that fx5200 may not do so well. it's only PARTIALLY supported by core image (as was DX9 with windows). it may work but i'm not going to be so keen on the GPU performance. best of luck though
p.s. that laptop deserved a 9600.
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Sorbet Leopard - Your Power Mac Unleashed
- Thread starter z970
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p.s. that laptop deserved a 9600.
now that i think of it, when i put a 9600XT into my 1.8SP PCI-X G5 when i still had it, the whole system just felt faster. fx5200 is something that should go into an incinerator, not a pro machine from 2005.
Actually on Clouded Leopard, graphics acceleration is possible with a PCI FX5200. However it’s impossible with the AGP FX5200 Ultra.
I’m pretty confident the FX5200 in the 12” PowerBook is an AGP variant.
Hi @z970mp
I’ve had a quick read through this thread and I’m interested to see the final results from this endeavour.
Regarding the transplanting of wallpapers and user images et al i have done this also, early last year along with a few SL apps when initially beginning work on SLPPC back when i was tinkering with the idea of a ‘10.5.9’ project outcome.
I also mirror @Dronecatcher with regard to using scripts and terminal tweaks, as i’m sure many of us have done for years to optimise vanilla Leopard. I understand one of the motivations for this project being to create an installation with many of these tweaks and presumably further tweaks being ready to go and thus easier for the novice user, is this correct?
One thing that has caught my eye is your mention of using Snow Leopard fonts from 10.6.8 - have you seen a tangible benefit and do the fonts cause any issues under 10.5? Much of the font rendering system is different in SL when compared to Leopard, which is why i ask the question.
Further, aside from editing config files and running scripts have you updated any of the libraries or frameworks under the hood? The reason for this question is with regard to the 8GB download requirement you stated in one of your posts - if the underlying system is still Leopard would this project not be better delivered as a separate installer that can be used on top of the users Leopard installation? I suppose i’m not understanding the logic behind delivering an entire copy of Leopard along with the tweaks.
I’ve had a quick read through this thread and I’m interested to see the final results from this endeavour.
Regarding the transplanting of wallpapers and user images et al i have done this also, early last year along with a few SL apps when initially beginning work on SLPPC back when i was tinkering with the idea of a ‘10.5.9’ project outcome.
I also mirror @Dronecatcher with regard to using scripts and terminal tweaks, as i’m sure many of us have done for years to optimise vanilla Leopard. I understand one of the motivations for this project being to create an installation with many of these tweaks and presumably further tweaks being ready to go and thus easier for the novice user, is this correct?
One thing that has caught my eye is your mention of using Snow Leopard fonts from 10.6.8 - have you seen a tangible benefit and do the fonts cause any issues under 10.5? Much of the font rendering system is different in SL when compared to Leopard, which is why i ask the question.
Further, aside from editing config files and running scripts have you updated any of the libraries or frameworks under the hood? The reason for this question is with regard to the 8GB download requirement you stated in one of your posts - if the underlying system is still Leopard would this project not be better delivered as a separate installer that can be used on top of the users Leopard installation? I suppose i’m not understanding the logic behind delivering an entire copy of Leopard along with the tweaks.
I think that’s a bit disingenuous. I’m not aware of a single person that has ever promoted or advocated Snow Leopard on PowerPC in any of its current or previous incarnations as complete, comparable to a retail release with regard to ease of installation nor free of bugs.
Indeed it is a tinkerers project. Everything on obsolete and vintage hardware falls under this category - all of your own projects included.
I understand you and others have disagreements often on this forum but please don’t misrepresent others work. You started with a well-meaning and complementary appraisal but ended on a different tone. We’re all enthusiasts here so let’s behave like a community, not like warring tribes.
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For what it's worth, I believe the FX5200 chipset itself is just short of several crucial instructions for full OpenGL 2.0 / Core Image compatibility. So neither the PCI nor AGP version will fit the system requirements, hence 'GeForce 6200 and up'.
