A very sad state of affairs that Apple's power users have also been consumerized.
It sounds similar to that wonderful P setting on cameras which does everything for you and is referred to as setting the camera at P for Professional.
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It sounds similar to that wonderful P setting on cameras which does everything for you and is referred to as setting the camera at P for Professional.
In addition to your hardware desire, I would like to see a pro-user macOS software feature set. Not splitting macOS into the Windows home, business, enterprise format. But a built-into-all-macOS pro-user feature set. For example, a few nights ago I had this cool dream where systemwide I had five buttons instead of the three close/minimize/maximize. In the dream, I don’t remember that I clicked both the additional two, but one of them was make the window fit the screen without entering full screen mode. How convenient if I could choose to have four buttons there instead of three. I want more than the red/yellow/green or graphite; let me choose from the color palette or at least give me a swatch set of pre-chosen colors. I want customization options—lots. I have had a few beers, tired and am unable to remember something else related and important to me that I would include. But I am getting tired of being restricted and limited by Apple’s “we have to make one size fits all simple as can be for everybodies, you don’t get advanced options.” Those who want cookie cutter feature set, here you go by default; You want more advanced options, open the new macOS Pro utility: mix and match freely, enjoy. UI options are not necessarily pro features, but you get the gist. But at least the next iOS point release will have new Messages stickers 
I’ve used Mac since elementary school, then high school, and bought my first Mac 2003.
I’ve used Mac since elementary school, then high school, and bought my first Mac 2003.
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Ive only seen one mac pro being brougght into a apple store and it looked so sexy.
NowI see why you all complain about the Mac Pro,
I just downloaded the demo version of "X-Plane 11." I have been either trying or buying X-Plane since Version 9, and every time I use it, it fails miserably.
X-Plane 9 on 2010 Mac Mini: Okay on average graphics settings, but flops when the pressure is on.
X-Plane 10 on 2010 Mac Mini: Same settings are needed, slower performance.
X-Plane 11 on 2014 Retina Macbook "Pro:" All graphics settings need to be set to low. And even then I still get 10 FPS!!!!
Didn't want to say this, but I have been buying Apple products for almost a decade now. The first was an iPod nano back in 2007 or 08 for my dad for Father's Day. If they decide to phase out the computer market, I will never buy from them again. They are very arrogant when it calls to slapping the "pro" label on it's products, but when you put it next to a homemade PC it'll be like putting a clydesdale up to race against a pony.
Apple, you should be ashamed of yourself. Greed will get you nowhere, and that's what this is all about at the end of the day. Worst graphics card in the best computers, why??? There's nothing "pro" about that at all when you can buy something cheaper to do more, even if it is ugly.
WHat a joke!!!
I just downloaded the demo version of "X-Plane 11." I have been either trying or buying X-Plane since Version 9, and every time I use it, it fails miserably.
X-Plane 9 on 2010 Mac Mini: Okay on average graphics settings, but flops when the pressure is on.
X-Plane 10 on 2010 Mac Mini: Same settings are needed, slower performance.
X-Plane 11 on 2014 Retina Macbook "Pro:" All graphics settings need to be set to low. And even then I still get 10 FPS!!!!
Didn't want to say this, but I have been buying Apple products for almost a decade now. The first was an iPod nano back in 2007 or 08 for my dad for Father's Day. If they decide to phase out the computer market, I will never buy from them again. They are very arrogant when it calls to slapping the "pro" label on it's products, but when you put it next to a homemade PC it'll be like putting a clydesdale up to race against a pony.
Apple, you should be ashamed of yourself. Greed will get you nowhere, and that's what this is all about at the end of the day. Worst graphics card in the best computers, why??? There's nothing "pro" about that at all when you can buy something cheaper to do more, even if it is ugly.
WHat a joke!!!
Not saying that the rMBPs are great or bad (I haven't used one), but just because they have "pro" doesn't mean anything. And were you using the 13" or 15" rMBP? The 13" had Iris iGPU, while the 15" had Iris Pro iGPU AND a dGPU. if you were having FPS problems on the 13", that's to be expected (NOT A GAMING LAPTOP). However, if it was that bad on the 15", I would guess it's a software issue.
