Surface Pro 4 vs iPad Pro and the future of pro tablets

[I7guy]

Apple = being bold, betting on the future

Microsoft = hanging on the legacy, seriously, the SP/SB look like a eugenics experiment gone wrong, so much problems and remedies that shouldn't be there in the first place. It's not the computer of the future, with fans and everything and CPUs and GPUs that can eat the battery in questions of seconds (and make a furnace inside), and the pen that comes in bundled, yes, because it's basically required for operation with the most apps, which aren't touch first.

I can take my entire desktop and run it on the sp4; all the crazy things I do in the background and my wife likes the tablet mode.

Limited on my iPad, but there are times I like that.

 

[jamezr]

Apple = being bold, betting on the future

Microsoft = hanging on the legacy, seriously, the SP/SB look like a eugenics experiment gone wrong, so much problems and remedies that shouldn't be there in the first place. It's not the computer of the future, with fans and everything and CPUs and GPUs that can eat the battery in questions of seconds (and make a furnace inside), and the pen that comes in bundled, yes, because it's basically required for operation with the most apps, which aren't touch first.

The IPP is not the future.......it is an oversized heavy tablet with a "Pro" moniker. But that label does not make it a pro device at all. Quite the contrary. No file system and and no "pro" apps unless you draw with an overpriced pencil.
No builtin way to keep the device upright unless you buy a keyboard that is half baked at best.
The IPP and keyboard was a copy from the Surface Pro line.
The SP runs a desktop OS with all the advantages. The IPP runs a very restrictive mobile OS that is not suited a robust work environment. The IPP comes with one port so there is no expandability and versatility.

 

[MRU]

What are the shipping times right now if you were to just order an iPad Pro, sans Pencil?

Only 5 days .... The problem really is without the pencil I don't see the point in getting the iPad pro. It's a dichotomy

 

[MRU]

unless you draw with an overpriced pencil.

Actually the pencil based on its technology is not really overpriced. I have paid more for extra stylus for my pro wacom tablets / cintiq stuff. (heck ordering extra wacom accessories such as set of nibs is ridiculous over priced for shards of plastic to be honest)

No, the biggest issue of the pencil for artists is simply availability or lack of.

 

[spinedoc77]

That's the whole problem. Windows run programs built years ago. Programs that were designed for a desktop environment, not a tablet one. And I don't see any effort being spent to optimise those apps for mobile.



Because that's what Windows 10 is - an attempt by Microsoft to have a presence in mobile by building on its dominant product, Windows (itself a desktop OS). Sure, I can connect a keyboard and a mouse to the SP when I want to get work done, but I have essentially replicated a laptop both in form and essence.

Take those away and what are you left with? A tablet form factor with apps that aren't really optimised for touchscreen usage, which means the user experience is going to be a subpar one. Something Apple solved on day 1 by positioning the iPad solely as a touch-centric device, therefore ensuring that all apps created for the iPad would be optimised for touch and direct input.



The problem here is that the sheer power of Windows is not really giving many people more of what they want, but rather, more problems that they have to contend with. Complexity is not a selling point here; simplicity is.

I feel that iOS has many strengths going for it. It has better security and remains easier to use than Windows and OSX. Likewise, I believe that iOS will continue to get more powerful and fully-featured with subsequent iOS updates, all without compromising the fundamentals that make it uniquely iOS. It's simplicity and ease of use means that users no longer have to contend with all the traditional shortcomings of Windows, and this is a problem that will continue to plague Windows for as long as Microsoft continues to desperately cling to their desktop monopoly and refuse to give Windows the complete overhaul it so needs.

Just look at what Windows is replacing your desktop with. Another PC. Running the same operating system underneath. This isn't Microsoft replacing a horse with a car. This is them strapping rocket skates onto a horse and praying that it can compete with a car somehow.

And the iPad will be that car.



Windows 8 / 10 honestly strikes me as being a very inelegant concept. It's basically 2 different UIs bolted together, and I refuse to accept that such an abomination is the way moving forward.

The question is - what will be replacing the SP once that transition is over?

Microsoft has no answer to that - they are betting everything on the Surface Pro hybrid concept.

The more I look at Apple, I more I think I understand what they are doing. It's the whole "skating to where the puck will be, not where the puck is" strategem all over again. Apple is betting that while the Surface Pro might be seen as the "now", the iPad will ultimately be the "future", and Apple is perfectly content to have their Macs hold the fort and keep the hybrid concept at bay while they manoeuvre the iPad into the desired position.

