Should I leave apple ecosystem in light of CSAM?

[dk001]

I've been keeping my eye on some of the heavier (tech) sites that do some heavy digging into iOS and so far, crossing fingers, no additional pointers or code snippets that connect directly to the CSAM Tool have appeared.

Keep hoping it stays that way.

 

[WriteNow]

Still no announcement from Apple about what they plan to do wrt their on-hold spyware.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if the next announcement will be "We've launched it!!!!!"

I trust and like Apple less and less with nearly every passing day.

For me, there has been a long running problem that Apple has an amazing ability of doing some great things, and some things I positively hate. The last few months have not made that situation any better--and have probably put too much on my "Hate" list.

 

[VulchR]

I've been keeping my eye on some of the heavier (tech) sites that do some heavy digging into iOS and so far, crossing fingers, no additional pointers or code snippets that connect directly to the CSAM Tool have appeared.

Keep hoping it stays that way.

Actually I was hoping they would remove them. I won't trust Apple until they do.

 

[I7guy]

Actually I was hoping they would remove them. I won't trust Apple until they do.

What does "trust Apple" mean in your context? In my context, "trust" doesn't enter into the equation (because "trust" irrelevant and won't stop me from using and purchase products and services) and my next iphone is an iphone 14.

 

[jseymour]

Actually I was hoping they would remove them. I won't trust Apple until they do.

This ^^^^^

What does "trust Apple" mean in your context?

In the primary context of this thread: Trust Apple not to activate their on-device spyware once they figure they have large enough a captive audience. Perhaps you don't recall, but their spyware plans figured into a not insignificant number of people saying they would leave the Apple ecosystem, not move from Android to Apple, or not upgrade to iOS 15.

We moved from Android to iOS several years ago in large part because I felt we could not trust Google any longer. If I can't trust Apple, either, there's one less reason to deprive myself of the advantages Android offers over iOS/iPadOS. At that point it becomes merely a question of which satisfies my needs for a mobile OS better. In many respects that's Android.

 

[I7guy]

This ^^^^^


In the primary context of this thread: Trust Apple not to activate their on-device spyware once they figure they have large enough a captive audience. Perhaps you don't recall, but their spyware plans figured into a not insignificant number of people saying they would leave the Apple ecosystem, not move from Android to Apple, or not upgrade to iOS 15.

Ah. I'm not sure what a not-insignificant number of people means in context with 1.8B reported active Apple devices. I'm guessing most people won't care. While I won't be happy, and I haven't reached a final decision yet, it seems having my device scanned might be preferable to android. (and yes I'm flip flopping)

We moved from Android to iOS several years ago in large part because I felt we could not trust Google any longer. If I can't trust Apple, either, there's one less reason to deprive myself of the advantages Android offers over iOS/iPadOS. At that point it becomes merely a question of which satisfies my needs for a mobile OS better. In many respects that's Android.

CSAM for many, imo, won't be a make or break issue. MR forums posters a different story. For me, if android satisfied my requirements(objective and subjective) I would have been there.

 

[dk001]

Ah. I'm not sure what a not-insignificant number of people means in context with 1.8B reported active Apple devices. I'm guessing most people won't care. While I won't be happy, and I haven't reached a final decision yet, it seems having my device scanned might be preferable to android. (and yes I'm flip flopping)

CSAM for many, imo, won't be a make or break issue. MR forums posters a different story. For me, if android satisfied my requirements(objective and subjective) I would have been there.

There was far more pushback in the security, privacy, and State (Nation) sectors than there was here in MR.
I could be incorrect but I don't see MR folk convincing Apple to take a pause and do some additional evaluation.

Would be cool to have that influence though

 

[I7guy]

There was far more pushback in the security, privacy, and State (Nation) sectors than there was here in MR.
I could be incorrect but I don't see MR folk convincing Apple to take a pause and do some additional evaluation.

Would be cool to have that influence though

Having governments object is huge. And don’t get me wrong I am totally against this, it’s just that I’m not ready to go “nuclear” should this badly thought out
Plan come to pass.

 

[twdawson]

I have always stuck my the way of TNO.
TRUST NO ONE.

 

[VulchR]

What does "trust Apple" mean in your context? In my context, "trust" doesn't enter into the equation (because "trust" irrelevant and won't stop me from using and purchase products and services) and my next iphone is an iphone 14.

