You will still need a "real" computer besides the iPad Pro, the SP4 can be your only device. This isn't even because of "Pro" apps which don't exist on iOS. Downloading of large files isn't possible on iOS. The driverless Airprint quality (looks like 150 dpi) is a joke and for some jobs simply not good enough. Batchjobs on Exif info and metadata-inspection of other files you get or want to send isn't possible. There are countless other little things which aren't possible on an iPad - "Pro" or not. These might not be everday tasks, but when they are necessary you are stuck with an iPad.
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Surface Pro 4 vs iPad Pro and the future of pro tablets
- Thread starter Wiesenlooser
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Point taken but my experience differs. I have my own business - we provide cloud apps to about 2000 small/medium sized businesses (maybe about 20K users), only about 5% use tablets of any kind. When we visit them, about 95% use Windows and about 99% are on Windows 7 and Google analytics show these numbers too.
The reason tablets don't work in most businesses is because they are not productive when you have to do serious amounts of input. Yes a keyboard helps, but nothing beats a keyboard and a mouse and that's where tablets fail and laptops win. I've seen companies try tablets but they only work in a limited area - maybe for presentation or a demo but very rarely do they ever beat out a laptop. All I have to do is walk through the centre of London and look in at the desks and see that tablets are nowhere to be seen.
A tablet is great for consuming data - youtube, netflix, browsing sites but how many companies actually do that 8 hours a day. I take MRU's point about his work but again, he is a small minority of that type of user.
I see the IPP as a niche product. I do see the SP3/4 as a much better solution for business users - they have the productivity of the mouse/keyboard, the (odd) usefulness of the tablet and the power of full desktop apps. I really think MS have a wining solution here.
Disclaimer - my go to device is an ipad air! .... but that's because I'm do demos all the time. For serious work I take out my trusty XPS13.
The reason tablets don't work in most businesses is because they are not productive when you have to do serious amounts of input. Yes a keyboard helps, but nothing beats a keyboard and a mouse and that's where tablets fail and laptops win. I've seen companies try tablets but they only work in a limited area - maybe for presentation or a demo but very rarely do they ever beat out a laptop. All I have to do is walk through the centre of London and look in at the desks and see that tablets are nowhere to be seen.
A tablet is great for consuming data - youtube, netflix, browsing sites but how many companies actually do that 8 hours a day. I take MRU's point about his work but again, he is a small minority of that type of user.
I see the IPP as a niche product. I do see the SP3/4 as a much better solution for business users - they have the productivity of the mouse/keyboard, the (odd) usefulness of the tablet and the power of full desktop apps. I really think MS have a wining solution here.
Disclaimer - my go to device is an ipad air! .... but that's because I'm do demos all the time. For serious work I take out my trusty XPS13.
Definitely I am. It's just fortunate for me that the iPad Pro works / suits the niche that I fall into. But in general usage I would agree a Surface Pro or even a Macbook Air would suit a far broader audience.
Speaking Generally ...
People should understand that just because they are not in the demographic for which the device is aimed at, it doesn't make it a bad device. It's why we have so many choices.
I'm sure Apple are well aware the iPad pro won't be it's big seller compared the the $399/499 iPad ranges.
Likewise I'm sure Microsoft are aware that the majority of PC's sold are generally in the $350-600 price range and that the Surface even at $899+$149 keyboard, would still be considered niche.
The point however there still is a target demographic for these devices despite them not aimed at the 'mass' majority of either mac, ios or PC userbase.
Absolutely MRU. I think the IPP will sell ok, but nothing like the original ipad. It will suit a certain user type and given the cost, will not appeal to others.
The SP3/4 will sell more (in my opinion) as it appeals to a wider audience. I think MS is making a play for the enterprise user here - I don't believe they see many of their sales coming from the consumer. As an enterprise device is sits very well with their customers and I can see it selling big.
Strange to think of MS as a hardware supplier. Mind you they've been making mice, keyboard and Xbox for years, but we tend to think of them as a software company.
The SP3/4 will sell more (in my opinion) as it appeals to a wider audience. I think MS is making a play for the enterprise user here - I don't believe they see many of their sales coming from the consumer. As an enterprise device is sits very well with their customers and I can see it selling big.