You are right. But it used to mean something.
I remember when the significant difference between a MacBook and a MacBook Pro was having a dedicated GPU or not. I took it as a bad sign when they started selling MacBook Pros with integrated video. Then I took it as a second bad sign when they stopped selling 17" MacBook Pros.
It's been nothing but bad signs since then, in their inexorable march toward smaller, thinner, less capable computers.
No offense, but you're expecting integrated GPUs to run a complicated 3D game. Yes it meets the "minimum" requirements put there by the game manufacturer, but I'm pretty sure a lot of those are just enough so the game doesn't crash.
While I agree that especially the Macbook Pro is woefully underpowered in the GPU department, even if you drop > $4,000 on a 'decked out' 2016 model, you should know what you're buying before you get it.
There's nothing magical about Apple hardware. Apple sells a $2,400 laptop with the same graphics performance as a desktop GPU released in 2008. They do this because they don't give a **** about gamers or professionals that need a better GPU. Battery life and "thinness" are their priorities, not X-Plane.
If you want to dump 6 grand, by contrast, on a Trash can pro with dual D700 and boot into Windows, I'm sure that'll run Xplane great
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You are right. But it used to mean something.
I remember when the significant difference between a MacBook and a MacBook Pro was having a dedicated GPU or not. I took it as a bad sign when they started selling MacBook Pros with integrated video. Then I took it as a second bad sign when they stopped selling 17" MacBook Pros.
It's been nothing but bad signs since then, in their inexorable march toward smaller, thinner, less capable computers.
Well their dGPU in their base 15" $2400 rMBP 2016 only has 25% more TFLOPS than the Iris Pro iGPU. It's both a sign that Apple is slowing down with their dGPU upgrades and iGPUs have come a long way.
I understand the desire for customization, but you can only go so far until you fall off the cliff named interoperability. You will find it difficult to sit down at another user's Mac and be immediately productive, and vice versa.In addition to your hardware desire, I would like to see a pro-user macOS software feature set. Not splitting macOS into the Windows home, business, enterprise format. But a built-into-all-macOS pro-user feature set. For example, a few nights ago I had this cool dream where systemwide I had five buttons instead of the three close/minimize/maximize. In the dream, I don’t remember that I clicked both the additional two, but one of them was make the window fit the screen without entering full screen mode. How convenient if I could choose to have four buttons there instead of three. I want more than the red/yellow/green or graphite; let me choose from the color palette or at least give me a swatch set of pre-chosen colors. I want customization options—lots. I have had a few beers, tired and am unable to remember something else related and important to me that I would include. But I am getting tired of being restricted and limited by Apple’s “we have to make one size fits all simple as can be for everybodies, you don’t get advanced options.” Those who want cookie cutter feature set, here you go by default; You want more advanced options, open the new macOS Pro utility: mix and match freely, enjoy. UI options are not necessarily pro features, but you get the gist. But at least the next iOS point release will have new Messages stickers
Of course Jobs had a vision with NeXT and its optical drive, that a student would be able to bring their entire world with them on an optical disk, slap it into any NeXT, and immediately have their customized environment available. I suppose the closest thing to that now would be carrying around an SSD in a Thunderbolt or USB3 enclosure. Or, if you're in a managed environment, you might have portable homes directories or something similar.
Anyway, what you want exists... Darwin, FreeBSD, Linux, etc.
What do you think of the upcoming XPS15 having a desktop grade 1050 and kaby lake in there (rumored late January)? Currently the xps15 is 1.5 mm thicker but has a 4k touch screen display, and better battery life. On a scale of 10-500, how delicious will the tears of the 4 grand rMBP 15" adopters be?You are right. But it used to mean something.
I remember when the significant difference between a MacBook and a MacBook Pro was having a dedicated GPU or not. I took it as a bad sign when they started selling MacBook Pros with integrated video. Then I took it as a second bad sign when they stopped selling 17" MacBook Pros.