Apple positioned itself from the onset with the Mac as company based on personal ownership and control of computing devices (remember the 1984 SuperBowl commercial? I do.). it has also positioned itself as only wanting to be involved in surveillance capitalism only insofar as customers explicitly allow it. Then they pull this stunt in which they install spying software in the OS of our mobile phones. Honestly this feels like a betrayal of the image promoted in their advertising over the last 4 decades. Even if the spying system is not currently active, there is no opt-out. The code is there on my iPhone taking up space uselessly, and will be there even if I never use iCloud, and the spying software could be enabled at any time by a misguided whim of the company.

Thus, for me the lack of trust means I am not upgrading my current phone or buying a new M1 laptop as I had planned to do. Indeed, my current iPhone might be my last Apple product. I have always had an admittedly irrational emotional attachment to Apple products since they have played such a central role in my work and personal life. Thus leaving the Apple ecosystem is a hard thing to contemplate since I have been using and enjoying Apple products since I did word-processing on the Lisa (OK, I didn't enjoy the Lisa so much, but my first Mac+ was a blast both in the lab and at home).

 

[MozMan68]

This ^^^^^


In the primary context of this thread: Trust Apple not to activate their on-device spyware once they figure they have large enough a captive audience. Perhaps you don't recall, but their spyware plans figured into a not insignificant number of people saying they would leave the Apple ecosystem, not move from Android to Apple, or not upgrade to iOS 15.

We moved from Android to iOS several years ago in large part because I felt we could not trust Google any longer. If I can't trust Apple, either, there's one less reason to deprive myself of the advantages Android offers over iOS/iPadOS. At that point it becomes merely a question of which satisfies my needs for a mobile OS better. In many respects that's Android.

“Not insignificant” equals “insignificant”.

The folks at Apple only care about optics since they didn’t do the best job explaining this before the initial announcement, but trust me, they have a “don’t let the door hit you in the ass” attitude for those claiming they will leave the ecosystem.

Even if one’s worst fears about this and Apple are even close to being true (they’re not), it’s still 10 times better than any other alternative.

 

[twdawson]

I still have my old iPhones on older versions of iOS that still have good battery life and still work perfect.
I could switch to one of those in an instant as soon as apple flicks the switch on this.

 

[WriteNow]

Ah. I'm not sure what a not-insignificant number of people means in context with 1.8B reported active Apple devices. I'm guessing most people won't care.

Unfortunately, I think Apple probably has enough customer base that won't leave that those who do leave will be a minor annoyance that won't have much if any influence on their final decision.

 

[WriteNow]

I have always had an admittedly irrational emotional attachment to Apple products since they have played such a central role in my work and personal life.

I think that is the case for many... It certainly has been the case for me. The first computer I seriously used was a Apple II series in my high school computer lab. The first computer I owned was a Macintosh, and I used Macs for years. It was hard gravitating to Linux, even though there were some good practical arguments at the time--and for a long time, I used a two computer model (an older Mac for productivity, and a Linux system for Internet). But I've thought going back to MacOS off and on over the years-and really seriously thought of this when the M1 Macs first came out. It's not been emotionally easy the last few months going from "I'd like a new M1 MacBook Air" to "I think I'd probably better plan to stick with Linux on dreary PC hardware."

 

[WriteNow]

@VulchR I really like your signature line (why 2021 will be like 1984)!

 

[VulchR]

@VulchR I really like your signature line (why 2021 will be like 1984)!

LOL - I had thought of other signatures about Apple's spyware that used rather blunt language, but I was afraid of being banned....

 

[agd21]

I’m not worried about this issue at all.

“Saying ‘I don’t care about privacy because I have nothing to hide’ is no different than saying, ‘I don’t care about freedom of speech because I have nothing to say,’”
Edward Snowden

 

[twdawson]

“Saying ‘I don’t care about privacy because I have nothing to hide’ is no different than saying, ‘I don’t care about freedom of speech because I have nothing to say,’”
Edward Snowden

I don't have anything to hide but I do care about privacy and I am super cautious about what goes online.
You have to be these days.

 

[SebCohen]

On principle, nobody should like this. It feels invasive. But living in a society is also about compromise and this is aimed at an actual problem. Is it a big enough problem that you have to control everyone?

