So did Apple give up on gaming?

[Ethosik]

Apple paying for a team to produce a game is both Apple AND the developer admitting “There’s really no money to be made on the Mac selling games.” Because if there WAS money to be made, the developer would just, you know, produce the game.

Same with any translation layer. It would be the developer saying “There’s really no value in producing anything specifically for the Mac and, since we have this translation layer, we never will!”

If there’s to be a healthy and growing games market on the Mac, it will have to be built by developers that see the value in the platform and put their own dollars on the line (in development and marketing) to make it happen. Anything else would simply be confirming that developing games on/for the Mac is not worth a developer’s time.

Thank you. At least someone else gets it on this site. I would devote time and resources on a macOS port of my game IF and ONLY IF the marketshare was much higher. Hardware? Don't care. It could be an RTX 3090 in the $700 M1 Mac Mini but if the marketshare is NOT there, I won't even consider a port of my game to Mac.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

By the time Nokia was being purchased, there were 3 years of devices in the market, and failure to court any large developers while both Apple and Google were charging ahead with their app ecosystems that were 2 years more mature.

There was a definite niche (outside the US) that was doing well, but there wasn't going to be any upwards momentum on that alone when not even big players that want to be everywhere like Facebook or Netflix wanted anything to do with the platform.

AH, I was looking just at Windows 10 devices so my info was from there.

List of Windows 10 Mobile devices - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Looking back at Windows Phone (rather than Windows Mobile) devices, I’ve found the list of 8 and 8.1 and it’s really kinda impressive that Microsoft could go from this to zero in less than 10 years.

Not a disagreement there. But things were already on the downward trajectory by the time Microsoft was producing their own devices under the Lumia brand. That's why I called it a hedge. It was a hedge against the other manufacturers abandoning the platform.

INCLUDING Nokia

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I'm surprised no one is making the case that there is a real game changer (sorry) here: a platform capable of very high performance without needing to be plugged in.

All AAA etc gamers today are hooked up with machines tethered to the socket. They may be used to it, because there was no alternative.

They currently have no alternative either, because the publishers have hardly bothered to write to the MacOS so far, but won't any of them figure it may be worth testing this new possibility? Is there really no market for untethered AAA gaming?

I’m with you, I agree it’s a game changer BUT the game it’s going to change is outside Apple’s playing field I would imagine that ARM-based solutions are looking a lot more competitive for the Windows consumer market than anyone would have thought a few years ago. Understanding that a vendor could design their own processor with VERY specific needs for VERY specific markets (think of something that effortlessly handles/records/transcodes multiple high resolution video and audio streams for those that stream… with no cumbersome external adapters) might be opening things up to interesting possibilities. The high end boutique system of the future may be an Nvidia ARM processor with Nvidia graphics (instead of Mali or even licensing some of Imgtec’s technology) where Nvidia works with developers to port their apps to their “Stream Producer” specialty platform. Hardware vendors would eagerly port their drivers understanding Nvidia’s behind not only the CPU and GPU but the motherboard as well… they might even give up front info to folks like Alienware so they can be first out of the gate with it.

Up until now unplugged PC laptops and high performance have been at opposite ends of the spectrum. Now that it’s a reality, even if NOT specifically in a non-Apple PC, the way has been set and others WILL follow. Even if it’s ONLY because Nvidia offers better OEM terms than Intel or AMD! LOL

 

[vir]

Not a game changer.

 

[diamond.g]

Thank you. At least someone else gets it on this site. I would devote time and resources on a macOS port of my game IF and ONLY IF the marketshare was much higher. Hardware? Don't care. It could be an RTX 3090 in the $700 M1 Mac Mini but if the marketshare is NOT there, I won't even consider a port of my game to Mac.

Would/can you port your game to iOS?

 

[Ethosik]

Would/can you port your game to iOS?

Not feasible. It requires a keyboard/mouse interface as it’s quite complex.

 

[Joe Dohn]

Not feasible. It requires a keyboard/mouse interface as it’s quite complex.

iOS supports bluetooth keyboards. Only the iPad supports a mouse, apparently, but the touch interface can mimic a mouse quite well.