It's been nothing but bad signs since then, in their inexorable march toward smaller, thinner, less capable computers.
Ultimately, gaming on the desktop is a dead end for Apple. Its not just about having the latest GPU/hardware, but game developers have little interest putting games and resources on a small user base. Last time I've heard, mobile gaming is suppose to pass both console and PC gaming this year. I'm not sure if thats actually happened though.
I think that that is a cop out. I am not using any other person’s Mac, I am using my own.
“Sorry, you can’t have more options. You may someday use somebody else’s Mac, which may be in some way sort of unfamiliar to you. So to keep you safe, we have this cookie cutter.
PS. Our iOS stickers are now thinner!
Sincerely,
Team Cupertino”
PS. Our iOS stickers are now thinner!
Sincerely,
Team Cupertino”
While true, PC gaming is also expanding. So it's not like one is at the expense of another. More time gaming, less time doing healthy hobbies!
Edit: NOT saying Apple should put real GPUs in their products. They have never been and are not now for gamers. But there are some Professional uses, whatever that word means.
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Yes, that was weaksauce. I supposed they should drop all Apple products but Iphones and Ipads for that reason. Can't drop interoperability now can we!
If I had a trillion dollars, I'd buy Apple, force them to drop all their products, and reintroduce the newton!
Honestly I don't follow portables any more. I don't have the need for portability, so I haven't had a laptop in a long time.
The last one I did have was spiritually similar though, in that it was a "desktop class" laptop. 18" 1200P screen, two 2.5" drive bays, and full-size keyboard including dedicated numberpad, 6-key, and cursor keys. The CPU was soldered, but the GPU was MXM socketed, leaving open the possibility of an upgrade, but that proved to be untenable.
If it's on your own machine, and you will never, ever need to use a standard configuration macOS (or are willing to become proficient in both), I say go for it!
I agree totally with the original poster.
It's like Apple are orchestrating their own self fulfilling prophecy to give them an excuse to leave the professional sector...
Step 1: Claim no one uses Mac Pro's anymore
Step 2: In 2013 introduce an unexpandable Mac Pro totally unsuitable as a replacement for many owners (like me), who already own a classic Mac Pro tower.
Step 3: Report poor sales of the (new) Mac Pro line.
Step 4: Claim no one wants to buy pro machine's any more.
Step 5: Stop making them.
It's the perfect get out clause.
What Apple are missing though is products like the classic Mac Pro's with 30" displays were the 'wow' aspirational products for many - especially devoted semi pro or passionate enthusiasts (like me) and they've effectively taken that aspiration away.
These type of aspirational users are VERY important as (like me) they are the one's who are most loyal and who invest and update the most often.
Also we are the best ambassadors for the Apple brand - so we have a big 'trickle down' affect.
I shudder to think how much money I've indirectly generated for Apple over the last 20 years or so, but it's probably into the hundreds of thousands when I take in extended family members and work colleagues etc into consideration.
Not bad for an unimportant 'non pro'
So they need to realise having an aspirational flagship professional product is good for them even if it isn’t the biggest seller.
The current Mac Pro simply just isn't that product IMO - evidenced by the fact the very often when you visit an Apple Store there isn’t even one on display.
Once it can’t do as much as the product it replaces and then they stop even making the displays to go with it, it’s obviously abandoned and not an iconic, aspirational product any more.
If the recording studios, graphic designers and editing suites all use PCs, it'll be these products that many of the future pros will aspire to - and to think this used to be the Mac Pro's domain!!!
Not everyone who wants the expandability of a Mac Pro tower, needs it, but many want it all the same.
The same way a keen photographer might aspire to one day own a full frame DSLR with features they'll probably not use or a fantastic lens.
They might not be a 'pro' but they want to use the same gear as the pro's do, or...(and this is very important), he or she is more likely to become the pro of the future.
Use whatever excuse you like, but the fact is for many tasks my (almost 8 years old) tower is a much better solution than the trashcan Mac Pro is.
I write music using Logic on my Mac Pro (it's primary use) and do a bit of video editing and photoshopping too.
I'm not a pro (not for lack of trying), but I do enjoy its power and flexibility.
