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lepidotós

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2021
677
748
Marinette, Arizona
You make a solid argument, much of which i agree with. Kernel versions and code changes make a difference though to be fair and I disagree with your point regarding a move to a 10.6 naming scheme had SL never been released - traditionally a major version number change requires significant under the hood changes that breaks compatibility and requires new APIs and so on. My point wasn’t against the use of the 10.5.9 moniker regardless, nor was I suggesting the project needs to be renamed, in fact if you actually read my responses you’ll see that the name only came into discussion because another user projected an argument onto me that wasn’t mine to begin with. I’m unsure as to why i’m having to clarify that again.

In my original response i only stated that i agreed with @Dronecatcher regarding the exaggerated claims as it is a disservice to the project, its creator and the community, and then went on to say that the project doesn’t need such exaggeration as it stands on its own merit for what it is.

I respect and appreciate the people coming forth to defend the project and its creator, but maybe save that for someone actually attacking them? @z970 has understood my points and responded to them. I also value his contributions to the community and have expressed interest in this project. I stand by the actual opinions i have expressed and i am free, just as you are, to express them.
Fair enough, I should have reread the thread before posting, my bad. Though none of that was me trying to pick a fight. I do come across as combatative sometimes, I'm not specifically trying to be though, I just like making thorough points.
As for major version, I usually interpret 10 as the major version and 5 as the minor, so 10.6 is a minor version update even if it's in reality a large update, just like 10.3 to 10.4, but now that you've brought it up I can see the point. Especially now that I'm remembering that new 10.x.0 releases generally came with new versions of Darwin.
 

ChrisCharman

macrumors 6502
May 10, 2020
464
626
Bournemouth, UK
Fair enough, I should have reread the thread before posting, my bad. Though none of that was me trying to pick a fight. I do come across as combatative sometimes, I'm not specifically trying to be though, I just like making thorough points.
As for major version, I usually interpret 10 as the major version and 5 as the minor, so 10.6 is a minor version update even if it's in reality a large update, just like 10.3 to 10.4, but now that you've brought it up I can see the point. Especially now that I'm remembering that new 10.x.0 releases generally came with new versions of Darwin.
Don’t worry, I clearly come across to some as combative also while meaning to be very specific and thorough with my points. A great deal of communication relies on body language, so it’s unsurprising when misunderstandings occur online.

Yeah Apple’s versioning system is very Apple. There’s obviously debate regarding the appropriateness of the switch from Mac OS X to Mac OS 11 for example, or in particular at what point it should have occurred given the large scale of changes that have occurred from the original 10.0 and current MacOS. It’s pretty evident that they don’t follow a concrete definition and marketing does play a role as well.
 
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Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Oct 28, 2015
9,585
11,847
Yeah Apple’s versioning system is very Apple.
Yeah, but in the past it has at least been somewhat "obvious" for OS X/macOS. While 10 was the major version, it could basically be ignored because it didn't change. The minor version signified a new release, whereas the minor-minor version signified a delta update to a release. With the switch to a new major version with Big Sur and the beginning of the ARM transition (which was probably the driving force behind going to 11 - to indicate "a new era"), the major version finally corresponds to the release (and will presumably be incremented by one every year now, so we might be at macOS 20 before long...), with the minor version signifying a delta update, and the minor-minor version signifying smaller changes.

Does that paragraph even make sense LOL?
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 2, 2017
3,583
4,525
@Dronecatcher My apologies for the misunderstanding and perhaps for my usage of an inappropriate tone; I was in no way criticizing you for what you called Sorbet, I was just making a small correction.

I think my first reaction was that while labeling it as just a tweaked install is technically correct, I saw that as a very literal interpretation of how everything is put together, which felt akin to a minimization of sorts in regards to the other 2/3 of the system that wasn't just tweaked for performance, but methodically added to for features and accessibility. Although I chose to only address the performance topic in my response to your post.

Admittedly, I probably think of the project in a larger way than it deserves, and that likely unconsciously carries some effect on how I refer to it here ... although I've consistently been trying to be as accurate as possible as to what it actually does (sans the recent oversimplifications - I often look at things from multiple different angles and interpretations, and sometimes that becomes public).

To be fair, I did say earlier that I wanted to feel more excited about computing in general (which until recently, not much available was fulfilling); accordingly, at least a little bit of my investment in Sorbet is probably self-manufactured.

@MoerBoer The current image is fully USB-bootable. Because I have been unable to get the image size down to 7.3 GB without potentially breaking things though, the USB booting guide is currently undergoing a period of retooling to accommodate this obstacle. Otherwise, it will be published eventually.

