All iPads Should the iPad become a Mac Replacement?

[bcortens]

How is that nonsense? They were referencing a tool that’s used on macOS for resizing windows… I advise them they are better off using macOS.

You’re right, I was mostly assuming they were talking about the spirit of better window management rather than specific tools being important .

Huh? There’s gestures (4 finger swipe) to easily go between stages.


We‘ve discussed this before… you are accustomed to using App Exposé to manage windows as if you are using SplitView/SlideOver. But Stage Manager encourages you to learn to use the recent windows area… yet, you refuse to do so.

I don’t want to blindly switch between stages, I want to see my possible destination stages visually before selecting one. The recent windows area is not a way of quickly moving apps from my current stage to another stage, it is only a quick way of moving apps from “somewhere” to the current stage.

What I do now:
1. Open app expose from current group
2. Drag app from group to group

Stage manager:
1. Find my new stage by swiping back (better hope its one of the three most recent stages because the multitasking expose view is useless)
2. Hope that the most recent app is still in the list
3. Drag it from the list of recent apps to the new stage

The stage manager way is worse. It just is worse if a person (like me) likes to be able to see thinks laid out visually. I can learn it, I can use, just because it can be used doesn’t mean it is the best solution. My refusal to use it is because whenever I try I get frustrated by the inability to see things organized spatially, that is why I keep stage manager off most of the time, because it is more productive for me to be able to actually manage windows visually than to try and keep track of my most recent stages in my head (four finger swipe) or to try and make sure the window I need is going to show up in the most recent app list.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I feel that the limitations of Stage Manager (no coherent strategy for managing multiple stages) means that it is a less powerful way of managing windows than Split View, where I can easily manage multiple groups of windows, see those window groups and move between them.

True! I would find it more useful to just be able to lock an app into one side of the screen and have whatever the active window is just switch to the other side automatically.

Obviously I agree with everything else you said as well. Stage Manager feels like a workaround when an easier solution (from Mac) is sitting right there.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

We‘ve discussed this before… you are accustomed to using App Exposé to manage windows as if you are using SplitView/SlideOver. But Stage Manager encourages you to learn to use the recent windows area… yet, you refuse to do so.

YES! You have hit upon one of my issues exactly. I would rather use the dock. The “recent windows” is so redundant and a little weird. None of this is intuitive. Of course neither was the split view stuff either.

Try explaining it to an elderly relative. It is going to be a fun process. Meanwhile, I can tell my dad, just grab the title bar and slam it into the side (Windows) and it will take up half the desktop. Slam it into the top and it will take up the whole desktop.

 

[Ludatyk]

The stage manager way is worse. It just is worse if a person (like me) likes to be able to see thinks laid out visually. I can learn it, I can use, just because it can be used doesn’t mean it is the best solution. My refusal to use it is because whenever I try I get frustrated by the inability to see things organized spatially, that is why I keep stage manager off most of the time, because it is more productive for me to be able to actually manage windows visually than to try and keep track of my most recent stages in my head (four finger swipe) or to try and make sure the window I need is going to show up in the most recent app list.

We’ve discussed this before and it’s no point in rehashing the same dialog. You have a certain way you want things to be and unfortunately Stage Manager doesn’t work for you.

But on the topic of seeing things visually… how are you not able to see 4 apps paired in this one stage?

 

[bcortens]

We’ve discussed this before and it’s no point in rehashing the same dialog. You have a certain way you want things to be and unfortunately Stage Manager doesn’t work for you.

But on the topic of seeing things visually… how are you not able to see 4 apps paired in this one stage?
View attachment 2214667

As I keep pointing out, Stage Manager is more limited than App Expose for managing windows, yes I know you can manage windows with Stage Manager but it is more limited. I know it doesn’t work the way I want it to, but this thread, and those like it, are usually talking about what we want out of Stage Manager and whether or not we are satisfied with it. I do not want the iPad to become a mac replacement, but when they add new features that make it more powerful I don’t want it to become less powerful in other ways. You haven’t provided a compelling reason why the multitasking-expose view in Stage Manager shouldn’t work the way I want it to. Recent apps can still exist if the expose view is fixed.

Yes I can see that, but again, you’re assuming that the recent apps view is always going to have what I want in it. If it doesn’t again, the useless multitasking expose view is where i have to go.

