So essentially, with the new larger screens, we end up copying competitors.

[vomhorizon]

The 64bit architecture has nothing to do with trends. It is mandatory if Apple plans to merge iOS with osx in the near future or to create a tablet with laptop capabilities

And leaders over at apple have rubished this very thought (about merging the two OS's)..How was the entire biometric-loggin in expereince on mobile devices before the 5s? I am sure the technology flew off the shelves because it was so seamless and functioned so very well.

Apple's philosophy (whether one likes it or not) is too see whats wrong with a particular device and do it right (according to them) so that it gathers mass acceptence..Simplicity plays a pivotal role in their designs..They did not jump on the Tablet bandwagon as soon as the first tablet came out (that would be following into entry with a half baked device, something some other notable electronic giants are often guilty of), they also did not come out with an mp3 player or a smartphone as soon as someone else came out with theirs. Blackberry was long established player in the smartphone domain by the time apple came around to introducing the iPhone. Apple will not be "reacting" to the competition by releasing a larger phone, they have waited a long time and thought it out (reaction would have been when android phones with larger screens came out which was essentially many years ago) until certain things are ready for them to provide a better UX to its customers...None of the GalaxyS4's features that were so touted by Samsung were introduced into the next iPhone, yet the Galaxy S5 seems to be doing a lot of what the 5S and iOS 7 are doing (Fingerprint recog., 64 bit, Music streeming, Gold as a color)..Its not tough to see that the industry is taking cues about the future from what the market leader (in flagship device sales) is doing...this isnt much different from other industries like the automobile industry or televisions..

 

[C DM]

You do realize Apple was not the first phone with Touch ID? The implementation is near identical to what Motorola did back in 2011 on the Atrix.

The 64bit architecture has nothing to do with trends. It is mandatory if Apple plans to merge iOS with osx in the near future or to create a tablet with laptop capabilities. But, if I was going to copy hardware, it wouldn't be this.

Just like touchscreen phones existed before the iPhone came along and changed that whole mobile segment and the whole smartphone market, despite the existence of touchscreen phones before.

 

[woodynorman]

And now they're offering not only an android size equivalent, but also a phablet alongside it.
.

Wait. What?? I checked Apple's website and didn't see Apple offering anything bigger than the 5s.

Thats a bit of a premature statement I would say...

 

[kerrikins]

Some may see this as arguing semantics but I would say that in Apple's case it's more giving the public what it wants than 'copying'.

If Apple was copying then it would have knee-jerk rushed out a bigger phone as soon as the bigger phones hit the market. Instead it's been what, a good two, three years, and they went with the iPhone 5 over going even bigger like they could have? They're doing it because the market is saying that this is what they want.

I think people miss out on the difference between the decisions that Apple makes vs some of the other companies - if you look at the complete shift in phone design after 2007, there's no doubt that companies threw their existing designs out the window and went after the look that Apple had coined. That's outright copying . I worked at AT&T at the time and people like to deny it now, but there was a massive change in the tide that the iPhone started. Consumers at that point were more interested in a silver or gold Razr than in getting one of those 'business Blackberries'. I'm not going to argue that touchscreens didn't exist, but I am going to argue that Apple created the smooth, sleek consumer smartphone look that people went nuts for and all the other companies started replicating.

A lot of the decisions that Apple makes are much slower to come about and are, imo, much more driven by the company deciding 'okay, this is what is going to sell' than just pure copycat.

 

[Lloydbm41]

And leaders over at apple have rubished this very thought (about merging the two OS's)..How was the entire biometric-loggin in expereince on mobile devices before the 5s? I am sure the technology flew off the shelves because it was so seamless and functioned so very well.

Actually, the biometric function worked very well on the Atrix. Trying to equate the difference between a captive consumer and a consumer with hundreds of choices doesn't justify your conclusion that one is somehow better than the other. The word 'captive' is the key descriptor here. You could add a pile of steaming dog poo to the iPhone at purchase and make the exact same claim.

----------

Some may see this as arguing semantics but I would say that in Apple's case it's more giving the public what it wants than 'copying'.