The expandability of internal storage and optical drives and the extra USB ports via PCIe that a Mac Pro tower gives, really is VERY useful.
Not to mention that I can run every OS from 10.6 to 10.12 and Windows 7 to 10.
I'm also able to use a 32" ultra HD display and burn Blu Ray on my 2009 Mac Pro precisely because it was upgradable.
Now I'd much rather that Apple had just offered a suitable upgrade for the Mac Pro. One that perhaps added USB3 and thunderbolt and lowered the energy use, but that didn't involve losing the options of expandability and burden me with the costs of transitioning everything to external boxes.
If they had offered me an improved tower in 2013 instead of the ridiculous form over function trashcan thing, I’d be typing this post on it.
Instead it’s coming from a Mac that is nearly 8 years old.
Way to go Apple!
PS: Sorry for the really long post!
It's like Apple are orchestrating their own self fulfilling prophecy to give them an excuse to leave the professional sector...
Step 1: Claim no one uses Mac Pro's anymore
Step 2: In 2013 introduce an unexpandable Mac Pro totally unsuitable as a replacement for many owners (like me), who already own a classic Mac Pro tower.
Step 3: Report poor sales of the (new) Mac Pro line.
Step 4: Claim no one wants to buy pro machine's any more.
Step 5: Stop making them.
It's the perfect get out clause.
What Apple are missing though is products like the classic Mac Pro's with 30" displays were the 'wow' aspirational products for many - especially devoted semi pro or passionate enthusiasts (like me) and they've effectively taken that aspiration away.
These type of aspirational users are VERY important as (like me) they are the one's who are most loyal and who invest and update the most often.
Also we are the best ambassadors for the Apple brand - so we have a big 'trickle down' affect.
I shudder to think how much money I've indirectly generated for Apple over the last 20 years or so, but it's probably into the hundreds of thousands when I take in extended family members and work colleagues etc into consideration.
Not bad for an unimportant 'non pro'
So they need to realise having an aspirational flagship professional product is good for them even if it isn’t the biggest seller.
The current Mac Pro simply just isn't that product IMO - evidenced by the fact the very often when you visit an Apple Store there isn’t even one on display.
Once it can’t do as much as the product it replaces and then they stop even making the displays to go with it, it’s obviously abandoned and not an iconic, aspirational product any more.
If the recording studios, graphic designers and editing suites all use PCs, it'll be these products that many of the future pros will aspire to - and to think this used to be the Mac Pro's domain!!!
Not everyone who wants the expandability of a Mac Pro tower, needs it, but many want it all the same.
The same way a keen photographer might aspire to one day own a full frame DSLR with features they'll probably not use or a fantastic lens.
They might not be a 'pro' but they want to use the same gear as the pro's do, or...(and this is very important), he or she is more likely to become the pro of the future.
Use whatever excuse you like, but the fact is for many tasks my (almost 8 years old) tower is a much better solution than the trashcan Mac Pro is.
I write music using Logic on my Mac Pro (it's primary use) and do a bit of video editing and photoshopping too.
I'm not a pro (not for lack of trying), but I do enjoy its power and flexibility.
The expandability of internal storage and optical drives and the extra USB ports via PCIe that a Mac Pro tower gives, really is VERY useful.
Not to mention that I can run every OS from 10.6 to 10.12 and Windows 7 to 10.
I'm also able to use a 32" ultra HD display and burn Blu Ray on my 2009 Mac Pro precisely because it was upgradable.
Now I'd much rather that Apple had just offered a suitable upgrade for the Mac Pro. One that perhaps added USB3 and thunderbolt and lowered the energy use, but that didn't involve losing the options of expandability and burden me with the costs of transitioning everything to external boxes.
If they had offered me an improved tower in 2013 instead of the ridiculous form over function trashcan thing, I’d be typing this post on it.
Instead it’s coming from a Mac that is nearly 8 years old.
Way to go Apple!
PS: Sorry for the really long post!
