Regretfully leaving the Apple camp

[scottsjack]

For 1) I would get a used/refurb 2011 mini with the faster gpu. Upgraded a pair recently with twin hard drive kit 1tb SSD and maxed out the ram to 16gb. The 840 evo mini boots OSX in 9.6 seconds, the m500 slightly slower

That's good advise. Unless something really great gets released for 2013 the 2011 i7 looks like a better machine due to the GPU.

 

[LongSticks]

That is just a silly argument. Workstations span a very broad range in price and configurations. I pointed out that if you are spending so much, the performance should be excellent. I suspect the new one will be more expensive for comparable performance.

Maybe I should have said for a Pro Graphic Workstation then.....I don't see the point of the original comment even suggesting a $5k limit, even the old MP could be pimped to $20k + on the Apple store......or are we forgetting that? Also the new base $3k machine outperforms the old.....wont this continue through the new machine range?

There's a pretty big difference between $3000 and $10000+.

Again see above.

Ive posted here recently that I haven't decided between a Refurb MP or the nMP as my first move above iMac. I work in the Visualisation market - functional rather than high end, so I need the horsepower, not to Mari levels but I'm waiting to see what happens with the software vendors I use and whether they take on OpenCL.

My current only option in the UK is for OSX is the nMP as a new machine. Has been for quite a while. Have found a refurb that would at least give me RTB for a year, not ideal for a professional machine but hey.

So how much for the Mari demo equivalent - as we don't know the spec, I'm surmising, but lets say its high end - so that will lay me open to ridicule on here over actual requirements, but hey...

Mac Pro 3.33GHZ 12C 96GB 2TB
Condition:
Good overall condition
may have small marks and scratches on casing
Specification:

MacPro5,1 - 2 x 3.33GHz 6 Core Intel Xeon Processors
96Gb DDR3 ECC Branded Matched Ram
1 x NEW 2TB PRO Hard Drive
Wifi 802.11N
Bluetooth Installed
Superdrive DVDRW
FULL SIZE ALUMINIMUM KEYBOARD
APPLE MIGHTY MOUSE

I can get this for - £3695 = $6050

Still needs a PCIe SSD

Can't get the nMP to 96GB at the mo as the 32GB cards aren't freely available, but we can ignore that as the nMP Ram is quicker anyway and as Im theoretically spending $10k+ it would be 64GB.

There are no GPU's in the above quoted price, they fit what you want. I won't go for the W9000 which may or not be the D700 equivalent at $4000 each. Lets go for a recent CUDA card for a Pro Workstation - Quadro 5000 which has similar 4GB RAM as the alleged D700.

eBuyer - £2000 each so $3266 each =$6500

So my MP will be $6050 + 6500 + 600ish for the SSD = $12000+ and that is ignoring additional power etc to the 2nd card as the cost is small. Actual specs for the Mari machine may be different, so as I said before, I'm surmising.

It was always the way, MP has never been cheap if your buying out of the box specs from Apple. Ive been looking at other similar Windows Specs and they are all about the same.... I know the nMP is upgrade compromised, but I have other considerations in portability with nMP that I have to consider.

And before we go down the "you can mod up the MP over time to be what you want" - Mari are a commercial entity and so are only going to buy a from the box spec, the same as any commercial organisation. I'm viewing this in the same way, as my modding experience is limited to RAM, HD & a CPU once.

 

[theSeb]

That's good advise. Unless something really great gets released for 2013 the 2011 i7 looks like a better machine due to the GPU.

It's actually "good advice". Sorry, I have troubling and complex OCD issues when it comes to stuff like this.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Mac Mini-Even though a lot of people use it for work and production its still considered a consumer grade machine not targeted for professional use. So an integrated GPU is more then adequate for such a machine

Mac Pro-Never meant for gaming and would be a waste for such a high priced machine other then an occasional game every now and then. Workstation graphic cards make poor gaming cards.

