Star Trek: Alpha to Delta Quadrants & Everything In Between

[Scepticalscribe]

I just heard the sad news that Nichell Nichols passed away.

Yes, she indeed did at age 89. RIP

Oh, no.

She was wonderful, an amazing person and a terrific role model, - in her life and in her iconic and extraordinary role as Lieutenant Uhura - not just for people of colour, but for women, and women of colour above all.

 

[phrehdd]

Oh, no.

She was wonderful, an amazing person and a terrific role model, - in her life and in her iconic and extraordinary role as Lieutenant Uhura - not just for people of colour, but for women, and women of colour above all.

Agreed!

 

[Rafterman]

I find it interesting that you call out another poster for trying to inject LGBT issues in response to something that you wrote which contained no mention of LGBT. And here you are doing the same thing, injecting women equality issues into a question about canon and continuity. To paraphrase your response to the other poster, "Why the h3ll did you bring up that stuff? You seem obsessed about the subject."




Either Starfleet really did have that rule or they did not. If Starfleet did have a rule against women serving as captain, then the writers should explain why that rule was in place for the 3 years during TOS, but not before or after TOS. Don't you think that pretending it didn't happen would be like those groups who are accused of denying or 'whitewashing' certain historical events?

I am not talking about women's equality. It was the example that a poster noted and I was responding to it as it being a cultural artifact of it's time that is no longer pertinent to a modern audience. You know, not everyone grew up watching the TOS and wouldn't even know what the original poster was talking about.

As for the second part...why does it matter they explain it? You are taking a throwaway line from one guest star character in one episode from 55 years ago and making a far bigger deal out of it than it deserves.

 

[Huntn]

Are you saying that Star Trek is a parody of common sense?

That South Park video actually made more sense than many things in Star Trek. Matt and Trey never once said anything about the dog's appearance. There have been TV shows that replaced an actor for the same character. There have also been TV shows which cast the same actor as different, unrelated characters in different episodes. I have never seen a TV show switch through very different looking actors for the same character multiple times within the same episode. But it would not violate the show's internal consistency as long as there were no speech or actions which specifically make reference to the physical characteristics of an actor which then changed when that actor was switched out.

This is unlike Star Trek which did things like:
1. A woman claiming that Starfleet did not allow women to be captain, only for other series that take place in the same timeline and time period to regularly show women Starfleet captains.
2. Next Generation going to great lengths to constantly remind viewers of Data unable to use verbal contractions, with other characters specifically calling it out multiple times - even though he did use them in the first episode (in his normal state and of his own free will, as opposed to some alien influence).
3. Scotty believing that Kirk died in the energy ribbon, then later believing that Kirk came to rescue him in Relics.

No one forced the writers to put these things into the storyline. They chose to do it and then not clean up after themselves. Many of these holes could have been fixed with a single sentence.

So even when the creators of South Park make an intentionally extreme outrageous, off the top video, they still end up making more sense than many Star Trek writers who are allegedly trying to make a seriously thought out show. I'm not sure if that is a testament to Matt and Trey's genius or a knock against Star Trek writers who don't check their work or assume that their fanboys will always come to their rescue. In that regard, those Star Trek writers seem like Apple these days.

Actually I don’t know what South Park fireside chats have to do with Star Trek.

 

[Huntn]

Wow, episode 7 of Orville clocks in this week at 1 hour 35 minutes. That's movie-sized.

I thought this had been cancelled, looks like Hulu picked it up. Is this where you are watching it?

 

[Rafterman]

I thought this had been cancelled, looks like Hulu picked it up. Is this where you are watching it?

Yes. And it it quite good. The first two seasons didn't knock my socks off, because they tried to balance between drama and comedy and wasn't effective in either one, but season 3 has been outstanding as it has focused on drama.

 

[rhett7660]

I just heard the sad news that Nichell Nichols passed away.

Very sad indeed. RIP... There are not to many left of the original series now.

 

[decafjava]

Very sad indeed. RIP... There are not to many left of the original series now.

Willima Shatner, George Takei and Walter Koening iirc.