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If there are Apple engineers who reads these forums, I'm sure that they find this all very depressing. They agree with you, but know that the situation is hopeless. The pre-2013 Mac Pro was the one remaining platform that users could customize, and that had an ecosystem of hardware developers making cards for users who wanted to go beyond what Apple provided.
The (rapidly-aging) new Mac Pro killed off that aftermarket ecosystem. Who would spend money making new graphics cards that would work only in a small market? That was the judgment of not only the aftermarket companies, but of Apple as well. Apple created a Mac Pro that was non-upgradable not just for us fanboys, but for Apple itself. New generations of GPUs have come along, and have bypassed the Mac Pro. And what could a Mac Pro owner do as Thunderbolt 2 became obsolete? Not a damned thing.
Apple can't be bothered to update anything in what once would have been their flagship product. If they introduce another non-upgradable boutique trashcan in 2017 then they better also open up macOS to the hackintoshers. Without the support of enthusiastic users, Apple products will appeal only to the fashion followers, who will quickly move on to the next shiny thing.
At the moment there are following possibilities to get a Mac with an adequate GPU:
- Mac Pro 2013 (way too expensive for the old hardware, e.g. GPU's from 2011)
- eGPU with Nvidia card (as you have already a Thunderbolt MacBook Pro)
- Hackintosh
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Went Hackintosh in 2013 after seeing the new Mac Pro release. Nothing Apple has made since has encouraged me to return to their hardware store. I now have a second Hackintosh running El Capitan on an overclocked i5 (4GHz) with 2666 MHz DDR3 RAM and a 4 GB GTX 770. I will watch out for an iMac to replace this, but I'm not holding my breath or my wallet.
Meanwhile my Mac Pro 3,1 still chugs along just fine. Built to last and having a blast.
Meanwhile my Mac Pro 3,1 still chugs along just fine. Built to last and having a blast.
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Yeah that one threw my for a loop too. I wish we knew what their sales figures are. I personally think the 6,1 will be the last trash can but I'm wondering what they're waiting for. Do they have dwindling supply they're ramping down? Do they have contracts with component manufacturers with no place to go? Are there still some goof balls actually buying these things?
Wasn't this also one of the only Apple hardware products manufactured in the US? Maybe it's political.
I'm not going to guess, but 1100 days with no update in sight and no change in prices is crazy. Happy new year!
The difference is the X-serve was a very niche product, they could afford to kill it off.
And they still announced its cull months before.
Unlike the Mac Pro which was quite a popular product and ubiquitous in recording studios, graphic design studios and editing suites the world over (not to mention in many homes too), so it's not the same thing at all.
However it's not just the Mac Pro Apple are killing off, they are slowly killing off all of their pro line.
They no longer make a 17" Macbook Pro, 30" cinema display, 27" cinema display or a tower based Mac - products all of which would have been used by power users.
This basically leaves you an iMac or a screenless iMac (Mac Mini), as the only option for a desktop Mac and they've effectively 'sealed' them now too, so no expandability.
The 'current' Mac Pro is nearly 3 years old and completely over priced and again unexpandable, so isn't a viable option for many.
That's the whole thrust of this thread.
The thing is I agree that this segment was and always will be a small segment for Apple.
And I agree that it was never a big money spinner directly, but indirectly it was very significant - particularly for the status of the company.
It's a very important sector in that regard and IMO Apple are making a HUGE mistake not realising this.
If Apple continue to alienate and ignore the pro segment, they (and their products) will lose their aspirational status pretty quick.
The Mac Pro alone wasn't responsible for this of course, but it was a very significant factor.
I used to look at one hooked up to two 30" screens in a studio and think how 'one day I'd love to own a setup like that'.
That's what they are losing, they are effectively killing off their aspirational market.
BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche all make flagship models that most cannot buy, it's what makes the rest of their product line so attractive.
Mercedes may not sell many S-Class models, but it indirectly drives the huge volumes of sales of the A-class - it's the association with the brand because of it's heritage of making such expensive cars that people want.
Apple used to offer this with their Pro line up.
They no longer do so.
It's a HUGE mistake IMO.
And they still announced its cull months before.
