Surely Apple has employees who read these forums...

[ardchoille50]

Surely Apple has employees who read these forums... right??

Read.. I have no doubt that some of them do. However, in order for Apple, as a company, to rely on anything in these forums, they would need full access to the forums database (metadata, user information, etc.) - things a regular user cannot see. Given the ease with which one can obtain the requirements for a membership here, it would be foolhardy to assume there are zero sock puppet accounts (one person holding several forum user accounts). Yes, sock puppets are against the rules here, but they're not impossible to create and their very existence brings the credibility of forum content directly into question in the eyes of a corporation.

 

[ActionableMango]

I'm of two minds on this. As a consumer and fan of the cMP, slots, bays, expandability, and upgradability, I repeatedly criticize Apple for the direction they are going with their computers.

As an Apple shareholder however, my view is quite different because of the data that I read.

All the major PC makers are seeing declining PC sales quarter after quarter for years now, but in the same time period Apple has repeatedly bucked the trend. For example in 2014 the PC industry as a whole dropped 5%, but Mac sales were up 12%.

So we are essentially telling Apple, "Hey, see all those PC makers in decline? Make your computers more like those." That's a tough pitch.

As for Tim Cook doing a bad job? He's holding Mac sales steady in a declining industry and during his tenure he's nearly doubled the Mac installed user base. If anyone thinks that's a terrible job and Cook should be fired immediately, then you must have some extremely high expectations for whoever you think can do it better.

 

[aaronhead14]

By definition there was nothing to despise in what I said. Today's products were conceived, designed and produced yesterday when today was the future. That was 'this way of thinking'. Perhaps what you really despise is that you can not get what you want right now when you want it and as I said originally: "I can see your point". But it's a tough life.

I guess what I'm saying is: there's no reason to think Apple can't innovate new products while still updating the Mac Pro (which is arguably Apple's best product anyway)
[doublepost=1482433995][/doublepost]

That was just silly: Is the story here that Apple can't update a computer because they're going to make some new thing that this consumer base really wants? Really? Like what?

Apple doesn't make a lot of computer hardware, they assemble components that somebody else made. They didn't make the D700 or the xeon chip that run the trash can. They're sitting around waiting for other hardware manufacturers to make parts they can throw into machines. (Though I think the Mac Pro is done, personally).

I think you've totally missed what I'm saying. The story is that Apple shouldn't have to ditch updating a computer because of their "new things." But... it seems like they are.

And yeah, everybody knows that Apple doesn't make the hardware... which is precisely why it's even more nonsensical that they haven't updated the Mac Pro in so long. Literally all they'd have to do is throw everything into a tower, work with Nvidia to create Pascal drivers and... THAT'S IT. Seriously, it's not that hard. There's no reason for them to not do it.

 

[Hank Carter]

Indeed, the Mac Pro and Mac Mini just appear to sell so little that it isn't worth it for Apple anymore. At least, not in Cooks eyes.\

The reason why they don't sell is because they are outdated, poorly designed and overpriced. By that logic Ford should have stopped making cars after the Edsel.

 

[aaronhead14]

Magsafe is awesome

Why is everyone whining about Magsafe? I love Magsafe too, but it has literally nothing to do with this thread.

 

[slughead]

Read.. I have no doubt that some of them do. However, in order for Apple, as a company, to rely on anything in these forums, they would need full access to the forums database (metadata, user information, etc.) - things a regular user cannot see. Given the ease with which one can obtain the requirements for a membership here, it would be foolhardy to assume there are zero sock puppet accounts (one person holding several forum user accounts). Yes, sock puppets are against the rules here, but they're not impossible to create and their very existence brings the credibility of forum content directly into question in the eyes of a corporation.

I kinda got that Sock-puppet vibe back in 2013 when this forum went full reality-distortion-field on the trash can (though those were probably just kool-aid drinking optimists, at the end of the day).... but are you saying Apple can't rely on opinions from this forum because people are making sock-puppet accounts to voice opinions? Like what? We want more video cards options?

In fact, on a more Cartesian level, how do you know you're not just a figment of my imagination, your whole life just something I thought up while trolling on my laptop while I sit on the toilet? Matrix is real? Red pill? Get woke!

