Should I leave apple ecosystem in light of CSAM?

[DeepIn2U]

You really need to review just what other cloud services actually do vs what Apple does today.
Actually do, not proposed.

I have. I think it is YOU that ness to review. Google implemented csam scanning on their servers almost 10yrs ago right before they launched Google Photos which had unlimited storage of device pics and videos synced to their servers via your Google account. Microsoft also does server scanning.

This was all in the original news post on this site that notified the world of Apple’s intention that was not mentioned in their last wwdc talking about iOS 15.

Have a good read on that original news article. Apple has postponed this far due to huge outcry and threat to disrupt sales.

 

[DeepIn2U]

The competition also didn't put up billboards that say "What happens on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone apple.com/privacy"

Yea I’m aware of that.

Yet you cannot be charged for wanting to do something and NOT doing it. You cannot be called a cheater by your wife or husband or spouse if you want to cheat and never do it. So you cannot blame Apple or call them out as NOt privacy focused for wanting to do something and NOT doing it.

So that billboard still stands as true, at least for now.

Prince Batman Song “if a man is guilty for what goes on in his own mind then give me the electric chair for all my future crimes”.

Regardless of Apples original intent the potential would’ve been grossly bad for democracy or all of us end users. Glad they chaise not to proceed, again for now. It’s apples move next.

 

[dk001]

I have. I think it is YOU that ness to review. Google implemented csam scanning on their servers almost 10yrs ago right before they launched Google Photos which had unlimited storage of device pics and videos synced to their servers via your Google account. Microsoft also does server scanning.

This was all in the original news post on this site that notified the world of Apple’s intention that was not mentioned in their last wwdc talking about iOS 15.

Have a good read on that original news article. Apple has postponed this far due to huge outcry and threat to disrupt sales.

Answer this: what does Google actually scan? Amazon? Dropbox? MS (One Drive)?

What does Apple actually scan

 

[crymimefireworks]

Yea I’m aware of that.

Yet you cannot be charged for wanting to do something and NOT doing it. You cannot be called a cheater by your wife or husband or spouse if you want to cheat and never do it. So you cannot blame Apple or call them out as NOt privacy focused for wanting to do something and NOT doing it.

So that billboard still stands as true, at least for now.

Prince Batman Song “if a man is guilty for what goes on in his own mind then give me the electric chair for all my future crimes”.

Regardless of Apples original intent the potential would’ve been grossly bad for democracy or all of us end users. Glad they chaise not to proceed, again for now. It’s apples move next.

You're right! If you want to cheat on your spouse but never do it, that's not cheating.

But it sure is concerning!

Apple announced its intention. When users balked, Apple declared them "confused". Finally Apple announced
"we have decided to take additional time over the coming months to collect input and make improvements before releasing these critically important child safety features.".

Apple is saying "I want to cheat on you, I'm going to cheat on you, I just haven't yet".

Yikes. Sounds like an abusive relationship. I'm not interested in games. I switched to Linux in September.

 

[DeepIn2U]

You're right! If you want to cheat on your spouse but never do it, that's not cheating.

But it sure is concerning!

Apple announced its intention. When users balked, Apple declared them "confused". Finally Apple announced
"we have decided to take additional time over the coming months to collect input and make improvements before releasing these critically important child safety features.".

Apple is saying "I want to cheat on you, I'm going to cheat on you, I just haven't yet".

Yikes. Sounds like an abusive relationship. I'm not interested in games. I switched to Linux in September.

I actually enjoyed this debate. I hoped you picked amongst the strongest and longest lasting distros for the best long term support.

Curious which Linux OS you’ll use on mobile.

 

[danny842003]

Yea I’m aware of that.

Yet you cannot be charged for wanting to do something and NOT doing it. You cannot be called a cheater by your wife or husband or spouse if you want to cheat and never do it. So you cannot blame Apple or call them out as NOt privacy focused for wanting to do something and NOT doing it.

So that billboard still stands as true, at least for now.

Prince Batman Song “if a man is guilty for what goes on in his own mind then give me the electric chair for all my future crimes”.

Regardless of Apples original intent the potential would’ve been grossly bad for democracy or all of us end users. Glad they chaise not to proceed, again for now. It’s apples move next.

Why would scanning photos be bad for democracy?

 

[mrex]

Why would scanning photos be bad for democracy?

Think about it on larger scale… Scanning images which has a certain ”tag” or giving more info when you have too many certain images… like some great leaders being puppets.

 

[danny842003]

Think about it on larger scale… Scanning images which has a certain ”tag” or giving more info when you have too many certain images… like some great leaders being puppets.