Strange to think of MS as a hardware supplier. Mind you they've been making mice, keyboard and Xbox for years, but we tend to think of them as a software company.
I personally think the SP4 (owning a SP3), is a better choice, other then if the OP loves IOS and plans to stay in it.
I think the hardware is better, the software has everything you need, and the OS is superior, heck, you can load any OS on the SP4. I've seen people post about creating a hackintosh on the Surface Pro and of course you can run Linux. My point is the SP series of computers is about extending your usefulness, not boxing you in with a closed operating system.
Is the SP4 perfect? No, is the iPad Pro perfect? No. My opinion is that the SP4 has more positives then negatives, and conversely the iPad Pro has more negatives then positives.
I think the hardware is better, the software has everything you need, and the OS is superior, heck, you can load any OS on the SP4. I've seen people post about creating a hackintosh on the Surface Pro and of course you can run Linux. My point is the SP series of computers is about extending your usefulness, not boxing you in with a closed operating system.
Is the SP4 perfect? No, is the iPad Pro perfect? No. My opinion is that the SP4 has more positives then negatives, and conversely the iPad Pro has more negatives then positives.
I had a Surface Pro and a Surface Pro 2 and they were brilliant as ultra-portable laptop type machines. However, they couldn't hold a candle to the iPad when in tablet mode.
I see a similar demarcation with the SP4 and iPad Pro - if you want to use it mainly as a laptop replacement then i think the SP4 will be the better choice. However, if you want to use it mainly as a tablet then the iPad Pro is probably the better choice.
I don't see myself as the target market at all for the iPad pro (which I see very firmly aimed at creative professionals) - I'm a professional developer and the iPad Pro (or any tablet) doesn't really offer me a compelling reason to buy it over, say, a 12" MacBook which would be a far better ultra-portable companion device for my needs.
By contrast, a friend of my daughter is an art student and she is incredibly excited by the iPad Pro (she is in the target market IMO)
I'd say if you don't "get" the iPad pro you're probably in the same position as me and not the target market
I see a similar demarcation with the SP4 and iPad Pro - if you want to use it mainly as a laptop replacement then i think the SP4 will be the better choice. However, if you want to use it mainly as a tablet then the iPad Pro is probably the better choice.
I don't see myself as the target market at all for the iPad pro (which I see very firmly aimed at creative professionals) - I'm a professional developer and the iPad Pro (or any tablet) doesn't really offer me a compelling reason to buy it over, say, a 12" MacBook which would be a far better ultra-portable companion device for my needs.
By contrast, a friend of my daughter is an art student and she is incredibly excited by the iPad Pro (she is in the target market IMO)
I'd say if you don't "get" the iPad pro you're probably in the same position as me and not the target market
So much double standards in this it's hilarious you go and say gimmicky not optimized for neither but say this
iOS is touchscreen, and the iPad Pro just uses that with the addition of a pencil/stylus for drawing and stuff. It's a niche product for graphic designers, but very good at what it does.
Yep. Agree with everything you saidI had a Surface Pro and a Surface Pro 2 and they were brilliant as ultra-portable laptop type machines. However, they couldn't hold a candle to the iPad when in tablet mode.
I see a similar demarcation with the SP4 and iPad Pro - if you want to use it mainly as a laptop replacement then i think the SP4 will be the better choice. However, if you want to use it mainly as a tablet then the iPad Pro is probably the better choice.
I don't see myself as the target market at all for the iPad pro (which I see very firmly aimed at creative professionals) - I'm a professional developer and the iPad Pro (or any tablet) doesn't really offer me a compelling reason to buy it over, say, a 12" MacBook which would be a far better ultra-portable companion device for my needs.
By contrast, a friend of my daughter is an art student and she is incredibly excited by the iPad Pro (she is in the target market IMO)
I'd say if you don't "get" the iPad pro you're probably in the same position as me and not the target market
it's all just demographics
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My feelings exactly. I was dead set on getting the IPP (iPad Pro) after the keynote. I mean it was going to be a day 1 preorder for me. Then I started looking at what I would use it for. I won't use the pro tools the pencil is designed for. I can't hook it to any of my monitors. I can't plug any of my external hard drives to it. It only has one port.
For me any my uses those are very limiting choices. The SP4 just offers more options.