 

[leman]

Think that's called a Steam Deck. Everyone is very excited about it. Nobody is interested in untethered laptop gaming. Especially $3500 ones.

Why would I be exited in an underpowered crappy handheld? What am I supposed tondi with it?

 

[Krevnik]

AH, I was looking just at Windows 10 devices so my info was from there.

List of Windows 10 Mobile devices - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Looking back at Windows Phone (rather than Windows Mobile) devices, I’ve found the list of 8 and 8.1 and it’s really kinda impressive that Microsoft could go from this to zero in less than 10 years.

INCLUDING Nokia

Yeah, those were some weird years. Not sure why the rebrand to “Windows 10 Mobile” happened, especially when Windows Phone 7 was a rebrand from Windows Mobile 6 and earlier, back when Windows Mobile was about chasing Blackberry and Symbian. I’m honestly surprised they gave it that last go before killing it instead of ending it with 8.1. But yeah, 4 yearly releases, and then a surprise rebrand release (10) when everyone had already stopped caring.

Fair, but at the time Nokia was also the one producing not only some of the better premium Windows Phone devices but some of the cheapest as well. The Nokia 520 was the best selling Windows Phone model world-wide, IIRC. Cheap, faster than Android at the time, but no 3rd party apps to speak of.

But even there, Microsoft was more met with indifference than hostility. I can’t imagine the gaming industry would be that kind today to Apple. Apple focusing on the mobile gaming space is honestly the best move they made in the last 10 years wrt/gaming. If anything, it lets them hone their skillset and APIs and let the Mac benefit from that experience.

 

[diamond.g]

Why would I be exited in an underpowered crappy handheld? What am I supposed tondi with it?

Play the games that developers have decided to not port to iOS or macOS (that can actually run on the device).

 

[mi7chy]

If I can recommend one which is a “real” game (I should say closest thibg to a AAA game) and actually an apple arcade exclusive then it is Fantasian.

Great if you like old school rpgs.

‎FANTASIAN

‎Fantasian by Mistwalker Corp. — From the creator of Final Fantasy, comes the next breathtaking adventure from industry legend Hironobu Sakaguchi. Fantasian is an exciting, new RPG set against a spectacular backdrop made from nearly 160 handmade dioramas that blends physical environments and 3D...

apps.apple.com

Sorry but that looks like a fusion of temple run + rpg mobile crapplet. Not even close to AAA.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Sooooo, you DO know that ALL Apple Arcade releases that are not of the “PLUS (mobile only)” variety already run on the Mac, right? So there are MANY developers already releasing Mac games on Apple Arcade. Additionally,they can ABSOLUTELY sell it somewhere else AND make more money on a wider PC or console audience, there’s several Apple Arcade titles that already do. They’re only limited in that they can’t produce it for Android. Which, is not a big loss because Android purchasers apparently don’t want to pay for games anyway.

Yes I’m well aware. And non of those games are worth having a Mac when I have a phone.
And you understand that games on Apple Arcade MUST follow a set standards and guidelines to be allowed to be published?
Kind of making a mockery of games as a serious medium by their statement:

We view Apps different than books or songs, which we do not curate. If you want to criticize a religion, write a book. If you want to describe sex, write a book or a song, or create a medical App. It can get complicated, but we have decided to not allow certain kinds of content in the App Store.

Why risk anything like the rejection of AAA games when you can design it however you want without it being curated for morality and offense? Steam is the benevolent ruler of games. Apple Arcade makes no sense if it can be on steam.

Why create potentially difrent versions just to have it on Apple Arcade when you can have one copy on all places?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

If I can recommend one which is a “real” game (I should say closest thibg to a AAA game) and actually an apple arcade exclusive then it is Fantasian.

Great if you like old school rpgs.

‎FANTASIAN

‎Fantasian by Mistwalker Corp. — From the creator of Final Fantasy, comes the next breathtaking adventure from industry legend Hironobu Sakaguchi. Fantasian is an exciting, new RPG set against a spectacular backdrop made from nearly 160 handmade dioramas that blends physical environments and 3D...

apps.apple.com

Sorry but that looks like a fusion of temple run + rpg mobile crapplet. Not even close to AAA.