Seriously though, what are you saying? I don't think I get it.
[doublepost=1482434294][/doublepost]

Why is everyone whining about Magsafe? I love Magsafe too, but it has literally nothing to do with this thread.

What, you think just because you started the thread you know what this thread is about? Bah!

 

[aaronhead14]

You can have that right now. Minus the Pascal GPU...

I ditched my nMP for this machine:
-Broadwell-e 6850K
-64GBs RAM with expandability up to 128GBs
-NVME M.2
-980ti
-Plenty of PCIE-e slots
-Plenty of room for additional SSDs

You literally just described my custom PC build! (Minus the 980ti, I have the 1080). I just couldn't pull the trigger on a 980ti because it's... well, old (and not really any cheaper than the 1080). And for what I do, I need as much power as possible. The 1080's working great. Just wish Apple would throw it into a Mac Pro so that I could buy it and run macOS.

 

[slughead]

I think you've totally missed what I'm saying. The story is that Apple shouldn't have to ditch updating a computer because of their "new things." But... it seems like they are.

I know that's what you were saying, I was agreeing with you and disagreeing iwth the other guy you were quoting.

 

[ardchoille50]

I kinda got that Sock-puppet vibe back in 2013 when this forum went full reality-distortion-field on the trash can (though those were probably just kool-aid drinking optimists, at the end of the day).... but are you saying Apple can't rely on opinions from this forum because people are making sock-puppet accounts to voice opinions? Like what? We want more video cards options?

In fact, on a more Cartesian level, how do you know you're not just a figment of my imagination, your whole life just something I thought up while trolling on my laptop while I sit on the toilet? Matrix is real? Red pill? Get woke!

Seriously though, what are you saying? I don't think I get it.

Well, let me think of one example.

A user is not happy with the fact that the RAM is now soldered to the main board. So, he uses a forum account to post a thread expressing his dislike of how Apple is "going down the drain". He then logs into each of his other 50 forum accounts (sock puppets) to like and agree with the OP. We now have a thread in which it appears 51 people are not happy with a product when the entire thread is one user attempting to manipulate others.

I've served as a moderator on several forums, and admin'd a few, over the years and I cannot count the number of times I've caught people doing exactly this. There is no limit to the lengths some people will go to in order to avoid the fact that they may be wrong - especially those who engage in gross generalization.

I'm not saying this is the case every time, but the possibility of this type of thing means that forum content cannot always be taken at face value. I firmly believe that it would be detrimental for a company to rely on information from a forum that is not under their complete control.

 

[Ph.D.]

Why is everyone whining about Magsafe? I love Magsafe too, but it has literally nothing to do with this thread.

Back on topic: I'd expect many people at Apple personally browse forums such as this, and some may even unofficially participate (secretly, likely on pain of dismissal). Apple might even have an office charged with keeping tabs on public sentiment, e.g. for marketing purposes. But this forum specifically? The signal to noise ratio is usually pretty low here these days. With Apple's lack of attention to prospective Mac Pro buyers, every thread is a slippery slope towards trolling and bitching.

 

[CapnDavey]

this fits the topic Leo Laporte advocating the return of the cheese grater mac pro

 

[ActionableMango]

I've served as a moderator on several forums, and admin'd a few, over the years and I cannot count the number of times I've caught people doing exactly this. There is no limit to the lengths some people will go to in order to avoid the fact that they may be wrong - especially those who engage in gross generalization.

I believe you, but even so I struggle with the thought of someone making 50 accounts in order to make it look like he's winning an internet argument.

 

[Macist]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/how-apple-alienated-mac-loyalists

If the entire Mac line feels like an afterthought to you that's because it is. Apple is going to crash and burn. No, I don't mean the usual 'Apple is doomed' claim, I mean they will follow brands like Nokia in going straight from top dog to oblivion before re-emerging in a much smaller form.

In a way this may not be a bad thing. Perhaps a Mac-mad billionaire can snap up Apple for a cut price and install people that care about the platform and making it killer again.

 

[teagls]

You literally just described my custom PC build! (Minus the 980ti, I have the 1080). I just couldn't pull the trigger on a 980ti because it's... well, old (and not really any cheaper than the 1080). And for what I do, I need as much power as possible. The 1080's working great. Just wish Apple would throw it into a Mac Pro so that I could buy it and run macOS.