MacBook Pro-Battery was designed to last the average working life of the machine ( 5 Years ) Which are much better then cheap PC Laptops. Making the battery not enduser replaceable makes it smaller and lighter.

Apple has every reason in the world to force you to buy new computers instead of upgrade, and they have the DMCA to stop companies like OWC.

DMCA covers content, not patents. It would be very hard for Apple to stop open standards, even with a proprietary connector unless they have a patent covering it and even then they may be required by law to license it out to third party vendors.

 

[sixrom]

I suspect Apple has lost it's way, and any rate I'm forced to go Hackintosh or straight up PC. Maybe not surprisingly I hear more people who are in my camp, than those who are falling in love with their latest products.

Eighteen up votes on this post as of this writing is a pretty strong indicator you're absolutely right. For years I've been using their computers and other items, sadly I must agree. When one appreciates and relies on them that long, then suddenly over just a few short years they change into a greedy mass market retail big box emulator, that says it all.

 

[sixrom]

Same with iPhone sales. In early 2007, there were zero iPhone customers. Clearly, it's not Apple fanboys generating a few piddly sales.

Never underestimate the power of Apples base, they can spread the word like wildfire and do so with the fervor of their original leader

 

[VirtualRain]

Quite in contrary, Apple is very true to its way - they are refining the concept of the personal computer for future generations. Current Apple machines are more functional and offer you more performance per buck then ever. And I barely see many people in your camp, there is merely a vocal minority on these forums who irrationally complain about lack of upgradeability.

Absolutely. People may not like it, but the nMP embodies all the values that Apple holds dear. The old Mac Pro was an abomination to Apple... A truck amongst sleek luxury sports cars. To use SJs own analogy. To not see this is to not truly understand Apple. Anyone that thinks Apple was ever about maximum flexibility, upgradabillity, or even mass market appeal, they do not understand Apple.

Mac Pro-Never meant for gaming and would be a waste for such a high priced machine other then an occasional game every now and then. Workstation graphic cards make poor gaming cards.

AMDs workstation cards perform very well in gaming (comparable if not better than their desktop equivalents). However, I agree, the nMP is not a good gaming machine, but more because the GPUs can't be upgraded.

 

[slughead]

DMCA covers content, not patents. It would be very hard for Apple to stop open standards, even with a proprietary connector unless they have a patent covering it and even then they may be required by law to license it out to third party vendors.

You're right, I was mistaken, Intel is using patent law to restrict licensure to certain products. However, the DMCA can be used in certain circumstances to limit compatibility of 3rd party products. Chamberlain attempted to use it a few years ago, not sure if there have been any other attempts since.

As far as "required by law" to license it, you and I both know they can use the licensure criteria to strangle the competition.

Quite in contrary, Apple is very true to its way - they are refining the concept of the personal computer for future generations. Current Apple machines are more functional and offer you more performance per buck then ever. And I barely see many people in your camp, there is merely a vocal minority on these forums who irrationally complain about lack of upgradeability.

If by "performance per buck" you mean price/performance, I think you're way off. It's only in very specific use-case scenarios (read: OpenCL) where the nMP is really going to justify its price. Of course, turning their machine into a non-upgradable appliance will further subtract from this.

Much better price/performance options can be had at a much lower cost. Trade-offs are key: Three SATA SSD in RAID 0 aren't the same as a PCIe SSD but price/performance is radically better. Using Sandy Bridge processors or even LGA2011 i7's over the Xeon E5 Ivy Bridge is slightly slower but price/performance is amazing.

Also, if you even attempt to factor in the added cost over PCIe for equivalent Thunderbolt options, the price/performance skews even more.

Even in OpenCL, I'd like to see what Three 7970 (~$1,000) can do Vs Dual D300... It could be the case that even in OpenCL the nMP price/performance lags behind many options.

TL;DR: If you can settle for a slight reduction in performance, OR depending on your use-case, the nMP falls flat for price/performance.