If Apple was copying then it would have knee-jerk rushed out a bigger phone as soon as the bigger phones hit the market. Instead it's been what, a good two, three years, and they went with the iPhone 5 over going even bigger like they could have? They're doing it because the market is saying that this is what they want.

Steve Jobs had more to do with the phone staying small, than what the market demanded. The iPhone 5 was Jobs last device he had control over. Now with the iPhone 6 we hear of a larger device. Additionally, you don't believe the iPad Mini was a knee-jerk reaction to the 7" tablet market? After Jobs himself said that anything smaller than 9.7" would result in a person rubbing their finger down to the bone?

I think people miss out on the difference between the decisions that Apple makes vs some of the other companies - if you look at the complete shift in phone design after 2007, there's no doubt that companies threw their existing designs out the window and went after the look that Apple had coined. That's outright copying . I worked at AT&T at the time and people like to deny it now, but there was a massive change in the tide that the iPhone started. Consumers at that point were more interested in a silver or gold Razr than in getting one of those 'business Blackberries'. I'm not going to argue that touchscreens didn't exist, but I am going to argue that Apple created the smooth, sleek consumer smartphone look that people went nuts for and all the other companies started replicating.

Yes they did. Companies copied the iPhone look because it was successful. Just like companies copied the Blackberry look prior to that, because it was successful. And the flip-phone look, like the Razr V3, because it was successful. And the flat screen TV. And so on...

A lot of the decisions that Apple makes are much slower to come about and are, imo, much more driven by the company deciding 'okay, this is what is going to sell' than just pure copycat.

Maybe, maybe not. Arguments can be made for both sides.

 

[kerrikins]

Steve Jobs had more to do with the phone staying small, than what the market demanded. The iPhone 5 was Jobs last device he had control over. Now with the iPhone 6 we hear of a larger device. Additionally, you don't believe the iPad Mini was a knee-jerk reaction to the 7" tablet market? After Jobs himself said that anything smaller than 9.7" would result in a person rubbing their finger down to the bone?





Yes they did. Companies copied the iPhone look because it was successful. Just like companies copied the Blackberry look prior to that, because it was successful. And the flip-phone look, like the Razr V3, because it was successful. And the flat screen TV. And so on...





Maybe, maybe not. Arguments can be made for both sides.

If they're just copying, then why bother with the 5s and 5c? Surely they would have rushed out another model that was bigger in the meantime. I won't speak to the iPad Mini because that's not what this thread is about and I don't really know the tablet market.

Your second paragraph seems to be agreeing with me, so I'm not sure what you were getting at... Also, what I was trying to get at was that the first touchscreen smartphones that came out after the iPhone were so much like it, most people agreed that blatant copying was going on.

I guess to me, Apple had their chances to rush to a bigger phone a long time ago. They didn't. That's why I think it has more to do with seeing what people want than anything else. Now if you wanted to talk about things like the control centre, there I would agree that copying was going on.

 

[blairh]

Looking back in hindsight, when do you guys think Apple should have made the push and came out with a larger screen? Around iPhone 4 era?

Fall of 2012. When the iPhone 5 was released. A 4.7" model in conjunction to the 4" model would have been perfect.

I went from my iPhone 5 to an S4 Active and it was quite a revelation. That larger screen was a huge upgrade for me.

 

[Vanilla35]

Wait. What?? I checked Apple's website and didn't see Apple offering anything bigger than the 5s.

Thats a bit of a premature statement I would say...

Check again in November. You don't have to believe it now, but if you're smart enough, you can predict the future.

 

[vomhorizon]

Actually, the biometric function worked very well on the perceivable . Trying to equate the difference between a captive consumer and a consumer with hundreds of choices doesn't justify your conclusion that one is somehow better than the other. The word 'captive' is the key descriptor here. You could add a pile of steaming dog poo to the iPhone at purchase and make the exact same claim.

On what metrics are you describing its performance (genuine question since i never owned the particular device)..On the implementation into the software, security, time it took for the device to unlock, integration within the OS etc etc..??