 

[obeygiant]

Data with a beard

 

[decafjava]

Does anyone know a way to get ST: SNW or Lower Decks in Switzerland? Seems Paramount plus is not available here...

 

[obeygiant]

Rare Star Trek Starring Earnest Borgnine as "Earnest BORG NINE"

 

[phrehdd]

Rare Star Trek Starring Earnest Borgnine as "Earnest BORG NINE"View attachment 2040453

Argh...but he is wells 'suited' given in 1979 he traveled through "The Black Hole."

 

[obeygiant]

Argh...but he is wells 'suited' given in 1979 he traveled through "The Black Hole."

Yes but if memory serves he tried to escape in the Palomino and was shot down and subsequently crashed into the Cygnus killing himself. Only the other crew members went thru the black hole.

 

[phrehdd]

Yes but if memory serves he tried to escape in the Palomino and was shot down and subsequently crashed into the Cygnus killing himself. Only the other crew members went thru the black hole.

Well done, as was he.

 

[obeygiant]

Uhura From Star Trek 3, and also check out Chekov's outfit.

 

[Blue Quark]

Rare Star Trek Starring Earnest Borgnine as "Earnest BORG NINE"View attachment 2040453

"You know what'cha gonna be in a minute, buddy?" *laughter* "Assimulated, that's what!" *more infectious laughter*

Ernest of Borg(nine): You will be made to laugh assimilated. (And probably well-fed, too.)

 

[Blue Quark]

So, since we're on the subject of science fiction (and evidently have been since 2016) I have a couple things to add, and also a request for just a little bit of help.

I grew up (yes, I know that's sometimes hard to believe) being a Buck Rogers and ST:TOS fan. Just because of timing and when things were being broadcast, I didn't get into Battlestar Galactica until what would be their "second season", i.e. the dreaded (and later disavowed) Galactica 1980. It wouldn't be until mid-way into the 1980s that I finally saw the first season of BSG, and of course how can you not fall in love. But anyhow...

Time passed, and of course I watched a lot of the other stuff and things also not mentioned yet in this thread, and then after a LOT of years went by, it was 2000, and a British guy named Neil Adams wrote a crossover fan-fic between 70s BSG and Buck Rogers. It kept me up late reading it, I can tell you that much. Of course, it has a LOT of little issues with it, and it recycled stuff we've seen elsewhere (and previously in either series) so it's not perfect, but the germ of the idea really occupied a lot of my attention for a few years because I started working on a writing project to continue the story when it became evident Mr. Adams (who I've tried to contact several times but failed) wasn't going to continue it.

Anyway, here's where I'm at (and I'll try to make this as brief as possible).

70s TV at its best was not even remotely as sophisticated as Babylon 5 in the 90s, or NuBSG in the 2000s (or a LOT of other things). And if we're being honest and objective, neither BR nor BSG was the "finest" which the 70s had to offer. Moreover, there were lots of really irritating things in BSG (terminology especially) and just so much was left out or never really thought through. Back when I was originally working on my writing project, I generated probably a foot-n-a-half (not quite half a meter, for our non-US friends) of pre-development material and sketches of ideas, all of which would do a lot more than just make the series (both of them) more sophisticated.

Fast-forward to this morning. I was out for my early morning bike ride before work and was thinking about food and supplies in the Buck Rogers universe (I recently picked up the project again and am posting it on fanfiction.net) which then kind of led me into a long thought process (which I won't repeat here) about the effects of a ca. 1980s nuclear WWIII. When I got home I started googling maps and looking for photos and other things, and anyhow I'm wondering if there's materials out there which might suggest what a post-80s WWIII new world order might actually look like. It's not that I'm either incapable or not inclined to work something out myself; I'm just curious what actual experts in the field may have suggested.

For example, everything I know tells me WWIII would be a northern-hemisphere thing. Obviously there would be tons of radiation traveling over the ENTIRE globe, but the southern hemisphere would probably be in better shape. Who knows: Brazil or even Columbia could become the new western hemisphere power brokers.

So, does anyone here have any insight or even just some really good links for this sort of story-background-development materials?