 

[Ludatyk]

You haven’t provided a compelling reason why the multitasking-expose view in Stage Manager shouldn’t work the way I want it to. Recent apps can still exist if the expose view is fixed.

Why should I have to provide a compelling reason? It’s how Apple decided Stage Manager should work lol. If you care to manage windows in App Exposé… then so be it, disable Stage Manager.

But if you want to have 3 or more apps actively shown without being obstructed from viewing… then I’d advise getting accumulated to using the recent windows area.

Yes I can see that, but again, you’re assuming that the recent apps view is always going to have what I want in it. If it doesn’t again, the useless multitasking expose view is where i have to go.

And if the app not listed.. you can easily invoke spotlight to open it.

 

[bcortens]

Why should I have to provide a compelling reason? It’s how Apple decided Stage Manager should work lol. If you care to manage windows in App Exposé… then so be it, disable Stage Manager.

Because this thread is about whether or not we want to see the iPad become more Mac like and the way people want Stage Manager to work is relevant to that? The point of this thread is future iPad direction, not where Apple is right now… If you aren’t out to convince people that the current design direction is perfectly good as is why engage with others?

But if you want to have 3 or more apps actively shown without being obstructed from viewing… then I’d advise getting accumulated to using the recent windows area.

And if the app not listed.. you can easily invoke spotlight to open it.

Again, demonstrating that this is a worse way of managing large numbers of windows than what came before it…

 

[Ludatyk]

Because this thread is about whether or not we want to see the iPad become more Mac like and the way people want Stage Manager to work is relevant to that? The point of this thread is future iPad direction, not where Apple is right now… If you aren’t out to convince people that the current design direction is perfectly good as is why engage with others?

And I think you are missing the point. I currently use Stage Manager regardless of its flaws... it’s not perfect, I’m completely aware of that.

But most people take issue that because I use Stage Manager means that its without any flaws and I never said it was perfectly good. I use it because there’s no other alternative if I want to actively show 3 or more apps. And I’ve made it a point to never dismiss anyone claims that it doesn’t need improvements.

But that this is how Stage Manager is designed, thus I’ve accepted it and adjusted to it.

 

[bcortens]

And I think you are missing the point. I currently use Stage Manager regardless of its flaws... it’s not perfect, I’m completely aware of that.

But most people take issue that because I use Stage Manager means that its without any flaws and I never said it was perfectly good. I use it because there’s no other alternative if I want to actively show 3 or more apps. And I’ve made it a point to never dismiss anyone claims that it doesn’t need improvements.

But that this is how Stage Manager is designed, thus I’ve accepted it and adjusted to it.

So why do you keep disagreeing with me when I point out that it isn’t as good as it could be when it comes to window management and that the multitasking expose screen is kind of useless?

 

[Ludatyk]

So why do you keep disagreeing with me when I point out that it isn’t as good as it could be when it comes to window management and that the multitasking expose screen is kind of useless?

How am I disagreeing with you? I’m only suggesting to you how it’s designed to work.

And explaining my experiences with managing windows through the recent windows area and there’s no major issue with me doing so. Eventually Stage Manager might evolve to managing windows through App Exposé, but as of now… I’m using it as is.

 

[daneoni]

It can't be a mac replacement.

Multitasking still sucks and file system/peripheral interaction is mediocre at best.

 

[sparksd]

It can't be a mac replacement.

Not true for some people. It all depends on what their needs are.

 

[bcortens]

We’ve discussed this before and it’s no point in rehashing the same dialog. You have a certain way you want things to be and unfortunately Stage Manager doesn’t work for you.

But on the topic of seeing things visually… how are you not able to see 4 apps paired in this one stage?
View attachment 2214667

This is an example of you taking issue with my point about visual window management being worse, this example of yours is very easily read as trying to refute my point. Yes you can see this but this does not constitute good visual window management.

How is that nonsense? They were referencing a tool that’s used on macOS for resizing windows… I advise them they are better off using macOS.


Huh? There’s gestures (4 finger swipe) to easily go between stages.


We‘ve discussed this before… you are accustomed to using App Exposé to manage windows as if you are using SplitView/SlideOver. But Stage Manager encourages you to learn to use the recent windows area… yet, you refuse to do so.

This is also arguing with me - claiming I refuse to learn how it works.