You could add a pile of steaming dog poo to the iPhone at purchase and make the exact same claim.

Not really..Touch-ID for apple is not a pile of dog poo, its a well thought out feature involving not only the acquisition of a company whose technology in this domain was widely considered ahead of the competition (for such an application) and whose use apple intends to offer to a much broader feature set within the eco system. Their are plenty of things apple could have added that by themselves would have been a bunch of uselless bloat, touch-id however is not such a thing. It would be an interesting exercise for media organizations to actually see what percentage of the 5s user base use touch id for unlocking the device, purchasing stuff on the app store vs some features on certain other devices often labeled as "gimicky" by commentators. Until we see something like we can only speculate, although i am yet to meet someone with a 5s that does not use touch ID..Despite your perceivable dislike for the iPhone (which you are entitled too) one would have to concede that apple has much more in store with the entire touch-id and payments while Samsung and HTC would have to go through android to actually incorporate anything like that.

 

[C DM]

Check again in November. You don't have to believe it now, but if you're smart enough, you can predict the future.

Is that what various people were saying around this time last year as well?

 

[Vanilla35]

Is that what various people were saying around this time last year as well?

Last year and this year don't compare. Last year, it was already 95% confirmed that there would be another 4.0 inch iPhone coming out (due to model leaks). In addition, there were some very vague and sketchy leaks stating there would be a 4.8 inch iPhone as well. Those leaks only came very late and were so limited that there were even mistranslated parts in the reports. The majority of people still call that rumor the iPhone Math phone. In fact that was mistranslated, and should have been the "iPhone+". Regardless, that was a prototype of what will likely be the iPhone we get this year (iPhone 6). It is easy to justify that the chances of that phone coming to fruition were closer to 20-40% versus the 80-95% that I would assign for the 4.0 inch screen iPhone which became the iPhone 5s.

This year we have already gotten enough sources to confirm (to the same extent that we confirmed the 5s' existence - before launch) that there will be a 4.8 inch screen iPhone, and a 5.x inch screen iPhone.

 

[jeffe]

Yup, something like Touch ID or 64-bit architecture is most certainly Apple slowly chasing some sort of a trend.

Totally - People are just flocking to the IPhone due to it's 64-bit architecture and all the blogs are talking about when Google will finally take Android to 64-bit.

 

[C DM]

Totally - People are just flocking to the IPhone due to it's 64-bit architecture and all the blogs are talking about when Google will finally take Android to 64-bit.

That doesn't mean that Apple isn't setting the trend in relation to mobile architecture or security (and certainly not thst Apple is somehow behind), which is what that particular discussion seemed to be about, not about what the general public thinks or doesn't think they need (given that the vast majority don't even really know any better). Give it time and the othe manufacturers will be catching up and the trend of 64-bit and features like Touch ID will be all over the place, trying to follow Apple.

Of course that's not to say that Apple is setting trends in everything all the time, or that other manufacturers aren't setting some trends. But it is to say that it's not like Apple is somehow outdated and behind trying to play catchup on a ton of things.

 

[Lloydbm41]

If they're just copying, then why bother with the 5s and 5c? Surely they would have rushed out another model that was bigger in the meantime. I won't speak to the iPad Mini because that's not what this thread is about and I don't really know the tablet market.

'S' years are just refreshes, not new phones. So no, I would not have expected Apple to 'rush' out a larger phone for the 5S. Now that the 6 is coming, we hear rumors of a larger screen. Coincidence?

Your second paragraph seems to be agreeing with me, so I'm not sure what you were getting at... Also, what I was trying to get at was that the first touchscreen smartphones that came out after the iPhone were so much like it, most people agreed that blatant copying was going on.

I did agree with you. Companies will copy what is successful. The iPhone was a hit. Companies copy hits. Just like they copied Blackberry before the iPhone. This has been going on long before Apple was even a company.

I guess to me, Apple had their chances to rush to a bigger phone a long time ago. They didn't. That's why I think it has more to do with seeing what people want than anything else. Now if you wanted to talk about things like the control centre, there I would agree that copying was going on.