Oh, and btw, here's some links for those who might be interested:

Neil Adams' original ARMAGEDDON 2493 at galacticafanfic.com

My own The Armageddon Saga and Chapter Sketches at fanfiction.net

 

[obeygiant]

This pattern indicates two dimensional thinking.

 

[Rafterman]

This pattern indicates two dimensional thinking.

That never made sense. Khan was supposed to be a genius and didn't realize space is 3D? Maybe he was a stable genius.

 

[Mousse]

That never made sense. Khan was supposed to be a genius and didn't realize space is 3D? Maybe he was a stable genius.

Spock's observations shows that Khan is highly skilled at surface battles, but inexperienced at submarine, aerial or space battles. The operative word is inexperienced. Space travel was not as common in Khan's time as it is in Kirk's time. Battles between starships most likely non-existent.

For a Starfleet officer, using XYZ coordinates is second natured. For Khan, it's new. He is familiar with the XY plane, so most of his tactics revolve around surface battle tactics. Rommel and Patton would have gotten their (_!_) kicked if they had to cooridinate flying tank battles against someone from an era of flying tanks.😉

 

[Blue Quark]

That never made sense. Khan was supposed to be a genius and didn't realize space is 3D? Maybe he was a stable genius.

IQ is one thing; life experience is something completely different. And Khan didn't have the benefit of spending time doing space-borne battles. He was on Earth, then cryo-frozen and aboard Enterprise where all he did was deal with individuals in person and hand-to-hand, then he was marooned on Ceti Alpha V for fifteen years, and now he's back in space, in command of a starship for, like, what, perhaps a week at the most? That's not enough time to develop those sorts of skills, at least some of which involve doing the task.

Besides that, Khan was pretty much in full rage mode the whole time. All he was focused on after he effected escape was vengeance against Kirk. To quote Qui-Gon Jinn, your focus determines your reality. No matter how smart you are, if you want to get good at something, you have to put in the time.

 

[Blue Quark]

Now, since the subject of Star Trek II is suddenly thrust upon us, I have a fair few criticisms of that movie. Bear in mind, I grew up with Star Trek II and still think it's the best of the ST movies thus far produced. I was so obsessed with that movie as a kid that I learned the dialog verbatim. I can still quote it 30 years later. But anyhow, I digress.

First Criticism: The People In Charge Are To A Fault Small-Minded

Star Fleet is established as being a massive, multi-species, multi-system organization which is a part of the United Federation of Planets. For such a truly massive entity, they have so very very very few ships, and they're not well deployed. Realistically, Star Fleet ought to be portrayed as having tens- or even hundreds of thousands of ships. No, not all of them would be Constitution Class or Constitution-Refit Class, but without a doubt there should be a lot of those, too. To say that Enterprise "is the only ship in the quadrant" is completely idiotic. The writers obviously have no concept of what a "quadrant" actually is, or what the term clearly should imply.


Second Criticism: The Under-Realized Potential of Opportunism *and* Geography

In the run-up to what would have been Reliant's original mission, Star Fleet composed a list of potential candidate systems for the Genesis Phase 3 test, one of which included the Ceti Alpha system. In any organization of the type and nature of Star Fleet (for example, the U.S. Navy, or the British Royal Navy, etc.) activities of any significance get seen by, and often probably have to be approved by, security and/or intelligence-related departments. If we go based solely on what's shown in the movie and what's in the accompanying novel, Khan's re-discovery 15 years earlier and his sentence to Ceti Alpha V are not public knowledge. Likely, they are classified. That means, when the Ceti Alpha system would have been floated as a candidate for the Genesis test, one of two things should have happened. Either it should have been pulled from the list with some or possibly no reason given (in which case Reliant would never have gone there) or someone with a devious bent of mind should have green-lighted it, knowing full well that likely the test would have had the potential of wiping out other occupants in the system. After all, if Genesis was super safe, why not trial it in the Sol or Eridani or Betazed (etc., etc.) systems?


Third Criticism: Just How Incompetent Are We To Believe Reliant's Crew Is?