@ChrisCharman That is correct, yes. As mentioned in the first post, a notable point in favor of Sorbet Leopard is the convenience alone that it affords to any user. Personally, I was dissatisfied with the time-consuming Leopard install and post-install process, so this is one of the things Sorbet Leopard sets out to do out-of-the-box so that the user doesn't have to. Scripts included.
In practical use, all fonts seem to have worked fine up to now (save for a scant incompatible few that were removed from inclusion). The only issue I've noticed is that Font Book will throw "System Validation" errors for a varying number of fonts every time a validation is ran, but I'm 95% certain this is merely a cryptic permissions issue and can be fully resolved at a later date. And the end benefit is that since Snow Leopard came with a broader font selection than Leopard did, the creatively-inclined will be able to make use of its larger library if they so choose (without needing an Intel machine / downloading and installing the additional fonts manually).
No, the libraries and frameworks have not been updated, as that would begin to break the reliable software compatibility that vanilla Leopard enjoys. Currently, there is no need.
As to your question of delivering a whole Leopard system instead of a custom installer of some sort, I will simply post my answer below to a similar inquiry one of my beta testers had in regards to the same topic:
And that aside, there is still the convenience aspect (as previously mentioned). In my opinion, installing Leopard takes too long as-is. So if on top of that, there were a separate installer that would comprise of modified files to replace preexisting system files, you would not only need to run the installer, but other installers, like the QuickTime 7.7 update, the Aluminum Keyboard compatibility update, the Magic Mouse compatibility update, etc.
In the past, I tried essentially this with the release of AuroraSuite two years ago, but it fell by the wayside because there was just too much to do post-install, reinforcing my above argument that if an ideal result is deemed unworthy of pursuit (even if on an unconscious basis) due to the time / effort required to achieve it, it won't be acquired. And with the recent availability of other fully updated retro OSes on the Internet Archive, alongside the relatively novel single board computer example of providing a complete OS image to restore onto a medium instead of installing from scratch via disc, I figured it would be an interesting experiment to give PPC OS X the same treatment.
No, the SL-PPC project was never exactly raised to the level of the retail releases by anyone, that is correct.
But in my view, when you have one of the only members of the project's development team constantly promoting heavily unfinished software (that currently requires advanced knowledge and effort just to launch a great number of applications properly) to the broader populace left, right, and center - in usually off-topic threads no less - passerby may very well begin to think that the project's "product" (for lack of a better term) is in a better state of functionality than it actually is, which can be deceptive, even if unintentionally so. - Even I was beginning to think that it was all starting to come together, until I re-checked the Wiki.
Still, I reserve the right to an opinion, and to express said opinion within a relevant place of discussion (as do you). And as I see it, I most especially reserve the right to frustratingly express said opinion when the same topic keeps popping up while in a place of discussion of a completely different subject matter. Hence, my aforementioned commentary on the current state of the SL-PPC project.
Now with that being said, I ultimately agree with you. There are more important things to worry about than what goes on within some Internet forum, especially when in regards to everlasting disagreements originating out of heavily differing sociopolitical ideals.
In the end, I still find all of it to be quite a humorous matter in one fashion or another, regardless of the circumstances. So on that note, I wish you and everyone else great health, wealth, and liberty, and good night.
@ChrisCharman That is correct, yes. As mentioned in the first post, a notable point in favor of Sorbet Leopard is the convenience alone that it affords to any user. Personally, I was dissatisfied with the time-consuming Leopard install and post-install process, so this is one of the things Sorbet Leopard sets out to do out-of-the-box so that the user doesn't have to. Scripts included.
In practical use, all fonts seem to have worked fine up to now (save for a scant incompatible few that were removed from inclusion). The only issue I've noticed is that Font Book will throw "System Validation" errors for a varying number of fonts every time a validation is ran, but I'm 95% certain this is merely a cryptic permissions issue and can be fully resolved at a later date. And the end benefit is that since Snow Leopard came with a broader font selection than Leopard did, the creatively-inclined will be able to make use of its larger library if they so choose (without needing an Intel machine / downloading and installing the additional fonts manually).