Apple didn't come out with a larger phone before now because Steve Jobs was in charge. It was his way or the highway. He said no to a smaller iPad and no to a larger iPhone. That is what it boils down to. Now that he is gone, Apple is moving forward.

 

[jeffe]

That doesn't mean that Apple isn't setting the trend in relation to mobile architecture or security (and certainly not thst Apple is somehow behind), which is what that particular discussion seemed to be about, not about what the general public thinks or doesn't think they need (given that the vast majority don't even really know any better). Give it time and the othe manufacturers will be catching up and the trend of 64-bit and features like Touch ID will be all over the place, trying to follow Apple.

Of course that's not to say that Apple is setting trends in everything all the time, or that other manufacturers aren't setting some trends. But it is to say that it's not like Apple is somehow outdated and behind trying to play catchup on a ton of things.

Apple doing 64-bit first isn't setting a trend, it's just doing something first for whatever reason they chose to do so. I don't think Apple going to 64-bit right now has much of an impact on Google's plans with Android.. I'd be surprised if they have changed there existing plans because of Apple going to 64-bit.

Anyways, this discussion has nothing to do with security...It is about Apple potentially releasing a larger screen following it's competitors. Personally, I think they made a pretty big mistake ignoring there customers and waiting this long to do so.

 

[Lloydbm41]

Not really..Touch-ID for apple is not a pile of dog poo, its a well thought out feature involving not only the acquisition of a company whose technology in this domain was widely considered ahead of the competition (for such an application) and whose use apple intends to offer to a much broader feature set within the eco system.. shortened for brevity...

I was not equating Touch ID or any other feature in Apple to a pile of dog poo. What I was referring to is that even if Apple added a pile of dog poo to the iPhone it would be considered successful, simply because the iphone is a successful product. Maps was a miserable failure, but it was still successful simply because it was on every iPhone. Touch ID is not independently successful without the hardware it is attached to.

 

[C DM]

I was not equating Touch ID or any other feature in Apple to a pile of dog poo. What I was referring to is that even if Apple added a pile of dog poo to the iPhone it would be considered successful, simply because the iphone is a successful product. Maps was a miserable failure, but it was still successful simply because it was on every iPhone. Touch ID is not independently successful without the hardware it is attached to.

Maps was still not successful because it was on every iPhone. Not sure who thinks that.

 

[Lloydbm41]

Fall of 2012. When the iPhone 5 was released. A 4.7" model in conjunction to the 4" model would have been perfect.

Never would have happened. Jobs was in charge when all the hardware tooling and production lines were created for the iPhone 5 and the 5 was Jobs baby. No chance in hell for a larger iPhone at that time.

 

[vomhorizon]

Anyways, this discussion has nothing to do with security...It is about Apple potentially releasing a larger screen following it's competitors.

Android phones have had larger screens than the iPhone for years, the T-Mobile G2 had a larger screen than the iphone of its time..Galaxy S had a larger screen than the iPhone competitor.Apple is not really following its competitors in the sense that they are reacting to the market and the trend the competitors are setting, had they done that they would have introduced larger screens years ago. What apple is looking to do is get into making more than one phone (form factor) per year. Apple is not Samsung, or LG or HTC or NOKIA in that they only make ONE phone a year and essentially ONE form FACTOR every two. They've only been in the mobile phone business since 2007..Given the sheer number of phones they sell (50+ million in the last quarter) the next logical step for them would be to grow into other market categories within mobile devices and this would certainly be different screen choices..Apple may make 2 brand new phones in 2014..and may do more then 2 , 5 years from now. Thats how companies grow..The growth path is pretty straight forward for apple...Grow into newer networks (as the massive expansions in 2013 of the carriers around the world that have signed deals with apple) and increse production and introduce newer products..This is what any company would do ! Cook has also said in one of his interviews that apple does not want to deal with the compromises that larger screens have to make in their eyes (others may see differently)..Those compromises come with one handed use, Display technology (something liek 522 PPI would be required off of a LCD (not OLED) if apple were to do a 4x ) among others..He was not adverse to larger phones if those compromises could be mitigated. Lets see how well apple does address those issues and how that compares to how their competitors have done so.