Yeh unfortunately there aren't pascal drivers available, but the 980ti is still a decent card. I have a Pascal Titan X in a Linux box that I use for remote compute/machine learning. But i'd prefer to put it in my hackintosh. Maybe one day!

 

[singhs.apps]

during his tenure he's nearly doubled the Mac installed user base.

How much of that might be the IOS device halo effect rather than pure consideration of said mac systems ? I agree that mac user base has expanded but no doubt the iPhone had something to do with it.

Declining PC sales is on the lower end of the spectrum where users can just do what they used to on their PCs - surf, email, office on mobile devices, including laptops. A desktop PC is virtually overkill these days for such tasks. Hence the decline. The target user base just moved over to mobile devices- smartphones and tablets.. Just as the ipod declined due to iphone.

The likes of Macpros and other workstations just can't do that yet.

No Body is saying make it like the PCs. We are saying make it as powerful as the PCs - AGAIN .. Like Apple used to. For WORK !
[doublepost=1482439314][/doublepost]

Perhaps a Mac-mad billionaire can snap up Apple for a cut price and install people that care about the platform and making it killer again.

Or people will just stick to the alternatives. Once burnt,twice shy.

Don't underestimate the power of the evangelists. Just saying.

 

[Ph.D.]

As for Tim Cook doing a bad job? He's holding Mac sales steady in a declining industry and during his tenure he's nearly doubled the Mac installed user base. If anyone thinks that's a terrible job and Cook should be fired immediately, then you must have some extremely high expectations for whoever you think can do it better.

I also own Apple stock (indirectly, through mutual funds). Quite a bit, even. Judging from the stock price and assuming your numbers are right, I agree, he's done well, and I'd applaud that part of his performance.

But I'm concerned that a lot of that was sheer momentum combined with the failure of competitors to do anything much beyond turning beige boxes into slightly faster charcoal-gray boxes. Indeed, a desire to not do that - turn a raw aluminum cMP tower into a "space gray" cMP tower - is likely part of what led to the nMP. Despite all the derision about "courage," the nMP did take chances, and it indeed was a more modern platform from which to grow. Except, of course, it didn't grow, and we've seen all other Mac development slow down too.

This is disappointing to someone who prefers the Mac to other computing platforms, including hand-held. Yet I think it's correct for Apple to tilt their focus elsewhere (just do it while providing a few more updates along the way, please), because general Mac/Windows-like computing platforms definitely have peaked.

More broadly, I'm not sure Apple's growth will continue. Rather, we may have seen or be approaching "peak Apple." I don't trade actively, so I'm not going to start shorting it, but I likely wouldn't be a buyer today. Unless we are entering an era in which corporations successfully rent-seek to the degree that all other innovators are stunted (which actually looks perilously close to reality), the next Apple will come from nowhere.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Most probably some of Apple employees read this Forum.
Anyway, the question is whether it matters or not, whether the problems, ideas raised have any effect on Apple's decisions and acts.

 

[OS6-OSX]

Maybe there is an emoji for stupidity that we could use for Tim Cook's Apple. Maybe Tim's cartoonish, dumb, wide eyed stare.

He has that stare because he is being exposed! He is a good politician and he knows to NEVER have an open mic session with the public. This way he can continue to say silly things about the iPad (pro). This is one arena where this is possible.
Picture TC as a certain type of musician with this approach.

Jazz-TC on stage with Charlie Parker and Dizzy. After Bird and Diz solos TC goes to the mic and says how great that was.
Bird and Diz yells, "TC, shut up and solo or get off the stage!"

Classical-TC on stage with Yo-Yo Ma playing the Elgar cello concerto. Even though I think this is Jacqueline du Pre's signature piece Y0-Yo's performance is quite good. TC looks out into the audience knowing there is no way to BS his way through it, takes his cello and leaves the stage. Yo-Yo looks on in disgust!

Rock/Metal-TC on stage with guitar giants Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoads, Bucket Head and Yngwie Malmsteen. Again, after those four battle it out with intense solos, TC is asked to come from behind the speaker and take his solo!

Opera-TC on stage with Placido Domingo and Lucerno Pavarotti. They are singing Aria's "greatest hits". They were all in makeup for Pagliacci to sing vesti la giubba. Domingo-Bravo! Pavarotti-Bravo! TC-Just stood there exposed with that "wide eyed stare" behind clown makeup!