No, the libraries and frameworks have not been updated, as that would begin to break the reliable software compatibility that vanilla Leopard enjoys. Currently, there is no need.
As to your question of delivering a whole Leopard system instead of a custom installer of some sort, I will simply post my answer below to a similar inquiry one of my beta testers had in regards to the same topic:
z970mp said:
And that aside, there is still the convenience aspect (as previously mentioned). In my opinion, installing Leopard takes too long as-is. So if on top of that, there were a separate installer that would comprise of modified files to replace preexisting system files, you would not only need to run the installer, but other installers, like the QuickTime 7.7 update, the Aluminum Keyboard compatibility update, the Magic Mouse compatibility update, etc.
In the past, I tried essentially this with the release of AuroraSuite two years ago, but it fell by the wayside because there was just too much to do post-install, reinforcing my above argument that if an ideal result is deemed unworthy of pursuit (even if on an unconscious basis) due to the time / effort required to achieve it, it won't be acquired. And with the recent availability of other fully updated retro OSes on the Internet Archive, alongside the relatively novel single board computer example of providing a complete OS image to restore onto a medium instead of installing from scratch via disc, I figured it would be an interesting experiment to give PPC OS X the same treatment.
No, the SL-PPC project was never exactly raised to the level of the retail releases by anyone, that is correct.
But in my view, when you have one of the only members of the project's development team constantly promoting heavily unfinished software (that currently requires advanced knowledge and effort just to launch a great number of applications properly) to the broader populace left, right, and center - in usually off-topic threads no less - passerby may very well begin to think that the project's "product" (for lack of a better term) is in a better state of functionality than it actually is, which can be deceptive, even if unintentionally so. - Even I was beginning to think that it was all starting to come together, until I re-checked the Wiki.
Still, I reserve the right to an opinion, and to express said opinion within a relevant place of discussion (as do you). And as I see it, I most especially reserve the right to frustratingly express said opinion when the same topic keeps popping up while in a place of discussion of a completely different subject matter. Hence, my aforementioned commentary on the current state of the SL-PPC project.
Now with that being said, I ultimately agree with you. There are more important things to worry about than what goes on within some Internet forum, especially when in regards to everlasting disagreements originating out of heavily differing sociopolitical ideals.
In the end, I still find all of it to be quite a humorous matter in one fashion or another, regardless of the circumstances. So on that note, I wish you and everyone else great health, wealth, and liberty, and good night.
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@z970mp thank you for sharing your thinking here.
Then I start to be a little bit confused on that matter.
I have seen mid-specs iMac G4 with the FX5200 running leopard fluidly. I have a 17" 1.25 GHz iMac with 2GB Ram, SSD and the 64MB FX5200. Why the Sorbet Leopard which you have probably optimized further compared to Vanilla Leopard would not support/run fluidly on FX5200?
Just curious on that topic, your great effort here is of course highly appreciated
.
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Hi again @z970mp
Thanks for taking the time to respond to all of my points and questions.
I am familiar with your other work, and have used AuroraTrimcelerator, FoxPEP etc which is why i asked for the clarification, as i was expecting a spiritual successor if you will in this project and was curious if you view it that way also? Though i had already manually applied many of those tweaks previously, i appreciate the time and effort spent putting those projects together and the rationale behind them - not everybody shares a love for tinkering nor the time, inclination or technical knowledge. Offering a simple and convenient way for users to apply a set of carefully tested and curated tweaks is admirable and offering greater choice for the PowerPC mac user is something i will always support and encourage.
