RTX Series Cards have Native Bootscreen Support!

[DearthnVader]

is there any chance this move make AMD think about adding UGA boot support on METAL compatible AMD card firmware? (at least the reference models)

UGA is an old and largely unused standard in the PC realm.

The cMP is aging, and we don't know, yet, what the MP7,1 will look like.

If the 7,1 has PCI-E slots, Apple may well adopt standard GOP PC graphics cards, killing, for the most part, the cMP as far as a marketable platform for graphics card vendors.

I don't think there is much likelihood that AMD will fallow nVidia's lead with these hybrid UGA/GOP option roms, but time will tell.

 

[flowrider]

Apple may well adopt standard GOP PC graphics cards, killing, for the most part, the cMP as far as a marketable platform for graphics card vendors.

It was left for dead years ago. The last Mac Edition card was the Nvidia GTX 680, released in March of 2012.

Lou

 

[DearthnVader]

It was left for dead years ago. The last Mac Edition card was the Nvidia GTX 680, released in March of 2012.

Lou

They didn't leave it for dead, they dropped the support side, for the pure profit side. Selling PC Cards to cMP users, without boot screen, and without any sort of official support.

 

[startergo]

They didn't leave it for dead, they dropped the support side, for the pure profit side. Selling PC Cards to cMP users, without boot screen, and without any sort of official support.

I am ready for testing

 

[Reindeer_Games]

They didn't leave it for dead, they dropped the support side, for the pure profit side. Selling PC Cards to cMP users, without boot screen, and without any sort of official support.

Well there is native support built into OS for the GTX 7XX series as well with some of the iMac's having them. I'm on a 2009 5,1 running a (MVC bootscreen modded) GTX 770 with excellent results up until Mojave. Now its very laggy and tempted by a Vega... a RTX 2070 would be Far more preffered though if drivers and acceleration ever become available/native in MacOS. I look forward to the web-drivers/OS update even more-so now!

EDIT: I meant native support in the OS-not native bootscreen.

 

[mavericks7913]

Well, it seems Apple does not allow Nvidia to release the driver for MacOS Mojave so far sadly.

 

[Dosahka]

The cMP is still a workhorse for gaming under windows. I see lots of people who don’t play games say it will be cpu limited but this is almost never the case. While some titles that execute on a single thread (ie 2010s Starcraft 2) experience more finite gains, almost all modern titles are designed to benefit from at least 4 cores. Furthermore, as resolution increases, the effects of cpu limiting become even less apparent. I’d recommend this article, published this year, which examined sandy bridge processors relevant to the various iterations of processors since 2011. It details lots of use applications, but if you look at the gaming sections you can see that very little separates an old processor from a new one, especially at 1440p or above.

Please do try to compare a 8700K (with 4 core enabled) with a 2700K pairing with the same graphics card.
I did it, 8700K(4 core enabled) vs 2700K both HT on with 1080Ti @1440p same liquid cooler, tested with every game we playing together (Wildlands, BF1, BF4) games were set to Ultra, vsync off, DX11, max fps set to 200.
the 8700K had like min 30 but sometimes 50-55 fps more, i bet it wasn't GPU limit...obviously i did it to prove him it's time to upgrade your gaming rig.

I wonder if RTX cards works with older firmware on 4,1/5,1 macs latest Mojave installed (if Mojave accept older firmwares)

Is it possible that RTX card works because of a flaw/bug in the new firmware on cMP 4,1/5,1?

I have a 2009 (8 core, 6GB RAM) 4,1->5,1 with Mojave (18B75) currently no use (shame isn't it?) but i gladly test an RTX card with older firmware and latest Mojave combo. But before anyone PM me (probably not) i'm living in London, UK.
Although i can test my 1080Ti in that rig, but i can only assume it wont work with latest firmware + Mojave 18B75.
There is an update to 14.2 (18C54), anyone tried with RTX card? what is the ROM version/build?