 

[1024724]

Unfortunately I feel Apple are so arrogant they'll just think people aren't buying Macs because of changing markets or change in customer habits.. not because they're failing to release new hardware, and failing to produce the machines that their customers actually want to buy.

This is exactly why this current era sucks so badly and seems to be a no win situation.

How I see this conundrum progressing: Let's say Apple releases five new computers in 2017 and they all flop. But they flop strictly because they're genuinely just bad, underpowered, non-upgradeable, etc. Apple will interpret the lack of sales as confirmation that no one wants a computer anymore. They won't realize it's because they released regressed inferior machines that people don't want, and especially for the cost of multiple thousands of dollars.

Like the quote above says, lack of sales will only be seen as proof of changing markets and that personal computers are dead. We'd like to think that lack of sales would cause them to reflect and re-evaluate what they're producing. Unfortunately, I don't think Apple would see it that way.

 

[fisha]

Also, successful businesses need to look beyond immediate demands and work on things you'll want in the future that you've maybe not even thought about.

Whilst that may be a general plausible explanation, I think the last few years show that Apple hasn't been doing that with regards the the desktop/pro market. Ignoring the possibilities of falsifying sock puppet data, for the last number of years there has been a consistent and persistent voice of opinion from pro-sumers that the desktop lines of Apple were missing the mark.

So go back to a time 4 years ago, where people were asking for xMac type machines ... if Apple ignored based on working towards machines that we want in the future, we should really be at that point by now. Typical development cycles from idea conception to production for most computer tech would complete within that sort of time frame.

Yet, 4 years down the line, the situation hasn't really changed ... implying Apple hasn't been focussing in that future tech that we want. And I think that is bearing out through machines not really being innovative or offering that.

As an Apple shareholder however, my view is quite different because of the data that I read.

All the major PC makers are seeing declining PC sales quarter after quarter for years now, but in the same time period Apple has repeatedly bucked the trend. For example in 2014 the PC industry as a whole dropped 5%, but Mac sales were up 12%.

So we are essentially telling Apple, "Hey, see all those PC makers in decline? Make your computers more like those." That's a tough pitch.

That is a really good point of argument. But you have to look what is driving those Mac sales, and it is undoubtedly the iPhone/iPad market, and the general requirement for app development to done on an Mac. So if developers want to target the iPhone revenue streams, they essentially *have* to buy a Mac and not *want* to buy a Mac over a Windows machine. As a result, the Mac sales have bucked the trend of the general PC business, by riding the tail of the iPhone revenue.

And in doing so, I think Apple have become a bit lazy in their Mac development. In essence: "I don't have to upgrade this much as I know people will have to buy it anyway".

My overall concern is that by letting the Mac lines drift backwards a little from the forefront, there will come a time where they are so far behind that were a significant market shift happen, they wont have a viable proposition to maintain and attract market share to the eco-system.

The reality is that in such a market of disposable consumerism, people are prepared to shift allegiance when it suits them. And that can include eco-systems such as Apples. I personally think that we could be at the forefront of such as change. The iPhones haven't been as well received as before, the iPads similar, they are very good, but people aren't WOWing over them as much. The Android eco-system of hardware and software is catching up. The Macbooks, iMacs and MacPros are not being received as well as they used to be, and undoubtedly the PC/Windows eco-system is catching up / surpassing them in some respects.

To me, its a very valid argument that the the PC/Windows direction over the last few years has drawn a lot of attention and admiration, possibly more so than Apple ... and the mass markets may see that more attractive, and simply jump ship.

This could also be exacerbated by the recent move to subscription style services. Imagine your average consumer:

- Apps - for the most part, there is a comparable Android app.
- iTunes Music - Can get all my subscribed music on a cheaper phone more suited to me.
- Cloud - Onedrive eco-system is a fairly proficient offering which works across many platforms
- Pro-sumer productivity - Can get Adobe stuff on Windows just as a I can on MacOS
- Desktop hardware - Can get more powerful, cheaper on Windows/PC side

So what is *really* keeping that person on the Apple eco-system... to me its its becoming less and less. I think that we are reaching an apogee with Apple.

Now if I see that, then surely people at Apple must think that too? or read comments like this as well?