Absolutely. People may not like it, but the nMP embodies all the values that Apple holds dear. The old Mac Pro was an abomination to Apple... A truck amongst sleek luxury sports cars. To use SJs own analogy. To not see this is to not truly understand Apple. Anyone that thinks Apple was ever about maximum flexibility, upgradabillity, or even mass market appeal, they do not understand Apple.

So because Apple places value on things which I do not, I'm supposed to love all their products?

AMDs workstation cards perform very well in gaming (comparable if not better than their desktop equivalents). However, I agree, the nMP is not a good gaming machine, but more because the GPUs can't be upgraded.

Yes, AMD's workstation cards which are based on 2-year-old consumer graphics technology (like the W9000 / D700) do as well in gaming as... 2 year old consumer graphics cards.

Nobody's disputing that. The question is: can it keep up with the 290X, 780, 780Ti, Titan, etc--which can be got for a fraction of the cost.

Apple's saying the Dx00 justify the cost of the nMP. What if you don't use OpenCL, does it justify it then? I'd also like to see how much they end up charging for the D700. If there's no crossfire, the nMP is basically the equivalent of a mid-range gaming machine. Certainly decent, but people like OP are out in the cold.

 

[VirtualRain]

So because Apple places value on things which I do not, I'm supposed to love all their products?

Of course not, I'm just saying for those (like the OP and some others here) that seem to think Apple has lost their way... they were never going that way in the first place

Yes, AMD's workstation cards which are based on 2-year-old consumer graphics technology (like the W9000 / D700) do as well in gaming as... 2 year old consumer graphics cards.

Nobody's disputing that. The question is: can it keep up with the 290X, 780, 780Ti, Titan, etc--which can be got for a fraction of the cost.

Apple's saying the Dx00 justify the cost of the nMP. What if you don't use OpenCL, does it justify it then? I'd also like to see how much they end up charging for the D700. If there's no crossfire, the nMP is basically the equivalent of a mid-range gaming machine. Certainly decent, but people like OP are out in the cold.

Can't argue with you there, but I was responding to the assertion that workstation cards do not make good gaming cards which is false.

As for being 2 years old... I can't argue with that either, although the R9 and 780 are also based on 2 year old GPU designs as well... they've just got the benefit of better binning to eek more performance (higher clocks) out of them.

Apple is also benefiting from binning, but instead of higher clocks, it's likely using binning to achieve lower TDP. Different priorities I suppose and another reason why the nMP doesn't make a great gaming rig... it's priorities are different (quiet performance vs performance at any cost).

 

[slughead]

As for being 2 years old... I can't argue with that either, although the R9 and 780 are also based on 2 year old GPU designs as well... they've just got the benefit of better binning to eek more performance (higher clocks) out of them.

Fair enough, though the W9000 is virtually neck-and-neck with the 7970 Ghz edition. Granted, that's only 1.5 years old, not 2 years old.

However, the D700 is significantly underclocked. Will it perform similarly? Who knows. There's also the question of the TPD exceeding the possible 450Watt limit... though with no crossfire, this won't be a problem at all

 

[aristobrat]

Eighteen up votes on this post as of this writing is a pretty strong indicator you're absolutely right.

This thread has had over 4,400 views. 18 sounds like a really small number of up votes to be judged as a "pretty strong" indicator of anything!

 

[linuxcooldude]

As far as "required by law" to license it, you and I both know they can use the licensure criteria to strangle the competition.

Both yes and no. In Intel's case, i can't blame them licensing it out as they are the ones who came up with the technology and are still actively developing it, & probably eventually going from copper to optical for faster speeds.

It was also a collaboration with Apple who until recently had an exclusive licence. But even when it became available to PC computers still not widely adopted due to the high price in both computers and peripherals ( Primarily because its made for professional and not consumer use ) Even Acer dropped it because they are a budget brand.