There were star charts of that system. Moreover, it would take a heck of a lot more than one planet exploding to cause Ceti Alpha V to change its orbit *at all*, much less to a significant degree. Moreover, planets don't just explode. That's not a thing. And if somehow CA VI *did* explode, dedicated science vessel U.S.S. Reliant wouldn't have detected anything? Again, we're talking (per Khan's account) 14 years and six months ago. That's not a lot of time for planetary-scale debris to travel. And nobody ever thought to ask "Hey, where's planet six of this system?"? Really? Sorry, but I don't buy it.


Fourth Criticism: Why Don't Ships Have Their Shields Up All The Time?

This is really not a criticism of ST:II so much as it is a criticism of the franchise as a whole. There's a LOT of crap floating around in "empty" space. Everything from stray subatomic particles to asteroids hurtles through space at speeds of at least 15,000 - 30,000 miles per hour. Many things travel significantly faster than that. Beyond that, when you're traveling using warp drive, you're potentially making the situation much worse. There's videos on YouTube which model what happens when you slam something into Earth at near the speed of light. And at super-high velocities, the tiniest of things can cause well beyond catastrophic harm. TL;DR: If you have shields, you d**n-well use them.

 

[Rafterman]

Fourth Criticism: Why Don't Ships Have Their Shields Up All The Time?

This is really not a criticism of ST:II so much as it is a criticism of the franchise as a whole. There's a LOT of crap floating around in "empty" space. Everything from stray subatomic particles to asteroids hurtles through space at speeds of at least 15,000 - 30,000 miles per hour. Many things travel significantly faster than that. Beyond that, when you're traveling using warp drive, you're potentially making the situation much worse. There's videos on YouTube which model what happens when you slam something into Earth at near the speed of light. And at super-high velocities, the tiniest of things can cause well beyond catastrophic harm. TL;DR: If you have shields, you d**n-well use them.

On point 4, ships have deflectors (which are different than shields) - that dish/glowing thing facing forward. They are supposed to clear debris out of the way so what you describe doesn't happen. Shields are for battle or to protect agsint larger objects that deflectors (also called navigation deflectors) can't handle. Unfortunately, throughout the series, the terms "shields" and "deflectors" were often interchanged wirthout much sense. I also heard the term "screens" used a few times. The curse of 846 episodes written over 50 years by hundreds of different writers.

But to be simpler - it's a TV writing thing. if shields were up all the time, then the captain couldn't dramatically call for raising them.

 

[cwerdna]

Since we're talking Khan, I came across https://www.startrek.com/news/excer...view-in-star-trek-genesis-trilogy-anniversary (EXCERPT: Nicholas Meyer's Wrath of Khan Interview in Star Trek: Genesis Trilogy Anniversary Special) recently. This stood out and I hadn't thought of it either.

If there’s a regret I have – which I didn’t have for the first 20 years and then somebody pointed it out to me, and I thought, “There’s an interesting missed moment” – it’s that Khan never sees Kirk get away. He goes to his death believing that he succeeded. I wonder, if I’d thought of it, would I have?

I have some ambivalence about taking it away from him, but it’s very interesting that we didn’t even think of it. You play that moment earlier when he realizes that there is no override, and they can’t do anything about raising the shields. That look of consternation – how different would that have been from his look at the end? Other than the man who goes to his death believing that he’s avenged his wife.

 

[Bug-Creator]

Star Fleet is established as being a massive, multi-species, multi-system organization which is a part of the United Federation of Planets. For such a truly massive entity, they have so very very very few ships, and they're not well deployed. Realistically, Star Fleet ought to be portrayed as having tens- or even hundreds of thousands of ships. No, not all of them would be Constitution Class or Constitution-Refit Class,

If we ground the ST universe as somewhat close to reality we end up with a very limited number of habitable planets and lots and lots more of empty space and dead systems in between.
There is also the question of how many active armed ships does Starfleet need when not in active war with the Klingons or Romulans (everybody else seems more like small fries)?

That means, when the Ceti Alpha system would have been floated as a candidate for the Genesis test, one of two things should have happened. Either it should have been pulled from the list with some or possibly no reason given (in which case Reliant would never have gone there) or someone with a devious bent of mind should have green-lighted it,

Reality makes it clear that bureaucracy will always be incompetent and that having more than 1 "security" agency handling confidential information will lead to them NOT working together.