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The GPU is mobile, GTX 775M. The CPU is desktop but only 4 core, no option to get the 6 core i7 desktop CPU without going to Mac Pro and jumping up to Xeon.

They couldn't offer 6 core i7s without a separate board design. Hex i7s would be something like Ivy Bridge E rather than Haswell. They're different sockets entirely, so Apple would either have to go Ivy Bridge E on the others or oem a second board type for that one processor option. Even the base mac pro is a quad. Now I would argue for $3000 it shouldn't be a quad, but that's another matter.
 
Goodbye, OP.

1. If you're "serious about gaming" (note the nonsensical nature of that phrase to begin with), you never would have purchased any Macs. Come on. Nothing has changed here.

2. nMP is one hell of a software development machine. I don't see any weaknesses at all other than its more than enough in several areas, depending on what you're doing. It's definitely a little pricey. If you'd argued that it's too much then I'd agree with you -- in most cases there is something cheaper that works as well for that case. What are you doing if you don't think it's good enough?!?

Sounds to me like you were a Mac fan and now you're kind of sick of it. That's fine. "Variety is the spice of life," and all that… Go get something else. You don't need to make up excuses.
 
So, you said you have a Mac Pro, and somehow you are looking to "buy" a Mac Mini for development work. LOL

No I didn't say that, more lol-trolls. I don't want an underpowered mini.

Why not wait and see what's possible with the nMP? Maybe Crossfire will work in Windows.

Yes I'm waiting. Maybe I'll be completely surprised and it will actually be worth $3k to anybody other than some tiny graphics segment of the market. Seems unlikely at this point. But I might just cave and spend a small fortune in computer terms on an overpowered development machine and underpowered gaming machine. Just so I can run three monitors in a mac desktop without a built in monitor.

I'm in your camp in many ways, but I think you're wrong about the 2006 MBP.

That computer is dead at the moment, ironically because the first generation SSD I put in died so I can't check. I remember it being 2006, but it doesn't matter, I do recall that it was the first generation Unibody MBP and it had the door with battery and drive accessible (and I just checked).

Regardless it is irrelevant, my point was that via screws, door or whatever at least most macs so far are more or less upgradable, if you're willing to do it.

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Goodbye, OP.

1. If you're "serious about gaming" (note the nonsensical nature of that phrase to begin with), you never would have purchased any Macs. Come on. Nothing has changed here.

Wrong, my MP is a fine gaming machine booted into Windows. Plus I can run OS X on it, a nice combination and saves having two computers.

2. nMP is one hell of a software development machine.

I didn't say it wasn't.

It's definitely a little pricey.

Uh, yeah, that's what I said, a little

Sounds to me like you were a Mac fan and now you're kind of sick of it. That's fine. "Variety is the spice of life," and all that… Go get something else. You don't need to make up excuses.

No, that's completely wrong, and you entirely missed what I'm saying, so p*** off really and don't put words in my mouth, thanks.

I'll say it again, for the hostile noobs who can't read what I'm saying. I love macs, I still love macs, I'd love to keep buying macs, but they aren't making a machine that I can get myself to buy, no matter how much I love them. They are going for the ends of the spectrum, the base consumer who just wants a machine they'll use until it falls apart, and the minuscule graphics professional market. They have no love for us in the middle, is my opinion.
 
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Yes, you can definitely get a good ownership experience from another platform. Will it be at the cost of a higher system administration load? Maybe, maybe not.

Will you be replacing/upgrading systems earlier? Maybe, maybe not. Your initial cost may conflict greatly with daily cost of ownership over the lifetime of the system in question.

Plus, there's the customer satisfaction issue. It is worth it to save a few bucks and have a less than stellar experience? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But pretty much every single customer satisfaction survey puts Mac owners at the top. Of course, this is aggregate/averaged ratings, not relevant to individuals.

Note that Mac ownership (in terms of percentage) has increased over the years; that increased user base is coming from other platforms (like Windows, Linux, etc.). It is not just Mac fans pumping up the ratings. Something like half of all new Mac purchases in bricks-and-mortar Apple Stores are from first time Mac buyers. Clearly, there is something driving Apple sales.

Same with iPhone sales. In early 2007, there were zero iPhone customers. Clearly, it's not Apple fanboys generating a few piddly sales.

Anyhow, do what you want. That's what the free market economy is there for.