So I don't see it in this case trying to out do their competition for a limited market anyway.

 

[slughead]

Of course not, I'm just saying for those (like the OP and some others here) that seem to think Apple has lost their way... they were never going that way in the first place

I guess I agree with this and disagree with OP then. I do feel that since the direction change Jobs brought about with the iMac in 1998, Apple has been moving slowly but surely to a disposable appliance model. Even with the iPod, Apple showed it really, really wanted people to throw them away and buy a new one.

Apple tried their hand with workstation and even server hardware for a while, and before long their lack of enthusiasm was reflected in dropping the Xserve, the anemic hardware updates for the MP, and joke of a RAID card.

Having noted all this, however, I refuse to frame the conversation in terms of what Apple wanted to do whether it be based on branding or profits. I want what I want, and that's not affected by Apple's design/marketing limitations. I am not an Apple-controlled automaton.

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This thread has had over 4,400 views. 18 sounds like a really small number of up votes to be judged as a "pretty strong" indicator of anything!

Considering the typical ratio of views to upvotes, I'd say it is.

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So I don't see it in this case trying to out do their competition for a limited market anyway.

Well in this case, the goal would be to in fact have zero market for nMP upgrade parts, so as to force users to buy a new one when their old one got too old. Perhaps they feel they've learned their less with the cheesegrater pro.

How many on this forum are using computers that are 3-6 year old. Inconceivable!

 

[thehustleman]

Yes you are getting things wrong, I'm not sure you read or understood my post.



I'm a developer and I want a high end machine; no refurb too. It's 600-$1k, I picked somewhere in the middle.



So what? The majority of PC makers aren't copying Apples design. I can still put RAM and a drive in one, to start.



Ur, yeah, that's my point. I was able to put an SSD in it, because that was a MBP that was upgradable. Get it? I'm complaining about the lack of upgradability of the newer ones? The 2006 actually had a door in the back making it easy to swap out a drive or battery (not RAM oddly, but at least that was swappable without too much trouble).



Do you want me to take a picture? Never mind, I won't be bothered. But yes I do have one of these and yes the drive can be swapped. Regardless my point is that when Apple used standard 2.5 drives they could be swapped in all of the models.



Wow, really not getting it. I'm not talking about some underpowered computer, I said when I specced out a machine I wanted it was $2500. That is, SSD, max RAM, i7 and not much else.



You obviously know nothing about gaming. lol yourself.

Smh, some people refuse to see faults of apple and if you find any they have to discredit you.


With that said you make very valid points.

If more people just took a stand and stopped buying apple would find a way to do thin AND upgradeable how a pc of that caliber should be.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Well in this case, the goal would be to in fact have zero market for nMP upgrade parts, so as to force users to buy a new one when their old one got too old. Perhaps they feel they've learned their less with the cheesegrater pro.

How many on this forum are using computers that are 3-6 year old. Inconceivable!

Computers become obsolete by newer technology all the time, so i'm not sure what you trying to do here.

There has even been some talk about Thunderbolt PCIe cards, but don't see the feasibility going to a slower protocol, even if thats possible may needing a Thunderbolt chip on the motherboard to support it.

In some cases Apple could not do it anyway because Intel did not support USB 3.0 on its chipset at the time for instance.

 

[slughead]

Computers become obsolete by newer technology all the time, so i'm not sure what you trying to do here.

I'm just saying a lot of people choose to upgrade the components as they start to feel their age instead of tossing out the whole box--as is demonstrated by the users on this forum. I'm also saying Apple is eliminating that, and there's reason to think they'll continue to. I also suggested (though am not 100% positive) that Apple can and will restrict upgrades towards this end. They definitely can, but will they and would they even need to?

There has even been some talk about Thunderbolt PCIe cards, but don't see the feasibility going to a slower protocol, even if thats possible may needing a Thunderbolt chip on the motherboard to support it.