The enquiry regarding the 8GB download was partly the above but also a concern for those users that aren't fortunate enough to have high speed internet. This isn't an issue for me personally as i enjoy Fibre and will gratefully and happily download 'Sorbet' once you make it available. I will probably just install to another partition, alongside other curosities, as opposed to playing with the 'Live' functionality. It seems like a fascinating concept but not something i think i would want to endure over USB 2 connection speeds. Have you or any of the beta testers found the system laggy or experienced any other issues with this functionality?
It's very interesting to hear that you've found mostly positive results moving the fonts over to 10.5, i am one of the users that would be interested in doing this and may well do so. Have you found that any of the additional fonts have impacted system performance at all? If i'm not mistaken, in your other optimisation projects you investigated and identified a number of fonts that once disabled improved system performance - i'm sure you were cognisant of this when choosing to add fonts this time around so would be very curious to learn your findings in more detail when you have the chance.
Yes, i've spent many hours playing with library and framework replacements over the last year and, for this project, i think you've made a wise decision leaving them alone. Retail Leopard is rock solid and it would be a shame to add instability unnecessarily.
I think you err in regarding explorations into running SL on PPC as a single project. I see the thread as a resource for shared findings and a launchpad for those interested to experiment and tinker. I'm also 'guilty' of not sharing progress i've made as frequently or publicly as i would if it were a single project with a schedule and deadline - it's something i do for fun in my spare time and i don't get a great deal of that unfortunately. I would encourage you to continue to stop by now and then to check-in as, though non-scheduled, there will be interesting findings and updates continually for the foreseeable future as far as i'm concerned.
With regard to your frustrations, i make it a point to never intentionally involve myself in other peoples personal or sociopolitical disputes nor do i visit a computing forum to discuss politics at all. The one remotely political ideology, that i consider essential, that i will declare publicly is the right to free speech. In that respect i would never presume to claim the right to affirm or disavow the inalienable rights of others to express themselves freely. I might question, agree or disagree but it is only ever in the interest of civil discourse and discussion.
Lastly i've just seen your 'musings' at the bottom of the post (almost missed it). As you have no doubt noticed my replies are sometimes verbose, so i do choose to quote in most cases. That being said i respect your view and should you ever feel the need to request that i remove a quote attributed to you by all means drop me a message.
@fra9000 The short version is as follows; since my understanding is that the FX5200 / NV34 chipset lacks the aforementioned instructions for full compliance with the OpenGL 2.0 specification, certain technologies in OS X that make use of it (such as QuartzGL), can end up hindering performance when their use is enforced on hardware that cannot fully pull the weight, which would apply to NV34.
So, being that vanilla Leopard does not make as much use of QuartzGL out-of-the-box (and therefore the GPU assuming it is fully OGL 2.0-compliant) as Sorbet Leopard does, the rationale is that where its use would accelerate certain applications on more powerful hardware equipped with GF6200s / R9550s and up, it can just as well slow down the system when the graphics hardware is insufficient to carry the specified load, like on FX5200s / R9200s and below.
Now with that said, you've given me an idea. I might in the future explore adding the ability to optionally disable QuartzGL acceleration altogether so that the system will also be fully compatible with FX5200 / R9200 cards, and with a reduced load on the GPU, still be faster on older machines than vanilla Leopard. However, as there is just roughly a week remaining, keep in mind the fruits of this exploration may or may not be included with the final release.
So it is partially for this reason that subsequent updates to the base image will be expected after its release, which will likely comprise of new binaries, additional scripts, further performance improvements, and the lightweight app store, to name a few. Just like a brand new Mac OS X!
@ChrisCharman I view Sorbet Leopard as a spiritual successor to AuroraSuite in particular, because it included AuroraTrimcelerator as part of the 'Speed' suite of packages, along with ShadowKiller and OnyX. So, Sorbet Leopard not only features many of the performance optimizations shipped with AuroraTrimcelerator, but much of the contents of the 'Ability', 'Aesthetic', and 'Update' package suites as well, therein more closely aligning with AuroraSuite as a whole rather than AuroraTrimcelerator alone. As for the rest, you've got the rationale exactly right.