In most cases, your primary objective is to get a system that will get the job done for the duration of the ownership of the device. Whether or not it puts a smile on your face is entirely up to you. A computer is a tool or appliance, like a toaster oven or an electric screwdriver. It's not a holy relic.
 
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All of the pre-unibody MacBooks and MacBook Pros had easy access to the hard drive.

I've got a uni-body MacBook Pro and it has very easy access to the hard drive. I have to remove about a dozen screws, but nearly the entire bottom comes out, two more screws, and the drive is out too. It's a lot easier than the plastic MacBook Pro I had prior because getting the screws out of the plastic one was a drag, and getting the metal piece off and back on straight took some doing the first few times I did it.

It was the iMac that ticked me off in the beginning because of the heat sensor and the whisper thin cable. I had an iMac repaired at an Apple Store (or where ever they sent it) that came back with a, what I can only say sounded like a broken sensor cable, problem with the fans running at top speed. Ready for take off...:(

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Perhaps he means 'MacBook', as in NON- MacBook Pro?

Easy access =/= door. And he said MacBook Pro.
 
I'm kind of in the same boat, although this time I've decided to invest in heavy upgrades to my 5,1 rather than get a new machine.

Got a 780 GTX modded from MVC and am very satisfied with it. I'm much happier being on NVidia than AMD (for several reasons). It's noticeably impacted Photoshop's performance and devours any game I throw at it, including Crysis 3 and Metro Last Light.

Upgraded the RAM to 24GB.

Upgraded the storage drives to SSHDs which eliminated the last traces of loading delays in OS X.

Got a blazing fast Mercury Accelsior E2 a while back as a boot/program drive.

Not bad for a 3.5 year old machine...

I'm just worried at what the future holds when it's finally time to retire this reliable workhorse. Will future models of nMP offer NVidia GPUs as an alternative? Will OWC, Sonnet or NewerTech design a functional expansion chassis that eliminates a lot of the cable clutter from hooking up a bunch of drives? Will drivers compatible with PCIe video cards continue to be developed now that all Macs use either embedded or proprietary GPUs?

If not, I might be pushed into building a Hackintosh, or build a powerful PC for gaming and work and a Macbook Air for portable and everyday use. I hope this isn't the case, but it may end up happening if things don't change.
 
That computer is dead at the moment, ironically because the first generation SSD I put in died so I can't check. I remember it being 2006, but it doesn't matter, I do recall that it was the first generation Unibody MBP and it had the door with battery and drive accessible (and I just checked).

Regardless it is irrelevant, my point was that via screws, door or whatever at least most macs so far are more or less upgradable, if you're willing to do it.

If you'd said "Unibody" instead of "2006" I wouldn't have wasted time arguing with you. Even without a "door," swapping out a unibody drive is easy.

But this is all thread drift. I'm like Demigod Mac, sitting with a strong 5,1 and wondering whether to invest in SSD and better video. The only thing that would push me to nMP is something like a big retina monitor that couldn't be driven by anything else. That's actually what I fear: retina displays (I just got an rMBP) are so friendly to my old eyes that I'd have to figure out how to afford whatever would drive one, just to be able to use it.
 
If you'd said "Unibody" instead of "2006" I wouldn't have wasted time arguing with you. Even without a "door," swapping out a unibody drive is easy.

But this is all thread drift. I'm like Demigod Mac, sitting with a strong 5,1 and wondering whether to invest in SSD and better video. The only thing that would push me to nMP is something like a big retina monitor that couldn't be driven by anything else. That's actually what I fear: retina displays (I just got an rMBP) are so friendly to my old eyes that I'd have to figure out how to afford whatever would drive one, just to be able to use it.

Displayport 1.2 supports 4K, so a video card upgrade would probably do the trick there. I'm very pleased with my upgrades. Slap an Accelsior in there and it'll feel like a modern Mac.
 
Really? Obviously you were'nt born when the 9600/350 was rockin hard.

Oh, I was around. Isn't this one of the first things SJ killed after he returned? ;)

EDIT: Yep...

Wikipedia:
In March 1998, to concentrate Apple's efforts on returning to profitability, Jobs terminated a number of projects, such as Newton, Cyberdog, and OpenDoc.

Power Macintosh 9600
Release date February 17, 1997
Introductory price 3700-4700
Discontinued March 17, 1998
 
nMP

I've waited and hoped, and while there's a chance this might make SOME kind of sense I'm seeing that it probably doesn't. I do software development and play games (booted into Win 7). This looks like a bad gaming rig with too much CPU and not enough GPU, but would make a lovely development machine. However, for $3,000? I don't get it, I have a hard time believing the "professional" graphics market is that big.