I had a Surface Pro and a Surface Pro 2 and they were brilliant as ultra-portable laptop type machines. However, they couldn't hold a candle to the iPad when in tablet mode.
I see a similar demarcation with the SP4 and iPad Pro - if you want to use it mainly as a laptop replacement then i think the SP4 will be the better choice. However, if you want to use it mainly as a tablet then the iPad Pro is probably the better choice.
I don't see myself as the target market at all for the iPad pro (which I see very firmly aimed at creative professionals) - I'm a professional developer and the iPad Pro (or any tablet) doesn't really offer me a compelling reason to buy it over, say, a 12" MacBook which would be a far better ultra-portable companion device for my needs.
By contrast, a friend of my daughter is an art student and she is incredibly excited by the iPad Pro (she is in the target market IMO)
I'd say if you don't "get" the iPad pro you're probably in the same position as me and not the target market
What in particular made the surface so far beneath an iPad in terms of tablet functionality? Apps? I know that's a big reason, but on 2nd glance there really aren't that many apps which are not represented on windows. I don't think I've ever gotten an answer that really made sense to me why the iPad is a better tablet. No disrespect intended, I'm not saying I never got a correct answer, just never one that made sense to me and that's endemic to how I use a tablet versus how others use theirs. There is no right answer of course. Still, I like to delve into the topic because it's interesting.
I have the SP3, iPad Air, Macbook Air amongst others. I use the SP3 for work and the MBA for home. I haven't used the iPad Air much since getting the SP3, but I will say the SP3 is a very poor tablet. In tablet mode, the performance isn't great. Lack of apps is obviously an issue, but the performance of apps is noticable, perhaps because Windows 10 isn't optimised at a tablet only OS so it probably comes with a lot of overhead.
Overall, despite how good the SP3 is from a hardware perspective, I'm considering the switch back to OSX permanently because Windows 10 is just too unstable for my likings. It's a half finished product. I constantly have lag on it I don't experience on my similar spec MBA running El Capitano, the search is dismal which I use a lot, it's a memory hog with virtually everything.
I love the MS hardware though. The SP3 was a great piece of hardware and there wasn't much I could complain about on that. It's just the running Windows part I don't like
Overall, despite how good the SP3 is from a hardware perspective, I'm considering the switch back to OSX permanently because Windows 10 is just too unstable for my likings. It's a half finished product. I constantly have lag on it I don't experience on my similar spec MBA running El Capitano, the search is dismal which I use a lot, it's a memory hog with virtually everything.
I love the MS hardware though. The SP3 was a great piece of hardware and there wasn't much I could complain about on that. It's just the running Windows part I don't like
Maybe try a reinstall, or a fresh install, it sounds like maybe you have a virus or maybe a hardware issue. As I mentioned a couple of posts up I throw an immense amount of stuff at my SP3 and have never seen it slow down, especially with apps. Which apps are slowing down? Which apps are missing on windows?
Been there, done that, got the post card. Installed Windows 10 as an upgrade. After having it slow down on me, and having search not work I reinstalled a fresh copy of Windows 10. Search still needed to be reindexed to work. It was using 100% of processor to search settings. Office 2016 is less stable than a third world economy, outlook crashes at least 5 times a day. Now that windows 10 search is working, it's still dismal compared to spotlight so I ended up having to get X1 because it was nearly impossible to find anything if you have a lot of documents.
On the app store front, nearly everything is missing. The virgin in flight app is missing. You have to use explorer with silverlight (which is slower than cancer) and if you leave the app playing, the machine goes into screensaver which then removes the full screen app option so you have to watch movies with a windows explorer border. No apps for sports which are outside of the US (not everyone lives in the US), so basics like a rugby world cup app doesn't exist on the Windows store. Edge has caught up a bit and improved usability for tablet browsing but still lacks basic plugins so you have to use explorer which is terrible in tablet use. Australian banking apps are missing from the Windows store, whatsapp, and a whole heap of others. Now maybe these apps will come in time, but the challenge with products like the surface is that they are still seen as laptops so the app makers don't feel the need to make many tablet apps for them.