Update:
Also i've noticed since High Sierra 17G3025 Apple Hardware test on iMac 2010-2012 no longer works (DEC400 error), even if i try any recommended keyboard shortcut combo, or complete reinstall with the online recovery, yet still works with from the original CD.

I wonder if the non-EFI cards (only RTX for now) works and Apple broke the AHT (and god knows what else) in order to get it work.
For me it is hard to believe these are not relating to each other (but we are missing pieces).

Update:
Skipped a couple pages bc was reading too fast, sorry

 

[tsialex]

Please do try to compare a 8700K (with 4 core enabled) with a 2700K pairing with the same graphics card.
I did it, 8700K(4 core enabled) vs 2700K both HT on with 1080Ti @1440p same liquid cooler, tested with every game we playing together (Wildlands, BF1, BF4) games were set to Ultra, vsync off, DX11, max fps set to 200.
the 8700K had like min 30 but sometimes 50-55 fps more, i bet it wasn't GPU limit...obviously i did it to prove him it's time to upgrade your gaming rig.


I wonder if RTX cards works with older firmware on 4,1/5,1 macs latest Mojave installed (if Mojave accept older firmwares)

Is it possible that RTX card works because of a flaw/bug in the new firmware on cMP 4,1/5,1?

I have a 2009 (8 core, 6GB RAM) 4,1->5,1 with Mojave (18B75) currently no use (shame isn't it?) but i gladly test an RTX card with older firmware and latest Mojave combo. But before anyone PM me (probably not) i'm living in London, UK.
Although i can test my 1080Ti in that rig, but i can only assume it wont work with latest firmware + Mojave 18B75.
There is an update to 14.2 (18C54), anyone tried with RTX card? what is the ROM version/build?

Update:
Also i've noticed since High Sierra 17G3025 Apple Hardware test on iMac 2010-2012 no longer works (DEC400 error), even if i try any recommended keyboard shortcut combo, or complete reinstall with the online recovery, yet still works with from the original CD.

I wonder if the non-EFI cards (only RTX for now) works and Apple broke the AHT (and god knows what else) in order to get it work.
For me it is hard to believe these are not relating to each other (but we are missing pieces).

Mac Pro firmware has nothing to the RTX support, Nvidia made RTX GPUs compatible with GOP and UGA at the same time. RTX works with bootscreens with any MP5,1 firmware.

Read the thread, any possible scenario was tested already.

 

[Dosahka]

Mac Pro firmware has nothing to the RTX support, Nvidia made RTX GPUs compatible with GOP and UGA at the same time. RTX works with bootscreens with any MP5,1 firmware.

Read the thread, any possible scenario was tested already.

sorry, i just realised that i skipped a couple pages when reading myself through...

 

[jscipione]

If the 7,1 has PCI-E slots, Apple may well adopt standard GOP PC graphics cards, killing, for the most part, the cMP as far as a marketable platform for graphics card vendors.

I don't think there is much likelihood that AMD will fallow nVidia's lead with these hybrid UGA/GOP option roms, but time will tell.

It would be awesome if Apple were to put even just 1 PCIe x16 slot in the Mac Pro 7,1 but what are the chances of that happening? Everything the company has released up until this point has shown that Apple will NOT ship PCIe slots and will not ship Nvidia.

Don't get rid of your cheesegrater just yet we still have yet to see what the Mac Pro 7,1 is going to look like and what "modular" means.

 

[Reindeer_Games]

Please do try to compare a 8700K (with 4 core enabled) with a 2700K pairing with the same graphics card.
I did it, 8700K(4 core enabled) vs 2700K both HT on with 1080Ti @1440p same liquid cooler, tested with every game we playing together (Wildlands, BF1, BF4) games were set to Ultra, vsync off, DX11, max fps set to 200.
the 8700K had like min 30 but sometimes 50-55 fps more, i bet it wasn't GPU limit...obviously i did it to prove him it's time to upgrade your gaming rig.

...