Regarding the 8 GB download, I figured being that people download the 4.7 GB DL-DVD image of Leopard all the time, several more GB likely wouldn't be a problem for most. And it also wouldn't work in an automated / script form factor, as explained. Still, I am open to the idea of converting the final image into a DVD-sized installer sometime in the future in order to partially alleviate this, though.
Well, here's what one of my testers concluded with upon testing a current build from USB on G4 1.67 and G5 2.3 machines:
Obviously, using FireWire instead of USB would be faster and more organic to the hardware, but that is needless to say not always an option, especially for diagnostic purposes. Thus, USB compatibility.
The imported fonts have not appreciably impacted system performance over a vanilla Leopard install for neither better nor worse. As for the improved performance with less fonts enabled, I was indeed cognizant of that and am of the opinion that this is probably an action that the user needs to take themselves, because fonts are very much use case dependent. Perhaps a minor introduction document akin to AuroraTips from AuroraTrimcelerator can be included to walk the user through this process should they choose to do it.
I appreciate your explanation on the true nature of the SL on PPC project, it hadn't quite occurred to me before. I was always expecting the findings from the initial discovery to be actively converted into something that people can widely use, not necessarily enjoy studying from and contribute to as a shared experience so to speak. Thank you for clearing that confusion on my part.
I am 100% with you there on all types of free speech, no matter what certain sectors of society may label it as. And I merely brought up the 'sociopolitical' element for transparency and clarification purposes, that's all.
Concerning my signatory musings, it is a principle that I operate by in regards to others, not an iron rule. Silently, I only wish that others will behave similarly in return as they see fit. Given that the contents of many public webpages are automatically crawled and saved by entities such as the Internet Archive regardless, you may do as you wish.
So, being that vanilla Leopard does not make as much use of QuartzGL out-of-the-box (and therefore the GPU assuming it is fully OGL 2.0-compliant) as Sorbet Leopard does, the rationale is that where its use would accelerate certain applications on more powerful hardware equipped with GF6200s / R9550s and up, it can just as well slow down the system when the graphics hardware is insufficient to carry the specified load, like on FX5200s / R9200s and below.
Now with that said, you've given me an idea. I might in the future explore adding the ability to optionally disable QuartzGL acceleration altogether so that the system will also be fully compatible with FX5200 / R9200 cards, and with a reduced load on the GPU, still be faster on older machines than vanilla Leopard. However, as there is just roughly a week remaining, keep in mind the fruits of this exploration may or may not be included with the final release.
So it is partially for this reason that subsequent updates to the base image will be expected after its release, which will likely comprise of new binaries, additional scripts, further performance improvements, and the lightweight app store, to name a few. Just like a brand new Mac OS X!
@ChrisCharman I view Sorbet Leopard as a spiritual successor to AuroraSuite in particular, because it included AuroraTrimcelerator as part of the 'Speed' suite of packages, along with ShadowKiller and OnyX. So, Sorbet Leopard not only features many of the performance optimizations shipped with AuroraTrimcelerator, but much of the contents of the 'Ability', 'Aesthetic', and 'Update' package suites as well, therein more closely aligning with AuroraSuite as a whole rather than AuroraTrimcelerator alone. As for the rest, you've got the rationale exactly right.
Regarding the 8 GB download, I figured being that people download the 4.7 GB DL-DVD image of Leopard all the time, several more GB likely wouldn't be a problem for most. And it also wouldn't work in an automated / script form factor, as explained. Still, I am open to the idea of converting the final image into a DVD-sized installer sometime in the future in order to partially alleviate this, though.
Well, here's what one of my testers concluded with upon testing a current build from USB on G4 1.67 and G5 2.3 machines:
Obviously, using FireWire instead of USB would be faster and more organic to the hardware, but that is needless to say not always an option, especially for diagnostic purposes. Thus, USB compatibility.
