Regretfully leaving the Apple camp

[N19h7m4r3]

Oh I was using price point on that. The 6 core was $3k, using a $600 cpu. Back when a 6 core initially came out at $3800, the chip was $1000. The D300s don't look that impressive. Note that even though the imac exists at a significantly lower price range, its top card has a 4GB framebuffer. I'm also curious what we'll actually gain from firepros on the mac side. Will they really have the driver refinement? I want to see what one is like without drifting into the $10k configurations, because I wouldn't be buying one of those. I'm specifically inerested in the value offered by the low to mid range models.

Surely it's best to wait and look at reviews, and breakdowns of the machines so you can make up your mind? It's a better choice than all that's going on in this thread, and then buying a new system before even having seen what the new machine can do in it's entry, and midrange segment.

 

[LongSticks]

Surely it's best to wait and look at reviews, and breakdowns of the machines so you can make up your mind? It's a better choice than all that's going on in this thread, and then buying a new system before even having seen what the new machine can do in it's entry, and midrange segment.

Concur Absolutely

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Oh I was using price point on that. The 6 core was $3k, using a $600 cpu. Back when a 6 core initially came out at $3800, the chip was $1000. The D300s don't look that impressive. Note that even though the imac exists at a significantly lower price range, its top card has a 4GB framebuffer. I'm also curious what we'll actually gain from firepros on the mac side. Will they really have the driver refinement? I want to see what one is like without drifting into the $10k configurations, because I wouldn't be buying one of those. I'm specifically inerested in the value offered by the low to mid range models.

That makes sense. I think its gonna be the 6 core! Dec 1st tomorrow - interesting times!

 

[tomvos]

That computer is dead at the moment, ironically because the first generation SSD I put in died so I can't check. I remember it being 2006, but it doesn't matter, I do recall that it was the first generation Unibody MBP and it had the door with battery and drive accessible (and I just checked).

Regardless it is irrelevant, my point was that via screws, door or whatever at least most macs so far are more or less upgradable, if you're willing to do it.

Just to put these sticklers ad silentium: I guess Cubemmal meant this machine:

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Unibody+Teardown/590

The Battery, HDD, and RAM was easily replaceable by the user.

 

[MayorQuimby]

To me there is a big diff between 'customize' (time of purchase) and 'upgrade' (later on)...regardless - no one can seriously argue that Macs are even remotely reasonable in price spec-wise.

 

[Irishman]

I've been a huge Apple fan. I love their computers, under one hood you can run any OS you want, plus it's commercial UNIX. Great for development. However for the last four years each new hardware release has been a disappointment. I've got four MBP, two minis, a Mac Pro and lots of other gear. Now I have to conclude there's no good computer for me in their lineup.

Mac Mini

They took the discrete GPU's out so it's a $900 toy relatively

MBP

Glued batteries and soldered RAM, seriously? I've got a 2006 MBP that is going strong because I've upgraded RAM and disk. The SSD just crashed again, I'm updating it with a brand new one. Can't do that anymore. I could even replace the old battery if I wanted. This was the one that actually had a door on the back for easy swapping out components, remember that? What a great design.

iMac

Since it's hardly upgradable after the fact you have to BTO. Pricing that out for a minimum computer I'm at $2500, for a mobile GPU/CPU machine! Give me a break, plus who wants another screen? Not me.

nMP

I've waited and hoped, and while there's a chance this might make SOME kind of sense I'm seeing that it probably doesn't. I do software development and play games (booted into Win 7). This looks like a bad gaming rig with too much CPU and not enough GPU, but would make a lovely development machine. However, for $3,000? I don't get it, I have a hard time believing the "professional" graphics market is that big.

I suspect Apple has lost it's way, and any rate I'm forced to go Hackintosh or straight up PC. Maybe not surprisingly I hear more people who are in my camp, than those who are falling in love with their latest products.

No, Apple hasn't their way, but I sense that they may have lost you as a target customer. Computers have moved beyond the hobbyist, nerd phase. They are mainstream devices that have become commoditized and/or aspirational appliances.

80% of computer buyers and users will never want or need to be able to get at the guts of their computer, and they don't select one over the other by its ability to be upgraded by the user.

And that's okay.

Build a Hackintosh. You'll find you're creating the OS X experience that will keep you interested, I'm betting.

 

[MayorQuimby]

For me - my iPad serves me well for all my basic web-browsing and entertaining needs. I even prefer it at times as you get almost no pop-up vids and flash auto loading on you.