A dual X5675 tray in a 5,1 will keep up with even an 8700K in 99% of case scenarios and that's why the old adage goes, "...if it ain't broke...". Yes, there are faster setups, but if you own this machine already-building a complete faster rig is Very expensive and comparable results can still be found in even this legacy tech. Hence, why this is such great news for those of us still running them faithfully-even when pushing their lifecycle. Apple may not be listening, but Nvidia obviously has their ear to the ground, IMO.

Additionally, when this tech came out everyone in the gaming community was dogging on multi-cores not being utilized, but most modern games recognize all 12 cores and some even hyperthreading at 24. I've never experienced a bottleneck beyond a hiccup yet, but I'm limited by my card- it isn't anywhere near 1080Ti or 2080.

 

[Reindeer_Games]

I can confirm that the Palit GeForce RTX 2070 8GB Dual (NE62070020P2-1060A) does have boot screen as well!

I'm booting with a 2010 27" iMac in Target Display Mode at 2560x1440 using a DisplayPort cable. I'm running 140.0.0.0.0 on the Mac Pro.

My system PCI Slots have:
Slot 4 - (Debroglie, Chinese brand) - Dual SATAIII to PCIe drive adapter with two Samsung 850 SATA SSD (booting from one of these drives)
Slot 3 - (Debroglie, Chinese brand) - FL1100 based 4-port USB3 PCIe card
Slot 2 - (Debroglie, Chinese brand) - Simple PCIe 4x to NVMe adapter, no NVMe drive right now
Slot 1 - Palit GeForce RTX 2070 8GB Dual

Currently there's no driver support in Mojave, so the card is listed as a 22MB Video Adapter. But I get the full 2560x1440 resolution on my monitor.

I can:

• Boot into Recovery Mode
• Boot into the Mojave installer from usb
• Boot regular Mac OS Mojave (if previously installed)
• Boot Windows 10 in EFI mode
• Install Mojave from usb after first patching the installer with Dosdude1's Mojave Patcher

I can't

• Boot Windows 10 in Legacy Mode
• Install Mojave from usb without first patching the installer. (It complains about "No Metal compatible card installed")

If there's anything else you'd like to know, I'd be happy to help!

Edited: 140.0.0.0.0-typo Thanks bsbeamer

Mac Pro firmware has nothing to the RTX support, Nvidia made RTX GPUs compatible with GOP and UGA at the same time. RTX works with bootscreens with any MP5,1 firmware.

Read the thread, any possible scenario was tested already.

OK, so from my lame understanding (non-coder schema)-the RTX series could currently be used daily in Windows 10, but only in EFI mode?

Am I mistaken, I thought UEFI mode wasn't supported in Windows in the 5,1? I've previously only dealt with legacy due to Bootcamps native use. From my understanding of the differences, I'd need to reimage a drive in Windows 10.0.17134 to achieve an EFI mode install? (Included version due to MS removing UEFI settings within OS at some point).

I know its off topic, but really I'm looking to see if people are actually using the RTX's daily- or just using them for code development/R&D at this point? I'm tracking no macOS support-yet, but nobody has said anything about performance in a cMP yet is why I ask. How the card performs in the system is just as important as bootscreens-which is still awesome!

 

[tommy chen]

It would be awesome if Apple were to put even just 1 PCIe x16 slot in the Mac Pro 7,1 but what are the chances of that happening? Everything the company has released up until this point has shown that Apple will NOT ship PCIe slots and will not ship Nvidia.

Don't get rid of your cheesegrater just yet we still have yet to see what the Mac Pro 7,1 is going to look like and what "modular" means.

modular means you can use 4 x eGPU, but no PCIe i think

 

[namethisfile]

modular means you can use 4 x eGPU, but no PCIe i think

Well, considering it's "Apple," modular could also mean "expansion slots." Like, how Apple calls motherboards, logic boards.