Of course, the future isn't set in stone, and all these still boil down to how well Apple executes their roadmap. But I do see two things going for Apple. 1) That Apple can afford to wait, and 2) Microsoft has a long-standing history of spectacularly screwing up on the implementation side of their products big time.

Why would I want to take windows 10 away from my surface pro? It's the most powerful feature by far, and the reason I'd never buy an ipad again. Having the ability to run hundreds of thousands of legacy programs is incredibly powerful. Add to that the many programs which have been specifically tailored to a touch environment, a couple of examples are photoshop and Microsoft Office which are much more feature rich than on their mobile counterparts. No it's not primarily a laptop, it makes an incredible tablet and I continue to highly disagree. Apple didn't solve anything except make a very palatable consumption device.

I understand your simplicity versus complexity argument, and I don't necessarily disagree. But at the same time we need to stop dumbing ourselves down, the ipad is a device which encourages being dumb. We are smarter than that. Microsoft does need to continue to simplify Windows, no argument there, but with win 10 they have made huge strides in simplifying the OS.

I've also been hearing that iOS will get more powerful since the day it was released, and it really hasn't. Even with the release of the ipads I haven't seen a professional level app which has all the features of it's counterpart on the PC or mac. Just the inane lack of mouse support hamstrings the ipad right out of the gate, as does lack of a file system. I predict the same with the ipad pro, we won't see any apps which have the same feature set of their pc/mac counterparts. In the end the ipad is just a big iPhone, and the ipad pro will also just be a big iPhone, I don't say that in a bad way, it's just the truth. Apple is the one strapping rockets to a horse as the ipad concept is antiquated.

Windows 10 is quite elegant, coming closer than ANYONE in bridging mobile and desktop. What's elegant about iOS? rows and columns of undifferentiated app icons? No, give me something powerful, something that can handle EVERY single one of my computing needs in a single package. What will replace the SP? Sure Microsoft has answered that if you were paying attention. Windows phones will replace the SP with continuum. Of course we still need large tablet screens, but I'm excited to see what foldable screens look like.

As for Apple's strategy, it's apparent they want you to purchase 2 devices instead of one. You don't think APple couldn't make OSx work well with touchscreens? Of course they could. But they prefer to market separate devices and let consumers believe they need both.

 

[spinedoc77]

I'd expect there to be issues with first gen, but when they have issues with the SP3 on Windows 10 and they have had access to the hardware for over a year, I'm a little less accepting of poor quality control. That said, I've never seen anything near the level of issues they had on the Surface Book on any new Apple product launch. Anandtech refused to recommend it as a result which is scathing in itself.

The SB hasn't had more issues than the IPP IMO, I listed out 4 big issues in my previous post and there are more. Also the SP3 is VERY solid. The SP4 was a bit rocky out of the gate, but most of the issues have been resolved with Threshold, although not all. You have a valid point though and I'm not denying it, Microsoft has a QC issue in relation to software and drivers they need to address.

 

[maflynn]

The SB hasn't had more issues than the IPP IMO

I think you can categorize those issues, as Gen 1 problems. MS has steadily improved the Surface Pro these past 4 iterations to the point its a great product.

The SB can be a nice product too, albeit expensive, but right now there's too many teething problems.

 

[TechZeke]

The SB hasn't had more issues than the IPP IMO.....

Doubt that. A guy in my structural engineering class ended up returning his SB after all the issues he had. It literally BSOD'd right in the middle of class while he was taking notes and complained constantly about the bugs.

 

[sracer]

I think you can categorize those issues, as Gen 1 problems. MS has steadily improved the Surface Pro these past 4 iterations to the point its a great product.

The SB can be a nice product too, albeit expensive, but right now there's too many teething problems.

Yep. I can't see how anyone who has been interacting with more than one SB owner could say that there aren't many teething problems.

Every generation of Surface Pro device has their initial issues as well, but they seem to be fewer, less severe, and resolved more quickly with each generation. Certainly to the point where one can reasonably get a trouble-free one within 1-2 months after release.

 

[apolloa]

To use an iPad Pro you really need to be clear in what you will use it for. For instance it cannot in anyway replace a laptop for things like You Tube browsing because you can't have multiple You Tube tabs open in the browser as it doesn't support it, so far as I know anyway. Whereas a laptop will do that easily and so will the Surface range as it's full blown Windows.

Apple has to seriously make the iPad Pro different and not just with a pencil stylus add on and bigger screen.
The only place for Pro tablets is to replace laptops I think, so they need to offer the same functionality.