I think this debate has more to do with the following. We don’t trust companies with information about us and we don’t like feeling our government is behaving like the Stasi. And we are not sure if company A or company B will use gathered information for only this thing specifically or if they are harvesting as much as possible for anything they can think of in the future. The police are allowed to search our homes, our digital life should be the same. It is then about reducing abuse of power and being in control of what companies collect.

What if we trusted a company to only do what they said they would and if they didn’t, they would be fined or otherwise punished? Would that change our opinion? Perhaps. Still don’t want anyone to just “look through my stuff” either. With these sort of things, you risk making regular citizens feeling they are being investigated, that they are doing something wrong and the result could be less openness, not more. Increased distance between those who rule and those that are ruled, not less.

 

[EPO75]

I am a new apple customer, recently joining from samsung and windows, now own iphone 12 and MBA M1. A number of factors made me move to apple, but two of the biggest ones are reliability and privacy.

And now the CSAM. I feel like i made the wrong move switching to apple.

Should I leave apple because of this CSAM thing?

Yes, please go.

 

[jseymour]

On principle, nobody should like this. It feels invasive.

Perhaps because it is invasive?

But living in a society is also about compromise ...

Where's the "compromise?" Unless what you really meant was "being compromised," which I do not accept.

I believe in fair trade--in all aspects of my life. I define "fair trade" as "value for value." Where is the value, to me, in allowing Apple to spy upon me as if it were a foregone conclusion I was a criminal? What do I get in return for submitting to this?

A fair trade, in this context, might be: I'd been convicted of trafficking in child pornography. Therefor I had two choices: No mobile devices at all, or mobile devices with spyware to ensure I wasn't able to do it again.

Is it a big enough problem that you have to control everyone?

Any time anybody insists any problem is big enough that control over everyone is necessary is the time to ask yourself "Just what are they really seeking to accomplish?"

 

[jseymour]

Some ask "Why do you no longer trust Apple?" Well, perhaps because of things like...

Last year, Apple told people they could stay on iOS 14 and still receive security updates, which meant you didn’t have to upgrade to iOS 15. Sadly, this didn’t last long—Apple is no longer updating iOS 14 and you have to be on iOS 15 to remain secure.

Full article: iOS 15.3.1—Update Now Warning Issued To All iPhone Users

Just screams "trust," doesn't it?

 

[MozMan68]

Edit: Missed second link…

Edit 2: Okay…if you read the article, she is making the same assumption as you that Apple would support security features on older iOS’s forever (or longer than 4 months), and they never said that.

The big announcement at the launch of iOS15 was that you didn’t have to update to iOS 15 to keep getting security updates “at that time”…not “forever.”

As she mentions, that time for overlap has come due with this update. This has allowed people more than 4 months to make the move from iOS14 (or older) to 15.

Again, no one ever promised you could stay on iOS14 and receive security updates forever…that was just an assumption. With the adoption rate of iOS15 (63% of every older device) where it is at currently, it makes no sense for Apple to continue creating iOS14 specific updates.

 

[dk001]

Edit: Missed second link…

Edit 2: Okay…if you read the article, she is making the same assumption as you that Apple would support security features on older iOS’s forever (or longer than 4 months), and they never said that.

The big announcement at the launch of iOS15 was that you didn’t have to update to iOS 15 to keep getting security updates “at that time”…not “forever.”

As she mentions, that time for overlap has come due with this update. This has allowed people more than 4 months to make the move from iOS14 (or older) to 15.

Again, no one ever promised you could stay on iOS14 and receive security updates forever…that was just an assumption. With the adoption rate of iOS15 (63% of every older device) where it is at currently, it makes no sense for Apple to continue creating iOS14 specific updates.

Sad thing is you are both right.
Apple didn't say one way or the other (this is becoming common with Apple) and it could be taken either way. Based on the pushback it made more sense to think of 14 access in longer term than the short term Apple allowed it. Looking at it from the $$$ perspective instead of privacy perspective, short term makes more sense.

 

[Bluetoot-]

“Saying ‘I don’t care about privacy because I have nothing to hide’ is no different than saying, ‘I don’t care about freedom of speech because I have nothing to say,’”
Edward Snowden

Well, he’s right, I don’t have anything to say. I’m honestly an ignoramus.