I suspect Apple has lost it's way, and any rate I'm forced to go Hackintosh or straight up PC. Maybe not surprisingly I hear more people who are in my camp, than those who are falling in love with their latest products.

Did you see the demo Pixar and The Foundry did running Mari?

Mari loves GPU. I had to upgrade mine just to use it. The fact that they were able to paint huge texture maps in all those channels and spin the model around effortlessly says a lot about the configuration options.

Now if you just do gaming it may not be ideal since workstation cards suck at gaming.
 
Did you see the demo Pixar and The Foundry did running Mari?

Mari loves GPU. I had to upgrade mine just to use it. The fact that they were able to paint huge texture maps in all those channels and spin the model around effortlessly says a lot about the configuration options.

Now if you just do gaming it may not be ideal since workstation cards suck at gaming.


The configuration demoed probably cost something insane. It's not like you'll pick up one for under $5k that performs like that. It also wasn't really quantified. I mean that didn't count as a measurable set of tests. It was just that relative to their past experiences, it performed extremely well. Considering the hardware wasn't even out yet, it should be impressive.
 
Apple only charges 80 pounds to upgrade from 4Gb to 8Gb of RAM on every MBA model at their store.

Yes, but you have to pay Apple's price on the system rather than a 3rd party price for the MBA. So for me 8GB of RAM on a Macbook Air, rather than 4GB, would cost £309 before I get VAT back. This is the problem with everything glued in as far as I'm concerned.
 
Exactly right. I have no idea what OP is describing, as it correlates with no 2006 MacBook Pro I've ever worked with. Maybe he's thinking of the non-Unibody white/black MacBooks, where the RAM and hard drive are easily accessible behind the little metal L-bracket after you remove the battery.

I miss that so much! I threw in an SSD into my whitebook and maxed out the RAM, used the machine for 5 years.

The flash PCIe storage on the 2013 MBAs / rMBPs are not soldered to the board, AFAIK. There will be upgrades available from companies like Other World Computing, eventually.

Maybe. I heard that the only PCIe SSD replacements for Macbooks were when they were apparently using a standardized slot a few years ago. They are now using a proprietary slot. I'm not sure if it's true.

One thing you have to worry about: Apple may be limiting the supply of 3rd party upgrades like they do lightening accessories or the way Intel limits Thunderbolt.

Apple has every reason in the world to force you to buy new computers instead of upgrade, and they have the DMCA to stop companies like OWC.
 
While I respect OP's decision, I would like to comment about their assessment of the current Mac lineup

Mac Mini

They took the discrete GPU's out so it's a $900 toy relatively

The 6330M has never really qualified as a discrete GPU. Current Intel's IGP offerings approach performance of a mid-range gaming card - why would you want a useless low-end one?

MBP

Glued batteries and soldered RAM, seriously? I've got a 2006 MBP that is going strong because I've upgraded RAM and disk. The SSD just crashed again, I'm updating it with a brand new one. Can't do that anymore. I could even replace the old battery if I wanted. This was the one that actually had a door on the back for easy swapping out components, remember that? What a great design.

Why are people complaining about glued batteries? Its cheap to go to Apple and ask them to replace it - and you only need to do it once in 3 years or so. Yes, replacing battery on yourself is slightly cheaper, but I don't see how few $ per three years make such a big difference. As to upgrades - RAM upgrades are simply less relevant these days and the macs already have SSDs which are faster then anything you could have possible installed there yourself.

iMac

Since it's hardly upgradable after the fact you have to BTO. Pricing that out for a minimum computer I'm at $2500, for a mobile GPU/CPU machine! Give me a break, plus who wants another screen? Not me.

The iMac has never been upgradeable. It uses desktop CPUs. Plus, the current iMacs use best CPUs/GPUs on the market, making it the fastest iMacs EVER. The top GPU on the iMac is faster than 95% gaming desktops on steam.


nMP

I've waited and hoped, and while there's a chance this might make SOME kind of sense I'm seeing that it probably doesn't. I do software development and play games (booted into Win 7). This looks like a bad gaming rig with too much CPU and not enough GPU, but would make a lovely development machine. However, for $3,000? I don't get it, I have a hard time believing the "professional" graphics market is that big.