Why are we playing whataboutery?

 

[iHorseHead]

Why would scanning photos be bad for democracy?

You have a lot to learn about KGB, my friend.
All of those big corporations are a sham

 

[danny842003]

You have a lot to learn about KGB, my friend.
All of those big corporations are a sham

Huh?

 

[dk001]

Why are we playing whataboutery?

EU contries and even the US Government has inquired into using the CSAM / iMessage function to look for “other items”.
It isn’t “whataboutery” when these Governments are stating intent or inquiring how..

 

[danny842003]

EU contries and even the US Government has inquired into using the CSAM / iMessage function to look for “other items”.
It isn’t “whataboutery” when these Governments are stating intent or inquiring how..

And these governments could just as easily force Apple to do it without CSAM. It’s whataboutery.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Curious which Linux OS you’ll use on mobile.

Mobile Linux options aren't there yet. I bought a PinePhone to get a sense of the latest. It's not ready as a daily driver yet but it's on the right track, maybe a year or two out from being ready. Massively appreciate the devs who are leading the charge here, it is all thanks to their efforts that this is even a possibility. From watching videos of Librem phone it seems more stable but still not daily driver level.

 

[dk001]

And these governments could just as easily force Apple to do it without CSAM. It’s whataboutery.

Not true at least in the US. We have laws that prevent forced development. Apple used that as an argument in the San Bernardino case. If it is already built, repurposing is another matter.

 

[danny842003]

Not true at least in the US. We have laws that prevent forced development. Apple used that as an argument in the San Bernardino case. If it is already built, repurposing is another matter.

What laws are these? I’m fairly sure companies are forced to develop products to comply with laws all the time.

 

[zkap]

And these governments could just as easily force Apple to do it without CSAM. It’s whataboutery.

So in other words, nothing matters anymore? Just let it go? To use the same analogy for a hundredth time, if someone proposes a law saying anyone can routinely break into your home to see what you're doing, would you say that it doesn't matter because anyone can break into your home anyway, so why bother complaining about it being passed as legislation?

The point is one that originates from a well-established principle that something can be exploited and misused only if it exists. This is where Tim Cook was coming from when he said that some technologies shouldn't be created. This is not to say that exploiting an angle is impossible, it's just a lot easier if the technology is already in place, is widely accepted and people don't complain because they see it as something normal.

For a real-life example, compare China and any democratic society in Europe. This doesn't mean that people don't have their privacy violated in Europe, but it sure is a hell of a lot different.

 

[dk001]

What laws are these? I’m fairly sure companies are forced to develop products to comply with laws all the time.

The main one here is CALEA.
Here is a 2016 article that lays it out in reference to electronics and the Apple San Bernardino incident.

Why Apple is right to resist the FBI | TechCrunch

The FBI wants Apple to do something no private company has ever been forced to do: break its own technology. Specifically, the FBI wants Apple to build a new version of its mobile operating system (iOS, or GovOS) so that the contents of an iPhone can be removed from an iPhone used by Syed...

techcrunch.com

On top of that the US Senate tried to get a “must create a back door bill” into vote that thankfully failed.

Backdoor into iPhones would be required by law in proposed US bill - 9to5Mac

A bill being proposed in the US Senate would effectively make it a legal requirement for Apple to build a backdoor into iPhones. It would...

9to5mac.com

 

[DeepIn2U]

Why would scanning photos be bad for democracy?

Wel scanning photos in a stream = videos and timing could heavily affect who walks/prosecuted. A recent case definitely flipes in this regard. Democracy failed.

Dmeocracy as a voting system - for over 400yrs failed those continually photographed as it affected public opinion of what is right vs wrong what is acceptible and what isn’t.

Emmitt Till - nobody cared about his death until his mother said NOPE don’t change his appearance and open casket. The. The entire nation woke up! Took a GOOD look because beyond colour the action done was beyond almost anyone looking to comprehend.

What I mean by scanning photos isn’t just on a computer but with our own eyes - many nursery rhymes or caricatures are pretty close to evil not just for the intent but what they invoke by those not in-like of the subject.

I’m sure someone here in a the world your photos showing any non favoured practice of face or culture could lead to being jailed Simple as that. Yes it happens too.

 

[danny842003]

The main one here is CALEA.
Here is a 2016 article that lays it out in reference to electronics and the Apple San Bernardino incident.

Why Apple is right to resist the FBI | TechCrunch

The FBI wants Apple to do something no private company has ever been forced to do: break its own technology. Specifically, the FBI wants Apple to build a new version of its mobile operating system (iOS, or GovOS) so that the contents of an iPhone can be removed from an iPhone used by Syed...

techcrunch.com

On top of that the US Senate tried to get a “must create a back door bill” into vote that thankfully failed.