 

[Macist]

Like the quote above says, lack of sales will only be seen as proof of changing markets and that personal computers are dead. We'd like to think that lack of sales would cause them to reflect and re-evaluate what they're producing. Unfortunately, I don't think Apple would see it that way.

Let's face it, if Apple launched a 'Mac Midi' (upgradable mid-size aluminium tower in choice of rose gold) and a tower Mac Pro for only a moderate premium over the Windows world they'd sell, sell, sell. Like crazy.

If they brought out a FatBook Pro (about the width of a pre-retina laptop but with all the stuff people need and upgradability) it would sell like crazy too.

Y'know I think they'd DOUBLE Mac sales, perhaps triple them. Why? Because people disgusted by less and less upgradability from Apple and are hanging on to seriously aged machines would buy again. Many of the forced hackintoshers would probably return too. I know some pros that, while their hackintoshes work fine, feel 'funny' about using a hack as a professional money-making machine.

 

[nigelbb]

[EDIT: there are actually like >5 types of magsafe chargers of varying wattages and plugs so clearly adding one more isn't outlandish. however the magsafe 2 connector was created specifically for thinness]

The problem with the thinness of Magsafe 2 is that the magnet is smaller & less sticky so it doesn't work as well as the old larger Magsafe. With the original Magsafe you just had to touch the plug on the socket & the power of the magnet would snap it into place whereas the Magsafe 2 needs to be more carefully aligned & actively plugged in by the user. A newer thinner Magsafe 3 as an alternative to USB-C would be so thin as a to be useless as a magnetic connector.
[doublepost=1482507763][/doublepost]

That is a really good point of argument. But you have to look what is driving those Mac sales, and it is undoubtedly the iPhone/iPad market, and the general requirement for app development to done on an Mac. So if developers want to target the iPhone revenue streams, they essentially *have* to buy a Mac and not *want* to buy a Mac over a Windows machine. As a result, the Mac sales have bucked the trend of the general PC business, by riding the tail of the iPhone revenue.

I seriously doubt that the rise in Mac sales is due to iPhone app developers. Rise in sales is due to the iPhone halo effect that people are used to & like iOS on their iPhone & iPad & when shopping for a computer choose one with the same look & feel that seamlessly integrates with their iPhone & iPad.

 

[pat500000]

Let's play the game of clue....mr plum...mrs Scarlett....or anyone of us could be Apple employees....hmm.

On serious note..who knows.

 

[singhs.apps]

This is exactly why this current era sucks so badly and seems to be a no win situation.

This era reminds me of the excitement and innovation that used to exist late 90s in the DCC arena.Sure the x86 processors are giving incremental upgrades, but the rest of the hardware - graphics, ram, storage, IOs, display, as well softwares are moving ahead really well. What was once the domain of large setups can now be accomplished by a small team with resources at their disposal to produce good work.

Stevejobs described a post PC era with the advent of iPhone. But that sheen is wearing off. Today's market is lot more competitive and the ugly PCs and android phones are catching up and innovating in the arena Apple used to dominate.

What we may well be seeing is the rumblings of a post smartphone era... AR/VR, smart home devices, 3D printers, smart vehicles, robots ...Tomorrow's consumer will be the prosumer...

But to develop for that segment you still needs robust hardware and software. How long can Apple expect to ride the iPhone wave when there are serious and capable alternatives ?

 

[slughead]

The problem with the thinness of Magsafe 2 is that the magnet is smaller & less sticky so it doesn't work as well as the old larger Magsafe. With the original Magsafe you just had to touch the plug on the socket & the power of the magnet would snap it into place whereas the Magsafe 2 needs to be more carefully aligned & actively plugged in by the user. A newer thinner Magsafe 3 as an alternative to USB-C would be so thin as a to be useless as a magnetic connector.

While that's a good point, they may not even need to make a new magsafe connector for the new one (magsafe 2 is probably fine). Also, the Magsafe 2 connector is just fine, yes, it's not as strong as magsafe 1 but it's still great. I use it daily and I did have an old whitebook once upon a time. You're the first person I've seen complain about magsafe 2.

The magsafe 2 already does 85 watts, I'm not sure another 15 is going to require any change. Also, it's still pretty darn thin so maybe it doesn't need to be modified for the formfactor