----------

Apple to a pile of dog poo. What I was referring to is that even if Apple added a pile of dog poo to the iPhone it would be considered successful,

As mentioned by the poster above, MAPS was a failure despite of being inside of a phone that sold extremely well and topped its category in sales. Was it a succesfull product? No, it was CRAP..Its getting better but I would still call it second to Google Maps although apple maps is a lot better looking imho. Newstand ..A failure in my opinion as most of the folks i know don't even use it and have it tucked aside, out of view..Despite being on numerous best selling versions of the iPhone, its not succesfull.

Touch ID is not independently successful without the hardware it is attached to.

How does a thing like Touch_iD attain success? I would reckon if a sizable portion of the millions upon millions of folks who bought the 5s use it to not only add a layer of security, but to also have a smoother/quicker and more secure expereince with their app purchases and are fairly satisfied with it then the thing would be succesfull? If its integration with the OS is smooth, seamless and it performs as expected most of the time then it would be succesfull?What else can touch-id do other than what it was designed to do! Initial versions of MAPS was a miserable failure because people outright rejected it..and it forced apple to issue a public apology and fire a very senior executive..No sugarcoating can equate the original MAPS with Success no matter how well the iPhone sold during that period.

'S' years are just refreshes, not new phones. So no, I would not have expected Apple to 'rush' out a larger phone for the 5S. Now that the 6 is coming, we hear rumors of a larger screen. Coincidence?

Depends upon which rumours you subscribe too..One that came out just recently, suggests that the 5+ inch version might not even be called an iPhone and would be released next to the iPhone which would be under 5 inches..Why then do they wait till 2014 to release this "Non-iPhone" device..

I think it would be foolish to say apple could have sold more iPhone had the 5 and 5s been 4.5 or even 5inches (as some have suggested elsewhere)...No one has access to the extremely expensive market research to actually see what the difference in sales would have been given the constraints on the supply side. How many customers will apple loose with a larger phone and how can it keep them on board? Apple has managed to sell an enormous amount of 4 inch iphone 5/5s'/c's over the last year and a half or so..A rediculous ammount given just one form factor. Despite replacing the 4S with a phone that was still smaller then its competitor (GSIII).

 

[Bobby Corwen]

Android phones have had larger screens than the iPhone for years, the T-Mobile G2 had a larger screen than the iphone of its time..Galaxy S had a larger screen than the iPhone competitor.Apple is not really following its competitors in the sense that they are reacting to the market and the trend the competitors are setting, had they done that they would have introduced larger screens years ago. What apple is looking to do is get into making more than one phone (form factor) per year. Apple is not Samsung, or LG or HTC or NOKIA in that they only make ONE phone a year and essentially ONE form FACTOR every two. They've only been in the mobile phone business since 2007..Given the sheer number of phones they sell (50+ million in the last quarter) the next logical step for them would be to grow into other market categories within mobile devices and this would certainly be different screen choices..Apple may make 2 brand new phones in 2014..and may do more then 2 , 5 years from now. Thats how companies grow..The growth path is pretty straight forward for apple...Grow into newer networks (as the massive expansions in 2013 of the carriers around the world that have signed deals with apple) and increse production and introduce newer products..This is what any company would do ! Cook has also said in one of his interviews that apple does not want to deal with the compromises that larger screens have to make in their eyes (others may see differently)..Those compromises come with one handed use, Display technology (something liek 522 PPI would be required off of a LCD (not OLED) if apple were to do a 4x ) among others..He was not adverse to larger phones if those compromises could be mitigated. Lets see how well apple does address those issues and how that compares to how their competitors have done so.