I mean, if I was to go inside the mind of an Apple chasis design engineer, then I would bet that they would somehow mold or merge the cMP and the nMP. So, what that means, I think, is that the "core" modular Mac Pro will be similar to the 2013 nMP. Not the shape, perse. But, just how it has a GPU that is its own form factor or non-standard. But, using a connecter like the one in the cMP, that connector that connects the cMP CPU tray--whatever that thing is called will be implemented in someway in the new modular Mac Pro--so, that another box that Apple sells separately can be connected. Either like a lego block connects to another lego block, or a cable, in which the box can then be stored further away from the user since the box will have more space for a standard PCIe GPU card anyone can buy.

This is probably why RTX cards have boot screens. So, 2019 Mac Pro should have Nvidia RTX compatibility as well as current AMD Vega and Polaris just like now with eGPU's.

And, my crystal ball says Apple will use Nvidia RTX card, perhaps a 2060 as base in the "core" modular Mac Pro. This is an MXM card though in the Qmax form-factor. But, the modular part with a separately sold Apple "box" can be bought wherein, the user can add regular GPU cards or NVME's through its PCIe slots.

So, to sum up, cMP + nMP = mMP!

Price will be $3000 for base mMP with RTX 2060

BTO is 2070 and 2080. All in that MXM or laptop card form factor.

The CPU is probably going to be like a Xeon E-2100 for the base....

Modular part is an Apple "box" for like $2000 probably with a 2080Ti. Or, $1000 empty. Pick your poison.

DIYing an Apple box will probably create a new business venture in 2019.

 

[Coyote2006]

So, to sum up, cMP + nMP = mMP!

Price will be $3000 for base mMP with RTX 2060

BTO is 2070 and 2080. All in that MXM or laptop card form factor.

The CPU is probably going to be like a Xeon E-2100 for the base....

Modular part is an Apple "box" for like $2000 probably with a 2080Ti. Or, $1000 empty. Pick your poison.

DIYing an Apple box will probably create a new business venture in 2019.

The price will go in line with the iMacPro:

Base iMacPro $5000
Base MacPro $3500 (+ $1500 for the new Apple monitor) = $5000

 

[jscipione]

Well, considering it's "Apple," modular could also mean "expansion slots." Like, how Apple calls motherboards, logic boards.

I mean, if I was to go inside the mind of an Apple chasis design engineer, then I would bet that they would somehow mold or merge the cMP and the nMP. So, what that means, I think, is that the "core" modular Mac Pro will be similar to the 2013 nMP. Not the shape, perse. But, just how it has a GPU that is its own form factor or non-standard. But, using a connecter like the one in the cMP, that connector that connects the cMP CPU tray--whatever that thing is called will be implemented in someway in the new modular Mac Pro--so, that another box that Apple sells separately can be connected. Either like a lego block connects to another lego block, or a cable, in which the box can then be stored further away from the user since the box will have more space for a standard PCIe GPU card anyone can buy.

This is probably why RTX cards have boot screens. So, 2019 Mac Pro should have Nvidia RTX compatibility as well as current AMD Vega and Polaris just like now with eGPU's.

And, my crystal ball says Apple will use Nvidia RTX card, perhaps a 2060 as base in the "core" modular Mac Pro. This is an MXM card though in the Qmax form-factor. But, the modular part with a separately sold Apple "box" can be bought wherein, the user can add regular GPU cards or NVME's through its PCIe slots.

So, to sum up, cMP + nMP = mMP!

Price will be $3000 for base mMP with RTX 2060

BTO is 2070 and 2080. All in that MXM or laptop card form factor.

The CPU is probably going to be like a Xeon E-2100 for the base....

Modular part is an Apple "box" for like $2000 probably with a 2080Ti. Or, $1000 empty. Pick your poison.

DIYing an Apple box will probably create a new business venture in 2019.

So what you are saying is buy a cheesegrater now and you'll be able to upgrade to a 2080 with bootscreen once they ship drivers sometime next year. Lose all hope for the 7,1 as Apple won't back down from their quest to lock down every Mac and won't allow expansion using aftermarket off the shelf cards.

 

[Flint Ironstag]

Additionally, when this tech came out everyone in the gaming community was dogging on multi-cores not being utilized, but most modern games recognize all 12 cores and some even hyperthreading at 24. I've never experienced a bottleneck beyond a hiccup yet, but I'm limited by my card- it isn't anywhere near 1080Ti or 2080.