In the meantime, my recommendation for now is to just try restoring the image to a 16 GB USB drive on hand, and then boot from that using the instructions found in The Open Firmware Wiki. Because this method is as of now untested however, success is not necessarily assured.
 
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MacFoxG4

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2019
446
616
Just installed Sorbet 1.4 on the 1.5ghz Sawtooth and it is running very well. As @Doq mentioned in their review, I too feel like Sorbet is snappier than vanilla 10.5.8. Mouse movement and even finder would feel a bit sluggish for me on vanilla Leopard even with a CI-capable GPU and AuroraTrimCelerator installed. The maintenance script completed faster on this new release of Sorbet than on previous releases. I downloaded Sorbet using my 2006 C2D MBP, copied the zip file to an external USB drive, then booted into Tiger on my Sawtooth and copied the zip file to the Tiger partition on my Sawtooth's SSD. I unzipped the file in Tiger, mounted the DMG and then unmounted it, and used Tiger's Disk Utility to restore the DMG to the partition I created for Leopard (Note: I erased the Leo partition, which contained the previous release of Sorbet, first before doing the restore). I find Tiger's Disk Utility to be the best on PPC Macs when it comes to restoring DMGs. Leopard's Disk utility always gives me errors, even with my own DMGs.

@z970 I find your "right-brained" viewpoint refreshing. I like the way you have presented the project, I enjoy the "marketing" talk.
 

ChrisCharman

macrumors 6502
May 10, 2020
464
626
Bournemouth, UK
Yeah, but in the past it has at least been somewhat "obvious" for OS X/macOS. While 10 was the major version, it could basically be ignored because it didn't change. The minor version signified a new release, whereas the minor-minor version signified a delta update to a release. With the switch to a new major version with Big Sur and the beginning of the ARM transition (which was probably the driving force behind going to 11 - to indicate "a new era"), the major version finally corresponds to the release (and will presumably be incremented by one every year now, so we might be at macOS 20 before long...), with the minor version signifying a delta update, and the minor-minor version signifying smaller changes.

Does that paragraph even make sense LOL?
Yeah makes perfect sense. I think Steve Jobs stating how long OS X would ‘set Apple up for’ played a role as well to be fair, although that could just be coincidental.
 

lepidotós

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2021
677
748
Marinette, Arizona
People can call their OS whatever they want - my Snow Leopard is running a ton of hacks so therefore it is now....

View attachment 1910938
OS Sausage 10.6 Viennese, 10.7 Kielbasa, 10.8 Peppa...
Just installed Sorbet 1.4 on the 1.5ghz Sawtooth and it is running very well. As @Doq mentioned in their review, I too feel like Sorbet is snappier than vanilla 10.5.8. Mouse movement and even finder would feel a bit sluggish for me on vanilla Leopard even with a CI-capable GPU and AuroraTrimCelerator installed. The maintenance script completed faster on this new release of Sorbet than on previous releases. I downloaded Sorbet using my 2006 C2D MBP, copied the zip file to an external USB drive, then booted into Tiger on my Sawtooth and copied the zip file to the Tiger partition on my Sawtooth's SSD. I unzipped the file in Tiger, mounted the DMG and then unmounted it, and used Tiger's Disk Utility to restore the DMG to the partition I created for Leopard (Note: I erased the Leo partition, which contained the previous release of Sorbet, first before doing the restore). I find Tiger's Disk Utility to be the best on PPC Macs when it comes to restoring DMGs. Leopard's Disk utility always gives me errors, even with my own DMGs.

@z970 I find your "right-brained" viewpoint refreshing. I like the way you have presented the project, I enjoy the "marketing" talk.
Probably the best way to measure snappiness with any measure of objectivity is something like what the 8-Bit Guy did with the C64 Mini, filming yourself at 60fps doing things and timing the delay in a video editor.
 

MoerBoer

macrumors regular
Jan 27, 2018
216
150
@Dronecatcher My apologies for the misunderstanding and perhaps for my usage of an inappropriate tone; I was in no way criticizing you for what you called Sorbet, I was just making a small correction.

I think my first reaction was that while labeling it as just a tweaked install is technically correct, I saw that as a very literal interpretation of how everything is put together, which felt akin to a minimization of sorts in regards to the other 2/3 of the system that wasn't just tweaked for performance, but added to for features and accessibility. Although I chose to only address the performance topic in my response to your post.

Admittedly, I probably think of the project in a larger way than it deserves, and that likely unconsciously carries some effect on how I refer to it here ... although I've consistently been trying to be as accurate as possible as to what it actually does (sans the recent oversimplifications - I often look at things from multiple different angles and interpretations, and sometimes that becomes public).