----------



As mentioned by the poster above, MAPS was a failure despite of being inside of a phone that sold extremely well and topped its category in sales. Was it a succesfull product? No, it was CRAP..Its getting better but I would still call it second to Google Maps although apple maps is a lot better looking imho. Newstand ..A failure in my opinion as most of the folks i know don't even use it and have it tucked aside, out of view..Despite being on numerous best selling versions of the iPhone, its not succesfull.



How does a thing like Touch_iD attain success? I would reckon if a sizable portion of the millions upon millions of folks who bought the 5s use it to not only add a layer of security, but to also have a smoother/quicker and more secure expereince with their app purchases and are fairly satisfied with it then the thing would be succesfull? If its integration with the OS is smooth, seamless and it performs as expected most of the time then it would be succesfull?What else can touch-id do other than what it was designed to do! Initial versions of MAPS was a miserable failure because people outright rejected it..and it forced apple to issue a public apology and fire a very senior executive..No sugarcoating can equate the original MAPS with Success no matter how well the iPhone sold during that period.



Depends upon which rumours you subscribe too..One that came out just recently, suggests that the 5+ inch version might not even be called an iPhone and would be released next to the iPhone which would be under 5 inches..Why then do they wait till 2014 to release this "Non-iPhone" device..

I think it would be foolish to say apple could have sold more iPhone had the 5 and 5s been 4.5 or even 5inches (as some have suggested elsewhere)...No one has access to the extremely expensive market research to actually see what the difference in sales would have been given the constraints on the supply side. How many customers will apple loose with a larger phone and how can it keep them on board? Apple has managed to sell an enormous amount of 4 inch iphone 5/5s'/c's over the last year and a half or so..A rediculous ammount given just one form factor. Despite replacing the 4S with a phone that was still smaller then its competitor (GSIII).

I bet a massive amount of people will switch from Samsung to Apple when this happens.

I think it will be obvious how big of a deal the screen was.

 

[vomhorizon]

I bet a massive amount of people will switch from Samsung to Apple when this happens.

I think it will be obvious how big of a deal the screen was.

You mean even more than that are currently switching from Sam to APPL?

Apple draws three times more customers from Samsung, than they from Apple

http://www.neowin.net/news/apple-draws-three-times-more-customers-from-samsung-than-they-from-apple

 

[Bobby Corwen]

You mean even more than that are currently switching from Sam to APPL?

Apple draws three times more customers from Samsung, than they from Apple

http://www.neowin.net/news/apple-draws-three-times-more-customers-from-samsung-than-they-from-apple

Yeah, it will be palpable in the streets. IRL.

 

[vomhorizon]

Yeah, it will be palpable in the streets. IRL.

We'll their is only so much capacity at the suppliers for apple to boost its sales in 2014 compared to 2013 unless has been quitely asking its partners to boost productions..The no. of iPhones available for "prime-time" is limted and dependent on supply constraints with the suppliers..Saphire for touch-ID was said to be the limiting factor for the 5s..Most OEM's are warning of a cooling smartphone market..lets see if apple is immune to it or will suffer just like the rest..

 

[Bobby Corwen]

We'll their is only so much capacity at the suppliers for apple to boost its sales in 2014 compared to 2013 unless has been quitely asking its partners to boost productions..The no. of iPhones available for "prime-time" is limted and dependent on supply constraints with the suppliers..Saphire for touch-ID was said to be the limiting factor for the 5s..Most OEM's are warning of a cooling smartphone market..lets see if apple is immune to it or will suffer just like the rest..

When you say cooling smartphone market, you mean like saturation is almost complete?

Meaning everyone that would have a smartphone finally got one? And from now its just re-upping every two years? Maybe in the future every year?

I think the lifecycles should be reimbursed once a year. T-Mobile is headed there I think.

These phones don't really last two whole years do they? Battery especially gets really bad the second year.

 

[vomhorizon]

When you say cooling smartphone market, you mean like saturation is almost complete?

Not an analyst of the market, but from what I hear growth is going to slow down. Apple is a little more immune as it has a OS monopoly and its place in the market (right at the top/highest segement). There is tough competition in the android dommain, and apple's supply side is critical if it wants to keep on growing in this segement.