 

[mi7chy]

Only remember having WIFI waking from sleep issue on the SP3 which was eventually fixed. SP4 works 100% for me plugged in to power but shows some funkiness when running on battery so I'm guessing related to CPU power state and possibly drivers so software fixable. SP is a more complex product so more features and lines of code can result in more bugs but MS has been good at fixing those. iPP is pretty much a blown up iPod so it wouldn't be fair to compare the two like it wouldn't be fair to compare the challenges of building a skyscraper to a dog house and the iPP seems to be suffering from both software and hardware issues with the latter being more challenging to fix.

 

[apolloa]

I would ask, would anyone buy the HP 608 Pro 8" tablet? It's not as powerful as the Surface 3 as it runs the x5 Atom processor which is the step down from the x7 atom in the Surface 3, and it costs more than the Surface 3, yet it offers an optional stylus and keyboard cover.

It's an intriguing device, carries the Pro moniker with a Pro price tag, and runs full Windows:

http://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/laptops/product-detail.html?oid=7484083#!tab=models

Would anyone consider a high priced Atom powered Windows device a Pro device? One thing to note though is that the iPad Mini 4 with 128GB RAM and LTE is JUST cheaper, by £17, then the LTE 128GB 4GB RAM HP 608.

 

[I7guy]

Only remember having WIFI waking from sleep issue on the SP3 which was eventually fixed. SP4 works 100% for me plugged in to power but shows some funkiness when running on battery so I'm guessing related to CPU power state and possibly drivers so software fixable. SP is a more complex product so more features and lines of code can result in more bugs but MS has been good at fixing those. iPP is pretty much a blown up iPod so it wouldn't be fair to compare the two like it wouldn't be fair to compare the challenges of building a skyscraper to a dog house and the iPP seems to be suffering from both software and hardware issues with the latter being more challenging to fix.

The sp4 has more and worse issues than the ipp. Having said that I like my sp4, a nicer form factor than my new laptop but does almost the same thing. The ipp Is a bigger factors than an iPad. Two devices, two use cases.

 

[spinedoc77]

I would ask, would anyone buy the HP 608 Pro 8" tablet? It's not as powerful as the Surface 3 as it runs the x5 Atom processor which is the step down from the x7 atom in the Surface 3, and it costs more than the Surface 3, yet it offers an optional stylus and keyboard cover.

It's an intriguing device, carries the Pro moniker with a Pro price tag, and runs full Windows:

http://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/laptops/product-detail.html?oid=7484083#!tab=models

Would anyone consider a high priced Atom powered Windows device a Pro device? One thing to note though is that the iPad Mini 4 with 128GB RAM and LTE is JUST cheaper, by £17, then the LTE 128GB 4GB RAM HP 608.

Yeah I've got that one saved in my Amazon wishlist, but haven't pulled the trigger. It's got awesome screen resolution, nice build and other nice stuff. I wish the Wacom was EMR so I could use a Samsung pen with it though. I would downgrade to Atom for a 8" mainly to get more battery life out of it, having more of a processor would only be useful if you were going to dock it a lot.

 

[Billy95Tech]

Yeah I've got that one saved in my Amazon wishlist, but haven't pulled the trigger. It's got awesome screen resolution, nice build and other nice stuff. I wish the Wacom was EMR so I could use a Samsung pen with it though. I would downgrade to Atom for a 8" mainly to get more battery life out of it, having more of a processor would only be useful if you were going to dock it a lot.

Hey Spinedoc77 would you mind helping me out on a problem that i am having on my Windows 8 tablet as you have plenty of experience with Windows tablets??? Thanks!!
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/windows-8-tablet-factory-reset-hard-reset-problem-help.1941632/


Sorry to hijack the thread OP!!

 

[apolloa]

Yeah I've got that one saved in my Amazon wishlist, but haven't pulled the trigger. It's got awesome screen resolution, nice build and other nice stuff. I wish the Wacom was EMR so I could use a Samsung pen with it though. I would downgrade to Atom for a 8" mainly to get more battery life out of it, having more of a processor would only be useful if you were going to dock it a lot.

Would you consider it a 'Pro' tablet though?

 

[Zirel]

I can take my entire desktop and run it on the sp4; all the crazy things I do in the background and my wife likes the tablet mode.

Limited on my iPad, but there are times I like that.

And why do you need those apps?

Legacy!