But my MBP is for Photoshop, Lightroom etc....for the next person it might be Final Cut or it might be gaming. But to me that is the divide and so for Apple to make desktops more like iOS devices (based on aesthetics and overall experience) is to lose sight of what desktops really are - workhorses for unique but specialized needs. They are tools.

 

[handsome pete]

To me there is a big diff between 'customize' (time of purchase) and 'upgrade' (later on)...regardless - no one can seriously argue that Macs are even remotely reasonable in price spec-wise.

Sure they can. They've always been competitive in the workstation market.

 

[VirtualRain]

To me there is a big diff between 'customize' (time of purchase) and 'upgrade' (later on)...regardless - no one can seriously argue that Macs are even remotely reasonable in price spec-wise.

I don't think you've been keeping up on current events... Thanks to supply chain optimization, there's not really a base product where Apple is not extremely competitive, whether it's the iPad, MBA, or the nMP. Competitors simply can't make the same quality and similarly spec'd products for less.

 

[MayorQuimby]

I don't think you've been keeping up on current events... Thanks to supply chain optimization, there's not really a base product where Apple is not extremely competitive, whether it's the iPad, MBA, or the nMP. Competitors simply can't make the same quality and similarly spec'd products for less.

Bah - maybe for laptops but not desktops. We have over 20 Mac Pros at work and they have kernel panics, failed ports etc all the time. My own Mac Pro failed at year 4 and required a logic board replacement for $1,200 which I declined. My MBP has been going strong for 5 years however. Anyways - there is a never-ending flood of refurbs on the apple store something I have never seen as a "fanboy" over over 20 years.

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Lemme add....my brother spec'd out a PC jammed with an i7 4770, 240 gb SSD and 4tb standard drives, 16gb ram (1866), 3gigs graphics ram, bluray drive and the most reliable parts - almost all of which come with 3 yr warranties....and it will cost $1,400. That is about HALF what a comparable Mac Pro would cost presently and that is being optimistic. And I can always swap out...well...anything and upgrade individually which the NEW Mac Pro simply will not allow.

 

[VirtualRain]

Bah - maybe for laptops but not desktops. We have over 20 Mac Pros at work and they have kernel panics, failed ports etc all the time. My own Mac Pro failed at year 4 and required a logic board replacement for $1,200 which I declined. My MBP has been going strong for 5 years however. Anyways - there is a never-ending flood of refurbs on the apple store something I have never seen as a "fanboy" over over 20 years.

Have you changed topics?

Lemme add....my brother spec'd out a PC jammed with an i7 4770, 240 gb SSD and 4tb standard drives, 16gb ram (1866), 3gigs graphics ram, bluray drive and the most reliable parts - almost all of which come with 3 yr warranties....and it will cost $1,400. That is about HALF what a comparable Mac Pro would cost presently and that is being optimistic. And I can always swap out...well...anything and upgrade individually which the NEW Mac Pro simply will not allow.

Check out this thread if you doubt the price competitiveness of the nMP...
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1678850/

 

[MayorQuimby]

Same topic - leaving OS X and why.

 

[tomvos]

80% of computer buyers and users will never want or need to be able to get at the guts of their computer, and they don't select one over the other by its ability to be upgraded by the user.

And that's okay.

But how does an extendable and modifiable Mac oppose your 80% of the computer buyers? Even if you buy an "old" 5.1 Mac Pro, you get a machine which runs perfectly and does not force you to get to the guts of your computer. This always was a central marketing claim for the Mac … there is no step three.

 

[LongSticks]

Lemme add....my brother spec'd out a PC jammed with an i7 4770, 240 gb SSD and 4tb standard drives, 16gb ram (1866), 3gigs graphics ram, bluray drive and the most reliable parts - almost all of which come with 3 yr warranties....and it will cost $1,400. That is about HALF what a comparable Mac Pro would cost presently and that is being optimistic. And I can always swap out...well...anything and upgrade individually which the NEW Mac Pro simply will not allow.

And by the sound of it, that's a gaming rig to me. And the nMP is a workstation. With you quoting 20 MP's at work you know the difference between a self build and a workstation - Xeon, ECC etc!

Every system is a compromise at some level.

And what value in resale in 2-3yrs?

And of course there's also OSX - I suppose you have to put a value on the OS as well.

 

[MayorQuimby]

And by the sound of it, that's a gaming rig to me. And the nMP is a workstation. With you quoting 20 MP's at work you know the difference between a self build and a workstation - Xeon, ECC etc!

Every system is a compromise at some level.

And what value in resale in 2-3yrs?

And of course there's also OSX - I suppose you have to put a value on the OS as well.