 

[AnonymousCward]

An iPad can only replace a Mac in instances where you never really needed a Mac to begin with. An iPad truly capable of replacing a Mac would no longer offer the appliance-like experience which many non-technical and technical people alike love.

Examples of Mac functionality which iPads lack in the name of a “just works” design:

• Control over superuser, admin users and standard users
• Keep-alive of background network connections
• Support for optical media (DVD and Blu-Ray)
• Ability for users to install software from DMGs
• Support for homebrew/cask and ports
• Web browsers which use their own engines
• Time Machine backups and proper granular restores
• Keychain access, and the ability to import/export creds

Even downloading some files using BitTorrent (in the background) while doing other things isn’t possible on a vanilla iPad.

 

[Ludatyk]

This is an example of you taking issue with my point about visual window management being worse, this example of yours is very easily read as trying to refute my point. Yes you can see this but this does not constitute good visual window management.

I brought that up cause you have an issue with not seeing apps paired up in the recent windows area and I wanted to verify if that's the case.

This is also arguing with me - claiming I refuse to learn how it works.

When using Stage Manager you claim App Exposé (multitasking switcher) is useless… correct? Primarily, because you rather manage windows the same way you’ve done when using SplitView/SlideOver. However, Stage Manager is designed to use the recent window area to manage windows not App Exposé.

 

[bcortens]

I brought that up cause you have an issue with not seeing apps paired up in the recent windows area and I wanted to verify if that's the case.


When using Stage Manager you claim App Exposé (multitasking switcher) is useless… correct? Primarily, because you rather managing windows the same way you’ve done when using SplitView/SlideOver. However, Stage Manager is designed to use the recent window area to manage windows not App Exposé.

Again, this is how Stage Manager (at present) is designed, however, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a worse way of managing large numbers of windows nor does it mean the multitasking switcher/app expose is not pretty close to useless when stage manager is turned on.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Sort of....

The M1 is basically what would have been an A14X with a few extra bits such as thunderbolt connectivity, and modifications to the GPU cores to support the required Mac specific GPU formats (I think they moved to 32bit ALUs but I might be misremembering that). Around the time of the A9X people started to notice that Apple was catching up to Intel on single core performance (the 12" MacBook was comparable in CPU perf to the iPad Pro of that generation IIRC) and people began to speculate that Apple might be gearing up to replace Intel. It took a lot longer than that of course (A14 generation) but it did eventually happen.

Plus hardware that makes Rosetta 2 possible, plus desktop class RAM, desktop class storage that supports memory swap, and other stuff that makes a desktop computer possible. Just because the cores are largely the same doesn't mean everything else is.

But that was besides the original point. I was asking them, what is missing from the Macs that is a result of Apple Silicon originating on iPhone and iPad?

 

[bcortens]

Plus hardware that makes Rosetta 2 possible, plus desktop class RAM, desktop class storage that supports memory swap, and other stuff that makes a desktop computer possible. Just because the cores are largely the same doesn't mean everything else is.

But that was besides the original point. I was asking them, what is missing from the Macs that is a result of Apple Silicon originating on iPhone and iPad?

The fact that the A12Z (which is just a fully enabled A12X) ran macOS suggests that many of these things predate the m series by quite some time. I said the GPU cores got updates to support the macOS GPU modes.
Much of the rest of what you give as examples are not really that different between the AX series and the M series. I don’t get why people have this desire to see the M series as some sort of revolutionary change vs the AX series when it is clearly just evolution.
Disclaimer - Pro and Max chips are another story,

 

[Ludatyk]

Again, this is how Stage Manager (at present) is designed, however, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a worse way of managing large numbers of windows nor does it mean the multitasking switcher/app expose is not pretty close to useless when stage manager is turned on.

We might just be at an impasse. Yes, App Exposé (multitasking switcher) is useless when Stage Manager is turned on because you are attempting to manage windows from it.

And I currently have no major issue with managing large number of windows while using Stage Manager regardless of your thoughts of it being a worst way to do so.

 

[AustinIllini]

I can't believe we're still asking this in 2023. The Mac clearly is in Apple's future plans and there is less and less evidence iPad will take over.