Its a content creation machine. Its not for you ;) BTW, the GPU options are better than everything ever offered in the MBP so far.

I suspect Apple has lost it's way, and any rate I'm forced to go Hackintosh or straight up PC. Maybe not surprisingly I hear more people who are in my camp, than those who are falling in love with their latest products.

Quite in contrary, Apple is very true to its way - they are refining the concept of the personal computer for future generations. Current Apple machines are more functional and offer you more performance per buck then ever. And I barely see many people in your camp, there is merely a vocal minority on these forums who irrationally complain about lack of upgradeability.
 
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Mac Mini
They took the discrete GPU's out so it's a $900 toy relatively

I Agree the HD4000 is not all that hot. But the next Gen Iris is really pretty damn good and that will be in the next version.

MBP
Glued batteries and soldered RAM, seriously? I've got a 2006 MBP that is going strong because I've upgraded RAM and disk. The SSD just crashed again, I'm updating it with a brand new one. Can't do that anymore. I could even replace the old battery if I wanted. This was the one that actually had a door on the back for easy swapping out components, remember that? What a great design.

Every Manufacturer are copying this in some for or another. Of course you can go the separate component route, but that just makes it all heavier. SSDs are still way bigger and slower that PCIe. the batteries are custom and very thin. The MacBooks are what they are because they are sealed, Strong, light and thin.

And if you have replaceable batteries you also have the means of getting fake / poor quality and we all know where that an lead... KaBOOOM.

I can of course see your point. But it's the way it's all going. At some point mobile devices are going to going to be integrated single boards, probably with bonded batteries and be about 3mm thick. The same will happen with laptops as they continue to merge with Tablets.

The other thing of course why do you care about upgradability... laptops are obsolete in 4-5 years. Get the 3 year warranty. Buy the best and forget about it. It's tax deductible!!!!! The amount of people on here who moan about the cost of a workstation... I have a buddy that drives a London Taxi... It cost him £30K and another a builder who just bought a hoist for £25K.... It's a freaking tool to make you money.


iMac
Since it's hardly upgradable after the fact you have to BTO. Pricing that out for a minimum computer I'm at $2500, for a mobile GPU/CPU machine! Give me a break, plus who wants another screen? Not me.

Seriously it's not a Mobile CPU. And if you don't want a screen that this is not for you anyway... but it's for millions of other people.

nMP
I've waited and hoped, and while there's a chance this might make SOME kind of sense I'm seeing that it probably doesn't. I do software development and play games (booted into Win 7). This looks like a bad gaming rig with too much CPU and not enough GPU, but would make a lovely development machine. However, for $3,000? I don't get it, I have a hard time believing the "professional" graphics market is that big.

I suspect Apple has lost it's way, and any rate I'm forced to go Hackintosh or straight up PC. Maybe not surprisingly I hear more people who are in my camp, than those who are falling in love with their latest products.

Sorry, what?! The GPU is insane. Gaming?! Er.. you need to see the Pixar Demo of what it can do. Oh and the pro graphics market is massive, stupidly big. Printing, Motion graphics, VFX, Photographers, CAD, architectural viz. Previz. Editing. Compositing. Illustration, book design, car manufacturing, dcc... + many many more.

This is the way of the future Central core machine with external storage.. Studios can Share external cards via Thunderbolt without have 10 of them sitting in their machines not being used to their potential.

And lets put this in perspective...
The point is what do you need this power for as a Developer? Do you Create billion Entry DB's or Compile a Few million lines of code?
What were you doing in 2003 for example?

Apple’s new Mac Pro would rank as the 8th most powerful supercomputer on planet Earth in 2003

The insanity of it all is that the iPhone5s raw speed on Geekbench is 1400... my 2008 2.8 MacPro is 1530.

An iPhone almost beats out a 2010 Macbook Pro Even and faster than a mid 90s super computer!

The point is That if the software was there you and 80% of the world could probably do all your work on a iPhone, hooked up to an external monitor....

Even the gaming is nuts on the 5s - 156 Gflops
XBOX360 240 gflops
PlayStation 3 228.8 gflops

And this is doubling every year so the iPhone 6 should be faster than the 360... and potentially ( massive assumption here ) the one in 4 years if that continues... How many flops do you need.
 
I've been a huge Apple fan. I love their computers, under one hood you can run any OS you want, plus it's commercial UNIX. Great for development. However for the last four years each new hardware release has been a disappointment. I've got four MBP, two minis, a Mac Pro and lots of other gear. Now I have to conclude there's no good computer for me in their lineup.