Unlike the Mac Pro which was quite a popular product and ubiquitous in recording studios, graphic design studios and editing suites the world over (not to mention in many homes too), so it's not the same thing at all.
However it's not just the Mac Pro Apple are killing off, they are slowly killing off all of their pro line.
They no longer make a 17" Macbook Pro, 30" cinema display, 27" cinema display or a tower based Mac - products all of which would have been used by power users.
This basically leaves you an iMac or a screenless iMac (Mac Mini), as the only option for a desktop Mac and they've effectively 'sealed' them now too, so no expandability.
The 'current' Mac Pro is nearly 3 years old and completely over priced and again unexpandable, so isn't a viable option for many.
That's the whole thrust of this thread.
The thing is I agree that this segment was and always will be a small segment for Apple.
And I agree that it was never a big money spinner directly, but indirectly it was very significant - particularly for the status of the company.
It's a very important sector in that regard and IMO Apple are making a HUGE mistake not realising this.
If Apple continue to alienate and ignore the pro segment, they (and their products) will lose their aspirational status pretty quick.
The Mac Pro alone wasn't responsible for this of course, but it was a very significant factor.
I used to look at one hooked up to two 30" screens in a studio and think how 'one day I'd love to own a setup like that'.
That's what they are losing, they are effectively killing off their aspirational market.
BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche all make flagship models that most cannot buy, it's what makes the rest of their product line so attractive.
Mercedes may not sell many S-Class models, but it indirectly drives the huge volumes of sales of the A-class - it's the association with the brand because of it's heritage of making such expensive cars that people want.
Apple used to offer this with their Pro line up.
They no longer do so.
It's a HUGE mistake IMO.
I get the sentiment, but I believe Apple's marketing department and their massive data collection put them in a better position to know compared to you or I the "synergistic" or "loss-leader" products.
In fact I'd say Apple's got the best PR and marketing department of any fortune 500 company. The mediocre crap that they convince their users to buy is staggering. It may be a mistake to kill off the pros, but if Apple does so, I actually think it's an indicator that what you're saying isn't true. The Apple Chic is no longer based on high-power quality machines but on something else.
Also, I'll point out this does not fit your narrative at all that Apple is intentionally shooting themselves in the foot to have "an excuse" to kill off the pro line. If I'm reading your latest post correctly, crippling their pro line which they've already done (as you rightly pointed out) is enough to lose the image of the power user.
They are selling a crap-ton of their rMBP 2016's even though they are pretty lame in terms of power. The world has spoken: 1TFLOPS GPUs are good enough. 16GB RAM is good enough. $2,400 for a 256gb HD is not too much to ask. Emoji touchbars are a must-have. Touch screens are stupid, except if it's an iPad, in which case it's the best!
You may be right.
You are certainly right about them having much more data than me!
Still, based on the evidence I have, they appear to be vacating the pro sector and I think it's a mistake.
The Mac Pro was probably the one remaining successful product they had in that sector - hence the need for them to need an excuse to kill it. In no way does it's new form factor make sense. The Cube had already proven that there was no demand for such a product.
Apple don't get everything correct and it's easy for the mighty to fall - especially in technology.
Remember it wasn't that long ago that Nokia were unassailable, or Yahoo for that matter.
I think deciding that a sector of your users are unimportant and effectively dismissing their needs is a mistake.
It may not affect them at all in the short term, but ultimately it will IMO. I believe and if what you're reading here is true, it already is.
Sure we on this forum are only a tiny minority, but from little acorns...
Certainly I'm typing this on a 2009 Mac Pro because of it - how many others are doing the same?
You didn't read, or perhaps didn't understand his entire post. It's not that long. I suggest reading it again.
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Uhh, but what most people are asking for is for apple to continue making updated version of things they ALREADY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST! You speak like we're asking for apple to make something entirely new out of whole cloth.
For example: A desktop computer with modern, upgradeable components that aren't proprietary and is expandable. The Mac Pro fit that bill for more than a decade!
But now for apple to do that would be going against their company philosophy!?!? How much coolaid have you drank, and where did you get so much of it?
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