Yes it's been vaporware by Intel for a while now. It also requires an internal Display port and special I/O connector on the mobo, as well as certain BIOS features.

I don't think it'll catch on. TB doesn't have enough widely-marketable advantages. I could be wrong.

In some cases Apple could not do it anyway because Intel did not support USB 3.0 on its chipset at the time for instance.

Intel doesn't support Six TB2 ports, either... Apple seems to have found a way . There are also more motherboard manufacturers out there than just Intel, too. I'm shedding crocodile tears for Apple and their "limitations" brought about by their laziness and unwillingness to do what was necessary to keep the MP up to date.

 

[kappaknight]

This soap box is getting so old... whether you feel you can or want a new Mac, that's a personal choice. Coming here to rally some troops to support your decision is obviously not working.

A lot of your arguments aren't valid anyway. Apple does allow you to upgrade. They're letting you get the SSD, one that is twice as fast as the industry norm. They're letting you max out the RAM, if you so choose. You may not like to have a pay a premium for it, but that's a different story. No, i myself do not like their new practice, but they do allow you to upgrade. They're not saying you're stuck with the 256MB 5400 HD - take it or leave it.

As for a perfect "development machine" - unless you're typing and issuing commands at the speed of SkyNET, a mini would do just fine. Your personal needs may actually be more than many of us; I can't be certain... but many of us have been able to make money just fine with the Macs that are in the market today.

It does seem like you want a $20K machine to fit in some crazy, Apple shell; for development. I'm honestly not sure why... Needs and wants are certainly different and while I too would love a 12 core nMP, I don't "NEED" it. That doesn't mean I should come out here to bash Apple for not making a capable machine cause I don't want to pay for one.

 

[LongSticks]

I'm just saying a lot of people choose to upgrade the components as they start to feel their age instead of tossing out the whole box--as is demonstrated by the users on this forum. I'm also saying Apple is eliminating that, and there's reason to think they'll continue to. I also suggested (though am not 100% positive) that Apple can and will restrict upgrades towards this end. They definitely can, but will they and would they even need to?



Yes it's been vaporware by Intel for a while now. It also requires an internal Display port and special I/O connector on the mobo, as well as certain BIOS features.

I don't think it'll catch on. TB doesn't have enough widely-marketable advantages. I could be wrong.



Intel doesn't support Six TB2 ports, either... Apple seems to have found a way . There are also more motherboard manufacturers out there than just Intel, too. I'm shedding crocodile tears for Apple and their "limitations" brought about by their laziness and unwillingness to do what was necessary to keep the MP up to date.

Laziness = innovative new design!! Behave.
Should probably be still all driving Model t fords with under chassis lighting and lowered suspension. No need to ever change something that works, that's pointless over engineering!

 

[thekev]

Maybe I should have said for a Pro Graphic Workstation then.....I don't see the point of the original comment even suggesting a $5k limit, even the old MP could be pimped to $20k + on the Apple store......or are we forgetting that? Also the new base $3k machine outperforms the old.....wont this continue through the new machine range?

It seems like you didn't pay attention to most of the statement and then compared it to the highest possible cto configurations. I try to avoid the nonsensical points by noting any cto options and leaving ram standard due to its markup and the ease of upgrading ram as necessary. It's not a given that the new $3k version will outperform the old. It's more likely that outside of the gpu, it will be almost flat due to going from a 6 core back to a 4 at that point. Bear in mind I'm using US pricing. Even after currency conversion and VAT there is some discrepancy between US and UK pricing.

An iPhone almost beats out a 2010 Macbook Pro Even and faster than a mid 90s super computer!

The point is That if the software was there you and 80% of the world could probably do all your work on a iPhone, hooked up to an external monitor....

Even the gaming is nuts on the 5s - 156 Gflops
XBOX360 240 gflops
PlayStation 3 228.8 gflops

And this is doubling every year so the iPhone 6 should be faster than the 360... and potentially ( massive assumption here ) the one in 4 years if that continues... How many flops do you need.