Backdoor into iPhones would be required by law in proposed US bill - 9to5Mac

A bill being proposed in the US Senate would effectively make it a legal requirement for Apple to build a backdoor into iPhones. It would...

9to5mac.com

So one is an example of building a new product rather than developing one for sale and one is an example where a bill didn’t pass and democracy did it’s work. Where the same would probably happen if the government was trying to spy on people.
However there back to the original point i made aren’t car manufacturers forced ro develop their products in a certain way, toy manufacturers, big pharma etc etc.
There seems to be this weird idea that the government is out to do these awful things but aren’t capable of doing it themselves. Surely a government bent on doing what everyone is terrified of could just say tech companies have to allow this scanning just as cars have to pass emissions tests etc.

 

[danny842003]

So in other words, nothing matters anymore? Just let it go? To use the same analogy for a hundredth time, if someone proposes a law saying anyone can routinely break into your home to see what you're doing, would you say that it doesn't matter because anyone can break into your home anyway, so why bother complaining about it being passed as legislation?

The point is one that originates from a well-established principle that something can be exploited and misused only if it exists. This is where Tim Cook was coming from when he said that some technologies shouldn't be created. This is not to say that exploiting an angle is impossible, it's just a lot easier if the technology is already in place, is widely accepted and people don't complain because they see it as something normal.

For a real-life example, compare China and any democratic society in Europe. This doesn't mean that people don't have their privacy violated in Europe, but it sure is a hell of a lot different.

I don’t even think your analogy comes routinely close. Nobody is passing a law saying you have to own an iPhone 🤷‍♂️ and nobody except on here is saying this is going to be used for anything other than the purpose Apple has laid out.

 

[dk001]

So one is an example of building a new product rather than developing one for sale and one is an example where a bill didn’t pass and democracy did it’s work. Where the same would probably happen if the government was trying to spy on people.
However there back to the original point i made aren’t car manufacturers forced ro develop their products in a certain way, toy manufacturers, big pharma etc etc.
There seems to be this weird idea that the government is out to do these awful things but aren’t capable of doing it themselves. Surely a government bent on doing what everyone is terrified of could just say tech companies have to allow this scanning just as cars have to pass emissions tests etc.

You are talking regulatory. Different ball game. The Government doesn’t develop, it contracts. This would be more like placing tech in a car that lets the Government eavesdrop on the goings on inside the vehicle. Emissions is regulatory; State and Federal.

That has been an ongoing conversation; data on your device is like a pc or office files. They are protected in some fashion (encryption and/or lock). To get this data the Judicial/Laws requires a warrant or subpoena. With technology like this it is possible they can look for specific data or data types en masse bypassing your devices protection, without a warrant and without your knowledge.

 

[danny842003]

You are talking regulatory. Different ball game. The Government doesn’t develop, it contracts. This would be more like placing tech in a car that lets the Government eavesdrop on the goings on inside the vehicle. Emissions is regulatory; State and Federal.

That has been an ongoing conversation; data on your device is like a pc or office files. They are protected in some fashion (encryption and/or lock). To get this data the Judicial/Laws requires a warrant or subpoena. With technology like this it is possible they can look for specific data or data types en masse bypassing your devices protection, without a warrant and without your knowledge.

It seems like some serious mental gymnastics to believe that a government hell bent on ruining democracy with CSAM wouldn’t be prepared to go to other extremes to do the same.

 

[dk001]

It seems like some serious mental gymnastics to believe that a government hell bent on ruining democracy with CSAM wouldn’t be prepared to go to other extremes to do the same.

Who says they aren’t.
Right now we are just looking at this one issue.

Think back to the NAS and Snowden. Think about FISA. Yeah, they do go to extremes.

 

[danny842003]

Who says they aren’t.
Right now we are just looking at this one issue.

Think back to the NAS and Snowden. Think about FISA. Yeah, they do go to extremes.

So CSAM has no negatives because they’re going to do it anyway. The world is only made better by locating nonces and democracy is in exactly the place it is now.

 

[Vlad Soare]

Actually, democracy is all about the will of the majority. And the majority of the population doesn't give a rat's ass about being watched and tracked, and would be very happy to trade freedom and privacy for perceived safety, especially when children are involved.
So, the CSAM scan doesn't jeopardize democracy. Quite the contrary, it is a product of democracy.
Unfortunately, democracy also means that smart people get to live in a world that's shaped and led by the stupid. Because the stupid have always had and will always have an overwhelming numerical advantage.