The imported fonts have not appreciably impacted system performance over a vanilla Leopard install for neither better nor worse. As for the improved performance with less fonts enabled, I was indeed cognizant of that and am of the opinion that this is probably an action that the user needs to take themselves, because fonts are very much use case dependent. Perhaps a minor introduction document akin to AuroraTips from AuroraTrimcelerator can be included to walk the user through this process should they choose to do it.
I appreciate your explanation on the true nature of the SL on PPC project, it hadn't quite occurred to me before. I was always expecting the findings from the initial discovery to be actively converted into something that people can widely use, not necessarily enjoy studying from and contribute to as a shared experience so to speak. Thank you for clearing that confusion on my part.
I am 100% with you there on all types of free speech, no matter what certain sectors of society may label it as. And I merely brought up the 'sociopolitical' element for transparency and clarification purposes, that's all.
Concerning my signatory musings, it is a principle that I operate by in regards to others, not an iron rule. Silently, I only wish that others will behave similarly in return as they see fit. Given that the contents of many public webpages are automatically crawled and saved by entities such as the Internet Archive regardless, you may do as you wish.
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Sorbet Leopard Development - Feature Showcase #5
System Themes
Sorbet Leopard ships with a comprehensive OS X Mountain Lion theme, a comprehensive macOS High Sierra theme, and a supplementary iOS 7 theme. The iOS 7 theme is comprised of two screen savers courtesy of BodySoulSpirit, as well as expanded desktop pictures from various versions of iOS that are suitable for widescreen displays.
The OS X Mountain Lion theme is provided courtesy of the Mountain Leopard theme package, and is accompanied by the official desktop and user pictures shipped with 10.8.5, alongside an authentic About This Mac window.
The macOS High Sierra theme is provided courtesy of the LeopardRebirth theme package, and is accompanied by optimized versions of the official desktop and user pictures shipped with 10.13.6, alongside a (mostly) authentic About This Mac window.
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Sorbet Leopard will support GeForce FX 5200 / Radeon 9200 graphics cards and lower upon release.
System Themes
Sorbet Leopard ships with a comprehensive OS X Mountain Lion theme, a comprehensive macOS High Sierra theme, and a supplementary iOS 7 theme. The iOS 7 theme is comprised of two screen savers courtesy of BodySoulSpirit, as well as expanded desktop pictures from various versions of iOS that are suitable for widescreen displays.
The OS X Mountain Lion theme is provided courtesy of the Mountain Leopard theme package, and is accompanied by the official desktop and user pictures shipped with 10.8.5, alongside an authentic About This Mac window.
The macOS High Sierra theme is provided courtesy of the LeopardRebirth theme package, and is accompanied by optimized versions of the official desktop and user pictures shipped with 10.13.6, alongside a (mostly) authentic About This Mac window.
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Sorbet Leopard will support GeForce FX 5200 / Radeon 9200 graphics cards and lower upon release.
Thanks for configuring it to work with the FX 5200
Leopard always has worked with the FX5200’s
What is the point of adding incorrect OS info into About my Mac though? Sorry, didn’t get it.
@Amethyst1 LeopardRebirth uses different files for the About This Mac window than Mountain Leopard or vanilla Leopard does, which are trickier to modify on an automated basis. So that would be outside the scope of this project, especially this late in development. Perhaps @SourceSunTom can release a minor update to bring it more up-to-date. If he isn't retired yet, that is.
@barracuda156 A more convincing appearance, as if these OSes really were released for PowerPC back in the day. Otherwise, Startup Disk still shows 10.5.8, and uname still shows Darwin 9.8.0.
@barracuda156 A more convincing appearance, as if these OSes really were released for PowerPC back in the day. Otherwise, Startup Disk still shows 10.5.8, and uname still shows Darwin 9.8.0.
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If we could only port the 10.0.0d1 kernel from 10A96…. Then it’d be it’s own thing.
Sweet. Send over your crash logs.
Also, this project is premiering Darwin kernel 9.9.0, correct?