The IPP is not the future.......it is an oversized heavy tablet with a "Pro" moniker. But that label does not make it a pro device at all. Quite the contrary. No file system and and no "pro" apps unless you draw with an overpriced pencil.
No builtin way to keep the device upright unless you buy a keyboard that is half baked at best.
The IPP and keyboard was a copy from the Surface Pro line.
The SP runs a desktop OS with all the advantages. The IPP runs a very restrictive mobile OS that is not suited a robust work environment. The IPP comes with one port so there is no expandability and versatility.

Say what you will, the iPad Pro is the future of computing.

Yes, no old-style filesystem like in the 60's, that's what's needed for ubicomp, you have your documents and that's it...

You can enumerate the differences all day, but the future is in the iPad, not a stop-gap solution like the SP.

 

[jamezr]

And why do you need those apps?

Legacy!



Say what you will, the iPad Pro is the future of computing.

Yes, no old-style filesystem like in the 60's, that's what's needed for ubicomp, you have your documents and that's it...

You can enumerate the differences all day, but the future is in the iPad, not a stop-gap solution like the SP.

You do know that other Apple products use a file system right? Like the iMac, MBP, Mac Pro, MBA and so on......
that they are Unix based operating systems with a file system.
So are you saying that the iPad Pro will replace those products?

 

[apolloa]

Say what you will, the iPad Pro is the future of computing.

Yes, no old-style filesystem like in the 60's, that's what's needed for ubicomp, you have your documents and that's it...

You can enumerate the differences all day, but the future is in the iPad, not a stop-gap solution like the SP.

So the future of computing is to make devices that are LESS powerful and adaptable and advanced as today's computers, both Mac and Windows?

 

[spinedoc77]

Would you consider it a 'Pro' tablet though?

No I personally would not consider it "pro", but it's not like there is a strict definition of what pro is and that's more of my opinion.

 

[tbayrgs]

Only 5 days .... The problem really is without the pencil I don't see the point in getting the iPad pro. It's a dichotomy

Can't you call Apple directly to cancel the iPad Pro portion of your first order? I recall calling them and customer service was able to remove just a part of an order I placed last May--a watch band I decided I didn't want. That way I didn't have to cancel the entire order.

I understand you want the Pencil but at least you'll have some play time on the iPP beforehand.

 

[spinedoc77]

And why do you need those apps?

Legacy!



Say what you will, the iPad Pro is the future of computing.

Yes, no old-style filesystem like in the 60's, that's what's needed for ubicomp, you have your documents and that's it...

You can enumerate the differences all day, but the future is in the iPad, not a stop-gap solution like the SP.

Why do you need those apps? Assuming you are referring to legacy programs, look around you. Windows and Macs, and even other OS' like Linux are all using programs to run the world.

As for the "old-style filesystem like in the 60s", sure let's get rid of the filesystem in windows, OSx, Android, Chrome, Linux, etc etc. Who needs a filesystem?

 

[apolloa]

No I personally would not consider it "pro", but it's not like there is a strict definition of what pro is and that's more of my opinion.

I think you should consider it a 'Pro' tablet though, because it runs full Windows and costs only a tiny bit more than the equivalent iPad Mini.
It's a funky small device I think and is an example of what an 8" Surface could have been like, it's a shame Microsoft stopped development of their 8" device.

 

[aneftp]

The SB hasn't had more issues than the IPP IMO, I listed out 4 big issues in my previous post and there are more. Also the SP3 is VERY solid. The SP4 was a bit rocky out of the gate, but most of the issues have been resolved with Threshold, although not all. You have a valid point though and I'm not denying it, Microsoft has a QC issue in relation to software and drivers they need to address.

I just spent 10 plus hours this weekend dealing with this huge issue with surface pro 4.

The Windows start screen disappear and things stopped working. Tried to reformat that was a disaster. Took all weekend to figure it out myself. And I am a techie. A normal person wouldn't put up having a reformat fail in the middle. Going to have to buy a jump drive and redownloading and transferring files to jump drive and restoring.

Apple has a much easier process if there is a problem. All you need is an Internet connection to resorts from Mac App Store.

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...g/b2e512b7-c1af-4562-ad99-1d8aa584b6b2?auth=1

 

[spinedoc77]

I think you should consider it a 'Pro' tablet though, because it runs full Windows and costs only a tiny bit more than the equivalent iPad Mini.
It's a funky small device I think and is an example of what an 8" Surface could have been like, it's a shame Microsoft stopped development of their 8" device.

Oh against the ipad anything is pro, even an Android tablet is pro. But in it's own windows family I wouldn't call it pro. Yeah a surface mini would have been awesome.