From everything I've seen, your numbers are way off between your 2008 mac pro and the 5s. Your 2008 should have another digit there. It would be closer if you were comparing single core performance. The 5s seems to be around G5 levels, which is still really impressive.

 

[phrehdd]

Apple is not about computers it is about making money. They have taken a path that they feel will give them the largest return on their product line. Do I like this? NO.

Self contained not-easily-upgradeable is a sure way to make sure that fans/devoties/Apple-loyal will have their systems for 2-3 years then buy the next "wow" machine.

Apple makes some impressive products and while at times I really hate the form over function facet, it evidently works well for Apple (until the masses wise up).

For me - Mac Mini and MP are more to my taste but that too may change if more guts get soldered in. The new Mac (mini) Pro will be an interesting release and I look forward to hearing from those that make the purchase.

The question that always comes to my mind is more about a 'what if' -

What if Apple made an iMac that had "slots" or a back that opens for drive upgrade and RAM?
What if Apple made the nMP with options for replacement/upgrade of the boards within (GPU and SSD as example) and provided Apple store service for doing the upgrades whether third party or Apple sold and charged 50 bucks to do the upgrade?

I can keep going on but the above is a major change in the dynamics and would extend the life of some computers much to Apple's chagrin. It appears Apple didn't mind the upgrade flexibility of the Mac Pro because it was a small market and didn't impact their bottom dollar very much. Given the power hungry craze we see today, it seems the MP too has fallen into the 'we want you to dump your system and get a new one in 2-3 years' model.

Depending on your taste and wallet, this may suit some just fine and for others, its a wall of frustration not having flexibility to really upgrade/custom their system after the purchase.

I'm waiting for the next Mac Mini to come out and hope I can still have the option to put in an SSD and it would be even better if the RAM limitation was increased (along with discrete GPU or at least the Iris Pro). While I am wishing, I would like to see Apple embrace the ability to send out HD audio not like the present models that are stymied to just Dolby and DTS.

 

[MayorQuimby]

Just saw this thread - ready to switch to PC myself. I was hoping the Mac Pro would sway me but I find it to be extremely disappointing.

It is so ironic how anti-Apple the new Mac Pro is going to end up being - it relies entirely upon external devices for expansion. I can only imagine the cluster-eff this will result in over time.

But I mostly feel like the o.p. I'll be heading over to Windows-land the next few weeks. Here's to hoping Apple pulls its head out of its rear (and lowers its prices a bit - the Apple premium for such non-expandable and flimsy hardware is ludicrous these days).

 

[sixrom]

This thread has had over 4,400 views. 18 sounds like a really small number of up votes to be judged as a "pretty strong" indicator of anything!

Whatever makes you feel good, it's just a matter of interpretation.

 

[OS6-OSX]

I won’t try and label the different camps pertaining to the nMP. I will say I am in the camp that does not want or need the nMP. After reading, “They’re letting you get the SSD…”, “They’re letting you max out the RAM”, and “but they do allow you to upgrade.” Letting, letting and allowing! With the nMP starting at $2999.99, Apple “letting and allowing” anyone anything sounds crazy! Is there a free nMP I don’t know about?

 

[LongSticks]

It seems like you didn't pay attention to most of the statement and then compared it to the highest possible cto configurations. I try to avoid the nonsensical points by noting any cto options and leaving ram standard due to its markup and the ease of upgrading ram as necessary. It's not a given that the new $3k version will outperform the old. It's more likely that outside of the gpu, it will be almost flat due to going from a 6 core back to a 4 at that point. Bear in mind I'm using US pricing. Even after currency conversion and VAT there is some discrepancy between US and UK pricing.