To be fair, I did say earlier that I wanted to feel more excited about computing in general (which until recently, not much available was fulfilling); accordingly, at least a little bit of my investment in Sorbet is probably self-manufactured.

@MoerBoer The current image is fully USB-bootable. Because I have been unable to get the image size down to 7.3 GB without potentially breaking things though, the USB booting guide is currently undergoing a period of retooling to accommodate this obstacle. Otherwise, it will be published eventually.

In the meantime, my recommendation for now is to just try restoring the image to a 16 GB USB drive on hand, and then boot from that using the instructions found in The Open Firmware Wiki. Because this method is as of now untested however, success is not necessarily assured.

Thanks @z970 ! I'll give a spin and see if I have success.
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Jun 17, 2014
5,226
7,837
Lincolnshire, UK
Probably the best way to measure snappiness with any measure of objectivity is something like what the 8-Bit Guy did with the C64 Mini, filming yourself at 60fps doing things and timing the delay in a video editor.
There's also a utility in Xcode to measure GUI performance as detailed here by @AphoticD :


As this experiment showed, the beamsync toggle gives a few extra FPS but introduces screen tearing on the machine used.
My own findings with beamsync were negative - which @z970 found himself four years ago and like most PPC tweaks, they only benefit certain configurations - for example, turning off beamsync on an eMac or CRT equipped system is a definite no-no.
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Jun 17, 2014
5,226
7,837
Lincolnshire, UK
LOL.. Dronecatcher.. made my day - you crazy guy!!
iSausage.png
 

Hellfirechrome

macrumors newbie
Aug 23, 2021
11
20
Twin Peaks
Why bicker? The dude giving us all free, useful software can call it whatever he wants. Seeing as Apple's OS naming/numbering system was slapdash x.x.x(+1) after every (sometimes VERY) minor update, there's nothing wrong with following suit. The work done here is more significant than the changes Apple would make between x.x revisions in most cases.

Who cares what 'version number' of abacus they label it when adding a few beads? It's an abacus, and Big Abacus isn't going to come after the guy for infringing on their bead count patents. It feels like you're just looking for something to gripe about LOL

FWIW, Installed it on my minty 867mhz TiBook and it's not only fast, clean, and stable so far... but it's pretty and it's useful, giving some new life to otherwise laughably obsolete hardware.
 

Hellfirechrome

macrumors newbie
Aug 23, 2021
11
20
Twin Peaks
Can you tell me what you can do now that you couldn't do before?
I can, but I won't. That has been covered by the release statement and previous commentators, and as you seem to want to be the squeakiest wheel you can go somewhere else for your grease. I'm the sort that will simply replace the wheel.
 
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Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Jun 17, 2014
5,226
7,837
Lincolnshire, UK
I can, but I won't. That has been covered by the release statement and previous commentators, and as you seem to want to be the squeakiest wheel you can go somewhere else for your grease. I'm the sort that will simply replace the wheel.
Actually it hasn't. A straightforward testimony from one of Sorbet's target audience would've been handy but never mind.
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 2, 2017
3,583
4,525
@Dronecatcher I've actually never had any problems from disabling BeamSync on an eMac 1.42 (which presumably uses the same CRTs as its predecessors), which is why it was made the default in the end. It seems to me that the guy in the thread you linked killed his install by disabling CoreUI - which is absolutely a no-no, and not in disabling BeamSync in that case. As far as I know.

Still, it remains a mostly situational advantage, and you are correct may not necessarily behave correctly on all configurations, which is why the change can be instantly reverted at Applications > Utility Scripts > System > BeamSync > Enable BeamSync.

As to straightforward testimonies from Sorbet's target audience, aside from @Doq's review that was published here earlier (in addition to the flood of other people here that pelted it with praise several pages back), here are a couple screenshots of what those in the Low End Mac group that @fra9000 linked to earlier have said so far ...

Screenshot from 2021-11-16 11-39-50.png

Screenshot from 2021-11-16 11-40-28.png

Screenshot from 2021-11-16 11-42-58.png

Screenshot from 2021-11-16 11-43-58.png

Screenshot from 2021-11-16 11-45-27.png


(The Finder search function doesn't work because Spotlight is disabled; re-enable Spotlight and it returns.)

In addition to another couple posts from the OS' page on Macintosh Garden ...

Screenshot_2021-11-16 Sorbet Leopard - Macintosh Garden.png


(The Wi-Fi issue was resolved in Revision 1.4, released last Friday.)