Yeah, @l0stl0rd everyone knows that AAA has to have some kind of weapon jutting in from the lower right corner of the screen!

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Sooooo, you DO know that ALL Apple Arcade releases that are not of the “PLUS (mobile only)” variety already run on the Mac, right? So there are MANY developers already releasing Mac games on Apple Arcade. Additionally,they can ABSOLUTELY sell it somewhere else AND make more money on a wider PC or console audience, there’s several Apple Arcade titles that already do. They’re only limited in that they can’t produce it for Android. Which, is not a big loss because Android purchasers apparently don’t want to pay for games anyway.

Come back when we can play games like Halo infinity , dead space 3, dark souls, Skyrim, God of war,assassins creed, killzone, horizon zero dawn etc etc on Apple Arcade and we might talk. Untill then it’s just a place for nostalgic Mario like games and other simple games. Some of these would even be banned from the store as the guidelines are written today.

Imagen GTA, saint row as it’s written today or fallout with their heavy religious criticism, lovades sexual content or fallout with political satirens. I would Love Apple To just save me from myseld…. Instead of steam allowed me to play it….

 

[Erasmus]

If Apple won’t finance porting high profile games to Mac, then they definitely should port at least some of the biggest game engines.

Apple now has the hardware to run them, and there will be many more products, much cheaper, within 12 months. (iMac, Mini)

Making it cheaper and quicker for games studios to port to Mac is also a perfectly reasonable way of getting more games on the Mac.

I’m still hoping that ARM Windows 11 will get some native support like Boot Camp, at some point in the near future. It’s in both Apple and Microsoft’s interests to make that happen.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Yes I’m well aware. And non of those games are worth having a Mac when I have a phone.
And you understand that games on Apple Arcade MUST follow a set standards and guidelines to be allowed to be published?
Kind of making a mockery of games as a serious medium by their statement:


Why risk anything like the rejection of AAA games when you can design it however you want without it being curated for morality and offense? Steam is the benevolent ruler of games. Apple Arcade makes no sense if it can be on steam.

Why create potentially difrent versions just to have it on Apple Arcade when you can have one copy on all places?

I don’t know, you’d have to ask the developers that are making their applications available via Apple Arcade on the Mac (we agree that developers ARE making their applications available via Apple Arcade on the Mac, right?). Only they know why they’d publish their games there and, in some cases, on Steam, too. I’m guessing it’s because there’s a financial benefit to them doing it.

Could be wrong, though. Maybe they’re doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

If Apple won’t finance porting high profile games to Mac, then they definitely should port at least some of the biggest game engines.

I think the two biggest are already on macOS, Unreal and Unity. It’s really that developers don’t see the Mac as a large enough market to risk the additional dollars to code, test, troubleshoot, release and support a Mac version.

I’m still hoping that ARM Windows 11 will get some native support like Boot Camp, at some point in the near future. It’s in both Apple and Microsoft’s interests to make that happen.

It’s in Apple’s interest for developers to develop games natively for the Mac, if anything. Anything other than that doesn’t lead to a healthy and growing games market on the Mac.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Come back when we can play games like Halo infinity , dead space 3, dark souls, Skyrim, God of war,assassins creed, killzone, horizon zero dawn etc etc on Apple Arcade and we might talk. Untill then it’s just a place for nostalgic Mario like games and other simple games. Some of these would even be banned from the store as the guidelines are written today.

Imagen GTA, saint row as it’s written today or fallout with their heavy religious criticism, lovades sexual content or fallout with political satirens. I would Love Apple To just save me from myseld…. Instead of steam allowed me to play it….

Ok I will! Actually, I’ll be around so I won‘t be ”coming back” as much as “still chilling in the forums”.

 

[Jaekae]

Its to much work for the developers to write for arm and x86 windows/consoles. Many game engines are cross platform for x86 but not for arm. So think will take years until real games come to apple silicon

 

[Erasmus]

It’s in Apple’s interest for developers to develop games natively for the Mac, if anything. Anything other than that doesn’t lead to a healthy and growing games market on the Mac.