I dunno - it seems like the right set-up for a photographer (me - Lightroom and Photoshop both have dif't needs). I don't game so that is irrelevant. As for resale - I try and keep my Macs for 5 years before replacement and by that time they've lost 85%+ of their value. I don't consider resale an issue unless you upgrade every 3 or fewer years.

One last thing - self-build systems my friends have are all super stable. The Mac Pros at work are not. Admittedly - they get tons of use so there's that. But Mac Pros should not be consistently crashing after one year and they do.

BTW the iMacs at work are a complete mess - based on my work experience I would never purchase one.

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I should add or reiterate - I am a diehard Mac FAN so my posts are really me just venting my frustrations with Macs in general - I feel like there is no reasonable computer for me to buy (that will suit my needs) and it is really strange to be honest.

 

[cube]

I'm going to get a mobile workstation. Macs don't cut it anymore.

 

[Irishman]

But how does an extendable and modifiable Mac oppose your 80% of the computer buyers? Even if you buy an "old" 5.1 Mac Pro, you get a machine which runs perfectly and does not force you to get to the guts of your computer. This always was a central marketing claim for the Mac … there is no step three.

The design aspect is what you're forgetting. Design comes first, and Apple engineers around the design.

This is not new.

 

[LongSticks]

I dunno - it seems like the right set-up for a photographer (me - Lightroom and Photoshop both have dif't needs). I don't game so that is irrelevant. As for resale - I try and keep my Macs for 5 years before replacement and by that time they've lost 85%+ of their value. I don't consider resale an issue unless you upgrade every 3 or fewer years.

One last thing - self-build systems my friends have are all super stable. The Mac Pros at work are not. Admittedly - they get tons of use so there's that. But Mac Pros should not be consistently crashing after one year and they do.

BTW the iMacs at work are a complete mess - based on my work experience I would never purchase one.

Agree about that being a good Adobe machine, just commenting on what I could see.

That's so weird. I was in an architecture practise on Thursday where they run 20 iMacs at least - 14 being used by draftsman and architects using Vectorworks. We were discussing the Haswell upgrade after the meeting as they are about to order 10 for the bigger GPU cards. And they haven't had an apple service call in over 20 months! Might be interesting getting a consensus!

Personally I have a 2011 MBP and iMac and not had a murmur in 2+ yrs and they are both on the go 11hrs a day, day in day out. But then we all have different experiences in life.

Talk to the windows fraternity about there issues as well! Got sick of the blue screen of death and got out - other than Bootcamp, professionally I have to stay on board!

 

[N19h7m4r3]

I dunno - it seems like the right set-up for a photographer (me - Lightroom and Photoshop both have dif't needs). I don't game so that is irrelevant. As for resale - I try and keep my Macs for 5 years before replacement and by that time they've lost 85%+ of their value. I don't consider resale an issue unless you upgrade every 3 or fewer years.

I think you're in the perfect place to switch to a cheaper Windows system if you want. Your applications work well on both OSX, and Windows so you don't have an issue.

I don't know about your area, but in Ireland Macs have silly resale value.
There are still some MP 3.1's selling for over €1000, and others can go even higher.

I was astounded to see people pay over €1000 for 1.1's, and 2.1's. Yet people buy them. People can be silly, but hopefully the resale value holds up when I want to sell the machine in my signature.

 

[Macsonic]

Apple has been changing and aligning the way they manufacture computers with minimal or almost zero user upgrades and repairs. That you'll need to purchase a new computer if you want higher specs. Since hardware components are built in or soldered in design, this becomes expensive for the user to upgrade. I'll conitnue using the classic tower Mac Pro and wait and see for new developments and decide if I'll continue using OSX.

 

[scottsjack]

Just to put these sticklers ad silentium: I guess Cubemmal meant this machine:

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Unibody+Teardown/590

The Battery, HDD, and RAM was easily replaceable by the user.

I've got one of those, late 2008 15" 2.4GHz CTD. I just replaced it with a new (three weeks ago) 2012 15" 2.3GHz from B&H so you can see where I am coming from.

My 2008 MBP has 8GB RAM that was not even available then. Its main HD, formerly Mavericks but now Snow Leopard is a 750GB WD Scorpio Black, also not available when I bought the MBP.

Additionally I have a separate HD for Window 8.1. W8.1 is supposed to run on my 2010 MP and does not but is not supposed to work on a MBP 5,1 and does. Go figure.

Anyway I thrive on changing stuff around and fiddling. The MP has four boot drives though it usually only has a 960GB Crucial M500 for Mavericks and a 2TB WD RE2 for Windows 8.0 mounted in it.

Glued-together equipment does not have the same pull on my credit card as user upgradable models.