I am pretty much in your camp. Apple is moving away from the power user/enthusiast market and replacing their machines with glued-together, disposable units. Here is where I am currently at;

1. I would like to replace my EyeTV/DVR machine, a late 2009 mini 2.66. Any new mini is going to kick my mini's behind in almost every way but I want better graphics than HD4000, 4600, 5000 or Iris.

2. Another EyeTV/DVR alternative is a 21.5 iMac with its perfect HDTV screen resolution. Having installed a WD 2TB Black HD and a Blu-ray reader in a 2010 iMac I just cannot get myself to spend $2000+ for a glued-together one with two RAM slots.

3. I just replaced my late 2008 15" MBP with a 2012 base one from B&H. For $2300 I've got a 2.3GHz, 16GB RAM and a 960GB SSD. Plus I can plug the Ethernet and FW that I use every day in without dongles. For sure the 2013 15" rMBP with 1TB storage is faster in several ways. It is also $1000 more expensive and less user friendly.

4. My 2010 MP 3.2GHz keeps on a tickin'. Mavericks boots from a 960GB SSD on a PCIe Tempo. With 24GB RAM it still benchmarks slower than my new MBP on both Geekbench 2 and Geekbench 3! I suppose that a 3.33GHz hexacore is the next logical step.
 
I am pretty much in your camp. Apple is moving away from the power user/enthusiast market and replacing their machines with glued-together, disposable units. Here is where I am currently at;

1. I would like to replace my EyeTV/DVR machine, a late 2009 mini 2.66. Any new mini is going to kick my mini's behind in almost every way but I want better graphics than HD4000, 4600, 5000 or Iris.

2. Another EyeTV/DVR alternative is a 21.5 iMac with its perfect HDTV screen resolution. Having installed a WD 2TB Black HD and a Blu-ray reader in a 2010 iMac I just cannot get myself to spend $2000+ for a glued-together one with two RAM slots.

3. I just replaced my late 2008 15" MBP with a 2012 base one from B&H. For $2300 I've got a 2.3GHz, 16GB RAM and a 960GB SSD. Plus I can plug the Ethernet and FW that I use every day in without dongles. For sure the 2013 15" rMBP with 1TB storage is faster in several ways. It is also $1000 more expensive and less user friendly.

4. My 2010 MP 3.2GHz keeps on a tickin'. Mavericks boots from a 960GB SSD on a PCIe Tempo. With 24GB RAM it still benchmarks slower than my new MBP on both Geekbench 2 and Geekbench 3! I suppose that a 3.33GHz hexacore is the next logical step.

For 1) I would get a used/refurb 2011 mini with the faster gpu. Upgraded a pair recently with twin hard drive kit 1tb SSD and maxed out the ram to 16gb. The 840 evo mini boots OSX in 9.6 seconds, the m500 slightly slower :D
 
The configuration demoed probably cost something insane. It's not like you'll pick up one for under $5k that performs like that. It also wasn't really quantified. I mean that didn't count as a measurable set of tests. It was just that relative to their past experiences, it performed extremely well. Considering the hardware wasn't even out yet, it should be impressive.

The cost is probably insane! Thats because it's a pro workstation. The old MP wasn't candy store money!
 
All of the pre-unibody MacBooks and MacBook Pros had easy access to the hard drive.

No they didn't. People are right about the 2006 Macbook Pro. There was no bay. It was a PITA to swap the hard drive and would actually violate the warranty it was so user inaccessible.

The MacBooks were entirely different, those were swappable. The Pros were not.

Source: I worked as an Apple tech.
 
No they didn't. People are right about the 2006 Macbook Pro. There was no bay. It was a PITA to swap the hard drive and would actually violate the warranty it was so user inaccessible.

The MacBooks were entirely different, those were swappable. The Pros were not.

Source: I worked as an Apple tech.

They sure were a pain, the SuperDrive too and if the case got dropped and bent near on the optical side a nightmare to eject properly. Keyboard much easier to replace than on a unibody though :D
 
The cost is probably insane! Thats because it's a pro workstation. The old MP wasn't candy store money!

That is just a silly argument. Workstations span a very broad range in price and configurations. I pointed out that if you are spending so much, the performance should be excellent. I suspect the new one will be more expensive for comparable performance.
 
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