On the app store front, nearly everything is missing. The virgin in flight app is missing. You have to use explorer with silverlight (which is slower than cancer) and if you leave the app playing, the machine goes into screensaver which then removes the full screen app option so you have to watch movies with a windows explorer border. No apps for sports which are outside of the US (not everyone lives in the US), so basics like a rugby world cup app doesn't exist on the Windows store. Edge has caught up a bit and improved usability for tablet browsing but still lacks basic plugins so you have to use explorer which is terrible in tablet use. Australian banking apps are missing from the Windows store, whatsapp, and a whole heap of others. Now maybe these apps will come in time, but the challenge with products like the surface is that they are still seen as laptops so the app makers don't feel the need to make many tablet apps for them.
I don't want to buy more stuff. I want my stuff to do more. While Apple is probably planning the Apple necklace, Microsoft will be working out how I can do CAD on High res displays, from my phone.
I think the relevant question here is - what if you didn't need or don't want a third, or fifth, device?
I think the relevant question here is - what if you didn't need or don't want a third, or fifth, device?
- Mobile Apps - All those mobile apps are still useful, but smartphones have gotten good enough that there's not much of a reason for me to reach for a tablet, when I want to use them.
- Work Apps - Beyond consumption, many of us who pay our mortgages with these devices need to occasionally create content. Yes, we can do a few cartwheels and sprinkle magic dust, but using the apps we earn our keep on with mobile devices is awkward. There are formatting issues, some apps aren't there, and power users still don;t have the capabilities we want. Yes, I can get my Virgin app, which slightly simplifies the experience of using a browser, but the PowerPoint or Excel experience is lacking. and yes, as boring and backwards as those apps may seem, they pay the bills for a lot of people.
- Phones are the mobile Device - Again, phones are good enough. When I need a true mobile device, my phone is always there. For consumption, there's not a lot my phone can do. This is why there's an odd trend of many people's tablets starting to gather dust. I'm not saying it;s your tablet, but it is becoming "a thing".
- Tablets running Mobile OS's (2016) - With phones being so powerful, and tablet OS's awkwardly running many true content creation apps, the role of tablets running mobile OS's is limited. Yes, tablet sales are up, but the need for premium tablets with mobile OS's has declined. OK, I just bought two $99 Kindle Fires with Amazon's Freetime and damage-proof cases, but these were $99 toys. When I want a pure mobile tablet experience, in late 2015, I reach in my pocket.
- Hybrid Devices - These are now good enough tablets. I now reach for my SP3, when I want a tablet, though I also have an iPad. The mobile apps I use it for are there: Netflix, Hulu, etc. It's got great browsers available, which is much of what I use anyhow. But the kick is, when I get an important work email, I can flip the keyboard and immediately switch to content creation mode. Sitting on my couch with my kids watching Calliou, Outlook chirps, and I switch into editing a Powerpoint in a couple seconds. And I know that there won't be formatting issues. I can use VPS software, terminals, etc.
- I'm a hypocrite - Having said all that, needing to refresh this month, I ordered a Macbook Pro 15. I still have my SBP3, which I probably use 30% of the time, but I'm just not ready to switch my primary work desktop to Win 10, just yet. A big part of this is me switching from an iMac 27 to a MacBook Pro, and I just didn't want to give up two cores. But I like where Microsoft is going. But I will say that I anticipate this refresh cycle to be shorter than my usual 2.5 years (kudos to Apple - I always buy refurbs and sell them for ~60% of what I paid for them, in 2.5yrs). If Apple doesn't have a true hybrid device, or at least strong rumors of such, I'll switch in about a year. I didn't switch yet because my large family has lots of Apple stuff, and I need some time to sort out the ecosystem. Also, work is too crazy right now for me to lose steps in switching. But I'll be spending the next year or so diving into my SP3, and if Apple doesn't move towards hybrid devices, I'm going.
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I think Apple may be forced down this path soon due to the success of the SP3 and SP4. I don't think the iPad Pro will be that successful largely because there isn't a compelling reason to buy it other than the stylus and if you need something more powerful than an ipad, chances are you need a full laptop (or a hybrid).
I'm hoping Apple follow suit. I think they have the experience with usability to make it work. I'd be happy if I could just get a MBP or MBA that I could remove the screen and have it go into IOS mode (with stylus obviously). The only thing they would need to add is a file system navigation tool for the iPad which would be pretty easy to do.