 

[McGiord]

Some additional thoughts:
1- Wasn't Thunderbolt a nice expansion mechanism to allow adding devices? Obviously this is not nice for portable machines but for reviving or upgrading a Destkop is a nice possibility therefore you can add new stuff (e.g. better faster video card) or keep you old rigs and get a newer processor, monitor, etc...
2- The disposable nature of current iDevices makes kind of feasible to start seeing lease deals...pay as you go...or under a contract so the hardware gets updated...
3- The key is to exploit all the hardware capabilities with great software...OS and some software in other platforms really suck
4- Apple might be betting on online processing power instead of localized power for gaming
5- Why not game on a Console instead of a PC?
6- 3D scanning and printing is going to be huge, these will be the future main usage of all the hardware power they will be adding into new products
7- 4K and UHD will be out there and size does matter
8- When there are problems and the Macs are crippled there will be some emerging talent releasing nice new solutions for us to enjoy...and potential new acquisitions for the Apple master plan....Hopefully some are not bought just to silent them or shut them down...and some refuse to be bought by #

 

[jameslmoser]

But how does an extendable and modifiable Mac oppose your 80% of the computer buyers? Even if you buy an "old" 5.1 Mac Pro, you get a machine which runs perfectly and does not force you to get to the guts of your computer. This always was a central marketing claim for the Mac … there is no step three.

Not to mention that percentage probably doesn't hold true to people who buy the pro.

 

[koban4max]

maybe we have all forgotten the golden rule...don't buy the 1st gen of the new Mac Pro series...

 

[jameslmoser]

Some additional thoughts:
1- Wasn't Thunderbolt a nice expansion mechanism to allow adding devices? Obviously this is not nice for portable machines but for reviving or upgrading a Destkop is a nice possibility therefore you can add new stuff (e.g. better faster video card) or keep you old rigs and get a newer processor, monitor, etc...
2- The disposable nature of current iDevices makes kind of feasible to start seeing lease deals...pay as you go...or under a contract so the hardware gets updated...
3- The key is to exploit all the hardware capabilities with great software...OS and some software in other platforms really suck
4- Apple might be betting on online processing power instead of localized power for gaming
5- Why not game on a Console instead of a PC?
6- 3D scanning and printing is going to be huge, these will be the future main usage of all the hardware power they will be adding into new products
7- 4K and UHD will be out there and size does matter
8- When there are problems and the Macs are crippled there will be some emerging talent releasing nice new solutions for us to enjoy...and potential new acquisitions for the Apple master plan....Hopefully some are not bought just to silent them or shut them down...and some refuse to be bought by ��

As far as I know, you can't really upgrade a video card using thunderbolt... if you could then the new pro makes less sense since it already includes two proprietary (probably?) non-user upgradeable in the actual system while externalizing everything else.

Gaming on a console is okay, but a lot of people prefer PC. One big advantage to PC gaming is that you don't have to worry about being able to play your games every time you buy a new pc or upgrade your OS (usually). The console makers now aren't even trying to maintain backwards compatibility (which makes no sense since they are also trying to eliminate the used game market).

 

[thekev]

Surely it's best to wait and look at reviews, and breakdowns of the machines so you can make up your mind? It's a better choice than all that's going on in this thread, and then buying a new system before even having seen what the new machine can do in it's entry, and midrange segment.

This is all speculation to a degree, but I do take note of what's being used. Approximate clock and core specs for the various gpus have come up in the discussion. We know the cpus just by lining them up with Ivy Bridge EP offerings. At this point I'm interested in reading reviews that go into actual use rather than just benchmarks.

That makes sense. I think its gonna be the 6 core! Dec 1st tomorrow - interesting times!

I know they typically refresh the Apple Store site on Tuesdays here.

Every system is a compromise at some level.

And what value in resale in 2-3yrs?

That is going to depend on a few things. Bear in mind that storage is now proprietary, which tends to hurt. It may become available through channels like OWC depending on the installation process involved. It's not likely to be cheap though, and cheap matters when we're discussing used machines. People buy used to save money relative to the configuration. Long term reliability of those drives will matter quite a bit, as some users may push a lot of data through them, depending on how they're used. Refurbished pricing and availability can have an effect on this too. At 2-3 years, it may only be one generation back, which could boost its value somewhat. Since Haswell E drops the quad cores, core counts will shift down a notch in the scale unless Apple applies another price increase to the base configuration. Intel has maintained the $300 and $600 marks for some time, so that will probably continue.

I really have no idea how resale value will look. I'm merely pointing out things that might influence it. Typically the bigger the leap, the higher the devaluation of old technology, especially in the top tier configurations.