I believe it’s in Apple’s interest to minimise as many barriers to Apple Ecosystem entry as they can. Inability to run Windows apps without paying a hefty sum for Parallels middleware, and not even getting any assurance that it won’t be killed by either Apple or Microsoft at any moment, nor avoiding the performance penalties that virtualisation brings, is a big barrier to a lot of Windows users.

It’s in Microsoft’s best interest to sell as many copies of Windows as possible, plus as many of their apps as possible, including the ones that don’t run on Mac OS, like Visio or Project. Bypassing Parallels would be of benefit to them too.

 

[Erasmus]

I think the two biggest are already on macOS, Unreal and Unity. It’s really that developers don’t see the Mac as a large enough market to risk the additional dollars to code, test, troubleshoot, release and support a Mac version.

Are they AS native? I don’t know.

If they are, I still think Apple can do so much better in supporting the gaming industry, especially now they aren’t let down by the hardware.

Just a thought, I hope Apple aren’t against supporting AAA games because of the culture. It’s possible, as ‘gamer’ culture can undeniably be extremely toxic, and the polar opposite of Apples core social values.

 

[pmiles]

I believe it’s in Apple’s interest to minimise as many barriers to Apple Ecosystem entry as they can. Inability to run Windows apps without paying a hefty sum for Parallels middleware, and not even getting any assurance that it won’t be killed by either Apple or Microsoft at any moment, nor avoiding the performance penalties that virtualisation brings, is a big barrier to a lot of Windows users.

It’s in Microsoft’s best interest to sell as many copies of Windows as possible, plus as many of their apps as possible, including the ones that don’t run on Mac OS, like Visio or Project. Bypassing Parallels would be of benefit to them too.

Steve Jobs gave us the INTEL Mac. The first and ONLY Mac to truly be cross-platform in a box. Didn't change anything for gaming. Now you have the ARM Mac. Totally not cross-platform. The answer is right in front of you.

If America can't bother to switch to Metric after all these decades, they never will. Same goes for game developers. It just is never going to happen. It's never once been about the hardware. People always think it's because of the hardware. Not even remotely the issue. Which is why spending a mint on a Mac for gaming is an exercise in futility.

 

[Abazigal]

It’s in Apple’s interest for developers to develop games natively for the Mac, if anything. Anything other than that doesn’t lead to a healthy and growing games market on the Mac.

Which then raises the question - so?

The barriers to gaming on a Mac didn't stop it from taking off then, and I don't see the lack of games as an impediment to the continued growth of the Mac.

 

[vir]

What started the growth?

 

[Wildkraut]

I mean real gaming. Games like Cyberpunk, borderlands, fall cry 6, final fantasy XIV, world of Warcraft, minecraft… Not these arcade “games”.

It’s great their chips are faster and reduced power usage but compatibility matters. No nvidia discrete graphics card option is a mistake. A lot of software is only compatible with Intel/AMD chips. Software used in businesses where upgrading or finding alternative options that work with M1 isn’t an option.

It looks like Apple is more centered around the Hollywood/movie/music industry and not the business+gaming market which is a huge mistake to be a niche product. It’s also becoming harder and harder for enterprise businesses to manage their Mac fleet.

Is this experience shared or is my assertion mistaken? What has your experience been with these M1 chips in the business sector? Are there real games that work with M1 chips? Maybe I’m ignorant on the topic.

This isn’t my first post but it is. Had to make a new account for some reason.

No, your assertion is not mistaken, but Apple never cared for games, nor will this class of games ever work out for them. Apples hardware is simply too expensive, and not upgradeable.

Gamers needs upgradeable and repairable Hardware.
Most parents will just WTF if their kids comes and asks "Hey dad i wish me that Notchbook Pro for +/-2800€$ to play games"

The usual PC for Kids/Gamers cost around 1000€$ and get upgraded over its lifecycle with newer Graphics Card, more RAM, faster bigger SSD, maybe other hardware parts dies too and gets replaced.

And for publishers it simply does not worth to create a new AAA like Cyberpunk for Apple devices, that's why most macOS games that exists today are just outsourced ported older titles.