I'm hoping Apple follow suit. I think they have the experience with usability to make it work. I'd be happy if I could just get a MBP or MBA that I could remove the screen and have it go into IOS mode (with stylus obviously). The only thing they would need to add is a file system navigation tool for the iPad which would be pretty easy to do.
Apart from the apps it was the weight and form factor (widescreen in portrait mode is a horrible experience). The touch screen keyboard felt clunky too.
Also, Windows 8 was not fully optimised for tablet use (and Windows 10 isn't either) and you still got regularly dropped into a desktop style interface.
But the iPad Pro is Apple's Answer to the Surface Pro. Given the price point and how it only runs iOS, I also question whether it will be successful. Perhaps initially they will see a bump in sales but it will flat line just like the other iPad sales figures.
I don't see apple putting OS X on a tablet, it goes against their grain and the idea that it will impact their laptop sales. They'll keep working with the iPad Pro as it is, perhaps making it thinner and faster but it won't run OS X.
They also said people didn't want a bigger iPhone and we know what happened with that.
Oh, you know I've given you specifics many times. They must just not apply to you.
For me, I still travel with my iPad even though I have a Surface Pro for several reasons. Primary is the battery life. I can take an all-week business trip to Europe, use the iPad extensively on the plane, in the lounges, or during in-between times waiting at hotels, etc. like I would pick up a book. I load it up with all of my magazine subscriptions so that I have plenty to read even when I don't have Internet access, and it will last me the entire trip without me needing to charge it or to even have to think about it. The Surface won't last me the flight over there, even using it in that mode, nor is it nearly as comfortable to use in those situations. It still feels like using a computer.
At home I use the iPad extensively as my music control system, streaming to wirelessly connected speakers. It can do this reliably and uses virtually no battery life to do so. The Surface can't do this on battery because as soon as the screen shuts off, after just a few minutes, the music stops. There are only a handful of apps, none of them ones I want to use, that can continue to stream in the background. I do the same with the iPad and streaming video. I have an iMac that acts as the home server where content gets downloaded, and using Air Video the iPad makes a fantastic remote to stream any video type to my tv flawlessly. I've tried the wireless mirroring on Windows and it is clunky and often unreliable.
In general our iPad just sits on the kitchen counter as an appliance always ready for someone to pick it up for any of the above activities, to video chat, to look something up, to show someone a picture from our albums, to reference a recipe. It's rarely on the charger, and it's always ready to use. I don't get the same reliability from my Surface - and many of the programs that are perfectly fine to use when you have the keyboard attached are suddenly a lot less useful when you have dough-covered hands, and need to try and hit that tiny touch target.
This is why I'm ok with iOS and the app ecosystem - it means that battery life and stability are pretty much guaranteed - and that I am probably going to get an excellent touch UI at the same time. With Windows I may have the programs at my disposal to do most any of the same things - but there is no guarantee of battery life nor of a good UI. I'm somewhat of the opinion that Microsoft is going to have to start limiting what programs and processes can do in the background even on the desktop side if they are ever going to get battery life under control. Apple, with iOS, doesn't have this worry, because it's baked in as a fundamental of the operating system.
I don't think it is ... That's just an assumption people are naturally making but I don't think Apple see's this as a surface rival at all, if anything they would put the 12" MacBook more towards that.
Really I think the iPad Pro is Apple's answer to people wanting a bigger iPad with emphasis on drawing / editing.
I personally do not want desktop OSX on a tablet. I have been in the privileged position of trying a mod book pro for a couple of weeks previously and whilst I was initially enamoured it soon turned out to be a more frustrating experience. Likewise owning a Surface Pro 2 for a year - has also emphasised to me that a desktop OS / Tablet hybrid whilst ideal in principal is often less than the sum of its parts in whole.
It is, but if it wasn't for the Surface Pro and iPad sales sinking, Apple would never have created the iPad Pro.
To me the response is similar to that of the iPhone plus. Apple saw how popular the Note was and not wanting to see more customers going for that larger form factor they opted for one themselves.
The similarities are striking, perhaps its a coincidence but rolling out a stylus, and typecover make it look exactly like a Surface Pro response.
Yep, that's how Apple operates now. They see what's hot and then jump on it in a year or two. Apple Watch, iPhone 6 Plus and the iPad Pro are all signs of that. At the same time i remember reading about patents from Apple and a stylus being involved. That was years ago, even before the Surface Pro I think.