 

[teh_hunterer]

The fact that the A12Z (which is just a fully enabled A12X) ran macOS suggests that many of these things predate the m series by quite some time. I said the GPU cores got updates to support the macOS GPU modes.
Much of the rest of what you give as examples are not really that different between the AX series and the M series. I don’t get why people have this desire to see the M series as some sort of revolutionary change vs the AX series when it is clearly just evolution.
Disclaimer - Pro and Max chips are another story,

Nope. That's the thing, the developer porting toolkit was absolutely not "just a A12Z". They had to bolt on a fair bit of stuff to make it run macOS, including but not limited to desktop class RAM, Rosetta 2 hardware, as well as dedicated hardware for the SSD to be capable of memory swap.

But again, not sure at all with what this has to do with my post that you quoted. You might want to read the argument that you inserted yourself into.

 

[bcortens]

Nope. That's the thing, the developer porting toolkit was absolutely not "just a A12Z". They had to bolt on a fair bit of stuff to make it run macOS, including but not limited to desktop class RAM, Rosetta 2 hardware, as well as dedicated hardware for the SSD to be capable of memory swap.

But again, not sure at all with what this has to do with my post that you quoted. You might want to read the argument that you inserted yourself into.

This just demonstrates you don’t know what RAM is… there is no difference between the RAM in an iPhone and a Mac today from a technical point of view.
The intel emulation hardware used by Rosetta 2 is part of the CPU cores, which means that it is almost certainly in the A14 as well. This is an addition that is rather major but it does not change the fact that fundamentally the M series is an evolution of the AX series rather than some revolutionary new design.

The flash storage controller is built into the A12Z SoC not some add on bit. Memory swap is present in every iPhone and has been fro a loooong time. Virtual Memory Support Memory swap is reserved for the OS in iOS but there is nothing technically that prevents iPhone from being able to use a swap file.

Your post said they did all this special stuff to make apple silicon for mac, and while there are special things they did, the list is shorter than you claim. The intel hardware emulation is one big one, the update to the GPU cores is another. Other than that, fundamentally, the M1 is an evolutionary change relative to the A12Z/X.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Your post said they did all this special stuff to make apple silicon for mac, and while there are special things they did, the list is shorter than you claim. The intel hardware emulation is one big one, the update to the GPU cores is another. Other than that, fundamentally, the M1 is an evolutionary change relative to the A12Z/X.

Again, you have inserted yourself into an argument between two others that you plainly didn't bother to read. I don't know what point you're trying to make, but it has nothing to do with the argument. It's kind of amazing that you come in here with this attitude and make these claims when they're actually irrelevant to the argument you butted into.

This just demonstrates you don’t know what RAM is… there is no difference between the RAM in an iPhone and a Mac today from a technical point of view.

There was a wonderful breakdown of the things Apple had to do to the A12Z this in one of the iPad threads a while back. I would bother to find it for you if you didn't have this attitude.

The intel emulation hardware used by Rosetta 2 is part of the CPU cores, which means that it is almost certainly in the A14 as well. This is an addition that is rather major but it does not change the fact that fundamentally the M series is an evolution of the AX series rather than some revolutionary new design.

Did I say it wasn't on the A14? No, I said it wasn't on the A12Z. But since you claim that, do you actually know that the A14 contains Rosetta 2 accelerators on the chip? Or are you just claiming that out of thin air?

The flash storage controller is built into the A12Z SoC not some add on bit. Memory swap is present in every iPhone and has been fro a loooong time. Virtual Memory Support Memory swap is reserved for the OS in iOS but there is nothing technically that prevents iPhone from being able to use a swap file.

They added extra hardware to the chip to implement the kind of memory swap a desktop environment requires. I never said it didn't implement a swap file.

 

[culo77]

I can't believe we're still asking this in 2023. The Mac clearly is in Apple's future plans and there is less and less evidence iPad will take over.

Why does it have to be one or the other take over? Why can’t both exist and even have overlaps of features and usage?

 

[StaceyMJ86]

I do not have a Mac, so my 12.9 iPad Pro is my Mac replacement. I don’t expect it to do the things that Mac can do. I do have a keyboard to use my iPad as a laptop. I do have a windows laptop, that I use every other month. I find that i even use my iPad Pro and iPad Mini 6, 75% more than I use my iPhone. I use my iPad to fill out and sign documents, watch movies, browse the web and do other things that the Mac can do, and I would still use my iPad as a laptop.