I try a lot of games, but only play a couple long-term. I have never seen a game utilize 12 cores, much less 24. Please provide examples.

 

[Reindeer_Games]

I try a lot of games, but only play a couple long-term. I have never seen a game utilize 12 cores, much less 24. Please provide examples.

Doom (2016) is the most recent that I've played, and only recently noticed it recognized 24. I'll grab a screenshot-you have to set the stats setting to ultimate to see it though. It cycles the load on the cores pretty fast.

The Hitman reboot recognized 12 but wasn't hyperthreading natively.

EDIT: Uploaded Doom (2016) screenshots taken at 1440p Low settings Vulkan API rendered at 90% both high and low loads-as well as Assassin's Creed Origins benchmarking at 900p High settings DX11 at 100%.

Wasn't Hitman, AC Origins was what I was thinking.

 

[tommy chen]

apple will NEVER go back to nvidia cards

 

[namethisfile]

The price will go in line with the iMacPro:

Base iMacPro $5000

Base MacPro $3500 (+ $1500 for the new Apple monitor) = $5000

Not necessarily. The base Mac Pro in the past has always been in the $2500-$3000 arena. For example, the current Late 2013 nMP is $2999.

The reason why the iMac Pro is $4999 is probably an outlier more than the norm. It is in contrasting principle to the original idea of the iMac as “everyone’s” computer. The iMac Pro is not targeted to the same “everyone” anymore. Thus, the $2k markup as the “everyone” iMac.

While the Mac Pro is targeted at not everyone, as well, its target should be wider than that of the iMac Pro. Thus, why Apple will stay close to the $3K base price of the current Mac Pro lineup.

So what you are saying is buy a cheesegrater now and you'll be able to upgrade to a 2080 with bootscreen once they ship drivers sometime next year. Lose all hope for the 7,1 as Apple won't back down from their quest to lock down every Mac and won't allow expansion using aftermarket off the shelf cards.

It’s not about the relevance of the cMP5,1. It’s the evolution of Mac Pro in and of itself.

Apple will fix that “Thermal corner” they had encountered with the 2013 nMP by combining the “modularity” aspect of the cMP5,1’s CPU tray and that connector that connects it to the rest of the system. I don’t know what that is and seems like a proprietory but clever solution that made the cMP, a kind of early concept of “modularity.” The modularity in this respect with the cMP5,1 and 4,1 is that CPU-tray being removable, or, “modular.”

Look at that thing:

Doesn't that look "modular" to you?

My feeling is that a cMP + nMP = mMP (However you wanna interpret that)

In regards to keeping your cMP5,1 and buying an RTX card down the road? Well, that is not an issue. The issue is surrounding that card with modern architecture that will let it truly perform as it should without bottlenecks.

I also assume the mMP will have a T2 or T3 chip in it, in which case it might be used to authenticate third-party GPU cards. So, while an RTX card could work in cMP5,1, you will be stuck with beta Nvidia web drivers similar to in performance with current Pascal cards in High Sierra. As users of this setup will know, an RX580 is as fast as a GTX 1080 in this kind of setup.

So, a real mMP will be needed to fully unlock an RTX card.

PS—I don’t feel that an RX580 in a cMP5,1 currently in Mojave is unlocked anyway. I just feel like it works in the most basic level, TBH. But, of course, this is not a scientific analysis, just an observation having one…..

 

[Reindeer_Games]

It’s not about the relevance of the cMP5,1. It’s the evolution of Mac Pro in and of itself.

In regards to keeping your cMP5,1 and buying an RTX card down the road? Well, that is not an issue. The issue is surrounding that card with modern architecture that will let it truly perform as it should without bottlenecks.

I also assume the mMP will have a T2 or T3 chip in it, in which case it might be used to authenticate third-party GPU cards. So, while an RTX card could work in cMP5,1, you will be stuck with beta Nvidia web drivers similar to in performance with current Pascal cards in High Sierra. As users of this setup will know, an RX580 is as fast as a GTX 1080 in this kind of setup.