Outside of the new features detailed in the changelog, there is nothing in particular here that was impossible to accomplish before. With that being said however, it's faster than what most people are used to, it's unexpectedly capable, and it's just a great deal more pleasant to use (which was the whole point from the beginning; to simply build a better Leopard, not reinvent the wheel). For folks who are not of the tinkering persuasion, those are attractive prospects all by themselves (and for one guy on reddit, that was even enough to up and purchase a new machine outright!).

Therefore, I maintain my hope that this will help to cut down on e-waste as a result (and in that regard, I regret not doing this earlier). Unfortunately though, in order to properly inform Mr. Joe G. Average III of all this (who unlike us, does not frequent some random subforum on MacRumors.com), some form of product branding and marketing is required because that's the way the world works. Which justifies my public-facing decisions up until now.
 
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Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Jun 17, 2014
5,226
7,837
Lincolnshire, UK
As to straightforward testimonies from Sorbet's target audience, aside from @Doq's review that was published here earlier (in addition to the flood of other people here that pelted it with praise several pages back), here are a couple screenshots of what those in the Low End Mac group that @fra9000 linked to earlier have said so far ...

Yes, I know what it's supposed to do as I have the same hacks (that work) running on every install of Leopard for the past decade - it's telling that the feedback on the groups appears to be from users who don't know the hacks or Onyx/Secrets (to be expected) nor have they heard of Webkit (which I find strange.)

We both know this hasn't been designed for me and for the users it is aimed at it's of great benefit...so I'll try to pipe down now as I hate being called a squeaky wheel ?
 

Hellfirechrome

macrumors newbie
Aug 23, 2021
11
20
Twin Peaks
@Dronecatcher

Therefore, I maintain my hope that this will help to cut down on e-waste as a result. And unfortunately, in order to get the word out to Mr. Joe G. Average III (who unlike us, does not frequent some random subforum on MacRumors.com), some form of product branding and marketing is required because that's the way the world works. Which justifies my public-facing decisions up until now.

Considering that there are nearly a dozen popular (and many more blooming) vintage Mac/Apple enthusiasts on YouTube who have been steadily gaining steam over the last couple years, and the idea that retro tech is a valid hobby, this will only grow in popularity as we move forward and likely more than one would expect. More specifically, this operating system refresh gives immediate and tangible benefits to playing with some of the systems that have been a bit floundering in popularity, such as later G4/G5 desktops and aluminum G4 PowerBooks. The G3's will always be the king of retro because of Classic and expandability (powerbooks especially), but the late G4's were powerhouses and deserve this love.

Your efforts have only begun to be noticed and no matter who tries to take you down a peg for their own edification, those of us who understand the labor of love you have shared with sorbet leopard stand behind you and look forward to future upgrades updates and revisions, as your time allows.

Thank you.
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 2, 2017
3,583
4,525
@Hellfirechrome Thanks for the input.

My only concern now is if Sorbet might actually end up raising hardware prices if its popularity gets too high ... in which case, its exclusivity to PowerPC may have been a double-edged sword. :oops:
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Oct 28, 2015
9,585
11,847
it's telling that the feedback on the groups appears to be from users who don't know the hacks or Onyx/Secrets (to be expected) nor have they heard of Webkit (which I find strange.)
It’s LEM — so what do you expect? :) Seriously, some members probably (and not mistakenly) think “Linux” is a kind of washing powder.

LinuxVollwaschmittelPackung.jpg
 
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ChrisCharman

macrumors 6502
May 10, 2020
464
626
Bournemouth, UK
@Hellfirechrome Thanks for the input.

My only concern now is if Sorbet might actually end up raising hardware prices if its popularity gets too high ... in which case, its exclusivity to PowerPC may have been a double-edged sword. :oops:
I was literally about to suggest the same thing but although some people may wish to take advantage, if there is a spike, it would only be temporary. The free market dictates prices. I've seen iBook G3s on eBay for hundreds and others for under £50 - you can probably guess which ones get re-listed time and time again. Regardless anything that generates interest in using these machines as intended and not destroying to use for PC case mods can only be positive.
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Oct 28, 2015
9,585
11,847
My only concern now is if Sorbet might actually end up raising hardware prices if its popularity gets too high ... in which case, its exclusivity to PowerPC may have been a double-edged sword. :oops:
I think prices have already been going up over the years — if they end up going even higher that’s not your fault, nor is it that of e.g. the MorphOS devs or @wicknix' for his Lubuntu remixes etc. "At least" Sorbet doesn’t run on G3s — so a certain individual can’t slap it on "beautified" clamshells and jack up their price even higher... :D
 
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