My actual response to your post in #77 was responding to your statement that the Mari preview machine wouldn't be one that was under $5K. It probably was a high end machine, but then you don't see many hardware demo's based on the budget system. A $10k system in that instance is highly probable. People would or should realise that.
One other point about that MARI demo - the software hadn't even been launched in OSX at that point. The demonstrator was commenting on the way MARI was behaving against their in house suites, which I believe are either Linux or Windows based. So the comparison was a pre-release nMP on a pre-release Mavericks on a pre-release MARI.......so its even more confusing and maybe impressive. But we also know from Apple history that they do stage manage these demos to the nth degree.....SJ and the original iPhone, so the comment from the MARI demonstrator would also be expected at WWDC.

I then went on to comment on handsome Pete's statement about the $10k + with an example of trying to purchase a possible an equivalent 12core machine based on an available to me 5,1, as a nMP alternative. Th old MP at that spec level was never that cheap, was my point.
Im still undecided which way to go next year due to software as well and hardware specs.

Going back to your new post, wasn't the MP 5,1 base unit also a 4 core? - http://support.apple.com/kb/SP652?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US. The 2013 Mac Pro comes with 3.7GHz quad-core Intel Xeon X5 with 10MB L3 cache, the 2012 Mac Pro has a 3.2GHz quad-core Intel Xeon W3565 processor with 8 MB of L3 cache. I will be surprised with the PCIe SSD and increased RAM speed as well, that there won't be a speed hike in the base model? Thats without any GPU advantage?

US to UK pricing discrepancy - well Im used to that!

Kev are you in the UK? A guess when you mentioned VAT. If so, have you used ScrumpyMacs at any point in the past? If so any comment?

 

[thekev]

My actual response to your post in #77 was responding to your statement that the Mari preview machine wouldn't be one that was under $5K. It probably was a high end machine, but then you don't see many hardware demo's based on the budget system. A $10k system in that instance is highly probable. People would or should realise that.
One other point about that MARI demo - the software hadn't even been launched in OSX at that point. The demonstrator was commenting on the way MARI was behaving against their in house suites, which I believe are either Linux or Windows based. So the comparison was a pre-release nMP on a pre-release Mavericks on a pre-release MARI.......so its even more confusing and maybe impressive.

That is true. I wasn't expecting it to be a base configuration or anything. I was just saying when you're up to something of that price range, it should be amazing for its time.

I then went on to comment on handsome Pete's statement about the $10k + with an example of trying to purchase a possible an equivalent 12core machine based on an available to me 5,1, as a nMP alternative. Th old MP at that spec level was never that cheap, was my point.
Im still undecided which way to go next year due to software as well and hardware specs.

Yeah I was a little grumpy in my response, as the response wasn't quite what I was initially arguing.

Going back to your new post, wasn't the MP 5,1 base unit also a 4 core? - http://support.apple.com/kb/SP652?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US. The 2013 Mac Pro comes with 3.7GHz quad-core Intel Xeon X5 with 10MB L3 cache, the 2012 Mac Pro has a 3.2GHz quad-core Intel Xeon W3565 processor with 8 MB of L3 cache. I will be surprised with the PCIe SSD and increased RAM speed as well, that there won't be a speed hike in the base model? Thats without any GPU advantage?

Oh I was using price point on that. The 6 core was $3k, using a $600 cpu. Back when a 6 core initially came out at $3800, the chip was $1000. The D300s don't look that impressive. Note that even though the imac exists at a significantly lower price range, its top card has a 4GB framebuffer. I'm also curious what we'll actually gain from firepros on the mac side. Will they really have the driver refinement? I want to see what one is like without drifting into the $10k configurations, because I wouldn't be buying one of those. I'm specifically inerested in the value offered by the low to mid range models.

US to UK pricing discrepancy - well Im used to that!

Yeah I don't envy that.

Kev are you in the UK? A guess when you mentioned VAT. If so, have you used ScrumpyMacs at any point in the past? If so any comment?

No but I am familiar with it. My sister used to live in London.