So, a real mMP will be needed to fully unlock an RTX card.

PS—I don’t feel that an RX580 in a cMP5,1 currently in Mojave is unlocked anyway. I just feel like it works in the most basic level, TBH. But, of course, this is not a scientific analysis, just an observation…..

Bingo. But I think most of us are always looking to stretch our bottom dollars as far as they can go. Apple's software has never truly exploited a GPU's full potential-mostly for more economical use of energy, i.e. longer battery life in their mobile platforms.

An RTX card now is meant in hopes of having a solution that can carry that investment over to a modular setup; whether that's a future Mac Pro or something else. Worst case scenario for most is a eGPU enclosure, and with the newer mobile chipsets getting better-a Mac Mini or MBA and a RTX 2080 in a eGPU will move some serious data.

 

[h9826790]

Doom (2016 )is the most recent that I've played, and only recently noticed it recognized 24. I'll grab a screenshot-you have to set the stats setting to ultimate to see it though. It cycles the load on the cores pretty fast.

The Hitman reboot recognized 12 but wasn't hyperthreading natively.

Sounds like you misinterpret the CPU loading.

Even single thread apps loading can cycle across CPU cores, and switching fast. That's the CPU's load balancing, nothing about multi thread.

So far, I never see a game can really use more than 6 cores (consistent 600% CPU usage or more during game play).

 

[Reindeer_Games]

Sounds like you misinterpret the CPU loading.

Even single thread apps loading can cycle across CPU cores, and switching fast. That's the CPU's load balancing, nothing about multi thread.

So far, I never see a game can really use more than 6 cores (consistent 600% CPU usage or more during game play).

See prior post-for uploaded screenshots. It's always entirely possible-I'm human after all. LOL. I was referring to load cycling though, just in the sense of transitioning between low-high load scenarios.

If any processor is hitting max percentage, then its bottlenecking at the core-then your latency is going to go south fast. I've never seen 2400% in Windows-maybe 1600%. I don't really monitor macOS since I'm limited by the OS rather than hardware in most cases-except my current GPU. Which is why the idea of a RTX over a RX/Vega is such an exciting prospect if we could ever get some support from the manufacturers. Hopefully, as many have speculated in the thread, this didn't happen by accident, and I look forward to the day I can see a RTX and boot screen in my 5,1. LOL. Even if there is bottlenecking at the PCIE and you can truly never reach full load, your GPU will run under less high load stress- and less likely to need a power mod since a 2080 is already pushing 215w TDP.

I see AMD cards as an alternative, not a primary choice-but that's just my opinion due to how I use mine for both work and play.

 

[Reindeer_Games]

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_RTX_2080_Ti_PCI-Express_Scaling/6.html

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/R9_Fury_X_PCI-Express_Scaling/

Just figure I'd follow up on this since it's been brought up year after year, every time a new card comes out. Our systems are almost always GPU limited traditionally, as you can see with each card, they use a newer processor to test its ability to saturate a PCIe with minimal success. Only PCIe 1.1 has truly become absolutely obsolete-and modern cards shouldn't be limited by any hardware beyond a possible CPU restriction on a 16 lane PCIe 2.0 mother/logic board.

Spoiler-the 2080Ti has only a 3% bottleneck at peak, up from 1% of previous modern flagship cards.

In my honest opinion though a 2070 seems more than overkill, is less likely saturate the PCIe, is expensive enough, and would handle anything most reasonable people would trying to throw at it.

 

[Spacedust]

I just got RTX2070 from ASUS to test it and it's a complete failure.

It shows boot screen on DisplayPort and HDMI but it doesn't boot Windows 7 in legacy mode at all.

I've tried to put Windows 7 CD and boot it in EFI mode and it showed everything in nice large screen (normally there is just a tiny screen with older cards which freezes right after Loading).

It passed the Loading screen and showed "Starting Windows", but it freezed.