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Blaze4G

macrumors 65816
Oct 31, 2015
1,300
1,177
Hierarchies remain because its a navigation representation of information that people are used to, nothing more. Its not an idea or best practice method of navigating any form of data anymore. If you have large sets of data, navigational structures are annoying. Lets see you try create a navigation structure when you have 1,000,000 clients to deal with, and even applying facets would make it cumbersome and slow. If you use a ECM solution like SharePoint, EMC, Filenet, OT etc it would be easier to put a search form over it and do structured search rather than file system navigation.

These days, faceted browsing is used as a means to combine metadata and navigation, but I would say that having a file structure per say isn't mandatory. Lets compare MS (because this post is comparing the SP4) and take their navigation client (onedrive for business) vs SharePoint. Most people get pointed to a Sharepoint site but don't even know where in the site sits in the larger hierarchy so the only thing they are navigating is project folders.

The point above however is that you don't need to navigate a file structure to have access to a navigation structure in a document management solution. The two have no dependency.

Your point is for a large business which makes sense. However our point...or well my point is for an individual. Individuals don't need to navigate a structure that contains 1,000,000 clients. Most users will have a relatively small set of data which would be easy to navigate.

No matter how you think of it, one thing holds true. Everyday users far outnumber large business users. The market caters for the majority.
 
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jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
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Hierarchies remain because its a navigation representation of information that people are used to, nothing more. Its not an idea or best practice method of navigating any form of data anymore. If you have large sets of data, navigational structures are annoying. Lets see you try create a navigation structure when you have 1,000,000 clients to deal with, and even applying facets would make it cumbersome and slow. If you use a ECM solution like SharePoint, EMC, Filenet, OT etc it would be easier to put a search form over it and do structured search rather than file system navigation.

These days, faceted browsing is used as a means to combine metadata and navigation, but I would say that having a file structure per say isn't mandatory. Lets compare MS (because this post is comparing the SP4) and take their navigation client (onedrive for business) vs SharePoint. Most people get pointed to a Sharepoint site but don't even know where in the site sits in the larger hierarchy so the only thing they are navigating is project folders.

The point above however is that you don't need to navigate a file structure to have access to a navigation structure in a document management solution. The two have no dependency.
Most of what you said above is on target. Then there is DFS (Distributed File System) where a data mount could be anywhere but appear in a viable easy to find and browse format. But it all comes back to file structures that will never go away. How it gets presented to the end user might change but the underlying file structure is here to stay.
 
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Renzatic

Suspended
x2.

We should get rid of cars because they are old...so early 1900s. People don't know how to drive, it's too complicated for them, and regularly people forget to use indicators...:D Although this was meant to be a joke, Google may actually eliminate people from driving sometime in the future lol.

Eh. I don't think we'll ever get rid of driving altogether. That need to grab the wheel, hit the gas, and cut people off on the interstate is too strong an urge to deny. :p

As for the "average person doesn't care about X" arguments, I've been here for over 4 years now, and it's been used to justify time and again why Apple didn't offer a product that, hey, guess what, they now offer, and people love. I've seen it used for why Apple doesn't have a 7 inch tablet. Why Apple never made a phone larger than 3.5 inches. Why Apple would never make a stylus. Why Apple would never release a 12 inch tablet.

People just don't care about any of these things. Those who do belong to a small percentage that Apple doesn't want or need to cater to. And I'm sure most of the people who have said as much are now tweeting about buying an iPad Pro and Pencil on their iPhone 6S+.

I don't put much stock in the Average Person arguments, because recent history has vindicated me. And they? Oh, they look dumb. :D
 
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Blaze4G

macrumors 65816
Oct 31, 2015
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Eh. I don't think we'll ever get rid of driving altogether. That need to grab the wheel, hit the gas, and cut people off on the interstate is too strong an urge to deny. :p

As for the "average person doesn't care about X" arguments, I've been here for over 4 years now, and it's been used to justify time and again why Apple didn't offer a product that, hey, guess what, they now offer, and people love. I've seen it used for why Apple doesn't have a 7 inch tablet. Why Apple never made a phone larger than 3.5 inches. Why Apple would never make a stylus. Why Apple would never release a 12 inch tablet.

People just don't care about any of these things. Those who do belong to a small percentage that Apple doesn't want or need to cater to. And I'm sure most of the people who have said as much are now tweeting about buying an iPad Pro and Pencil on their iPhone 6S+.

I don't put much stock in the Average Person arguments, because recent history has vindicated me. And they? Oh, they look dumb. :D
LOL!

Oh yes, how could I forget. There is always a reason why Apple does X and not Y. All other companies doing Y is impractical, useless and not "magical" lol. Then when Apple does Y they praise it.

The Pencil - "no latency, so accurate!"
Screen size - "4.7 inches is the perfect size for one handed use"...I thought 3.5 inches was the perfect size?
12 inch tablet - Before "who would want to walk around with a TV!?"....and after? sigh.

I can't wait until next year for the IPP2. I feel they will have some sort of hybrid like windows 10 on SP4 and / or file structure. Then we will hear "the way apple implements it is so much more efficient...it just works".

Thanks for this:
"I don't put much stock in the Average Person arguments, because recent history has vindicated me. And they? Oh, they look dumb. :D"
 

Renzatic

Suspended
LOL!

Oh yes, how could I forget. There is always a reason why Apple does X and not Y. All other companies doing Y is impractical, useless and not "magical" lol. Then when Apple does Y they praise it.

The Pencil - "no latency, so accurate!"
Screen size - "4.7 inches is the perfect size for one handed use"...I thought 3.5 inches was the perfect size?
12 inch tablet - Before "who would want to walk around with a TV!?"....and after? sigh.

I hear crow is quite crunchy. I WOULDN'T KNOW! :D

Good thing I'm so humble, otherwise I'd be an intolerable braggart.

I can't wait until next year for the IPP2. I feel they will have some sort of hybrid like windows 10 on SP4 and / or file structure. Then we will hear "the way apple implements it is so much more efficient...it just works".

I seriously doubt Apple will do an iOS/OSX hybrid a'la Windows 10. My guess would be that the iPP will end up with a souped up version of iOS specific for it, complete with a file browser, a bit more lower level flexibility, and a trackpad on the keyboard for apps that can benefit from having one available.

But it'll still be iOS, looking and functioning much like iOS does now. Apple doesn't need to take the same route MS is with Win10. They already have a popular touch based OS with a ton of developer support, so they don't need to come at the problem from the top down. They merely need to expand upon what they have in order to gain parity between the software and hardware.
 

Blaze4G

macrumors 65816
Oct 31, 2015
1,300
1,177
I hear crow is quite crunchy. I WOULDN'T KNOW! :D

Good thing I'm so humble, otherwise I'd be an intolerable braggart.



I seriously doubt Apple will do an iOS/OSX hybrid a'la Windows 10. My guess would be that the iPP will end up with a souped up version of iOS specific for it, complete with a file browser, a bit more lower level flexibility, and a trackpad on the keyboard for apps that can benefit from having one available.

But it'll still be iOS, looking and functioning much like iOS does now. Apple doesn't need to take the same route MS is with Win10. They already have a popular touch based OS with a ton of developer support, so they don't need to come at the problem from the top down. They merely need to expand upon what they have in order to gain parity between the software and hardware.

Actually that is exactly what I meant. It just didn't come across right. When I said Hybrid, I think they will enhance the capabilities of iOS just for the IPP. Of course restricting it from being ported to an iPad. File browser as you mentioned, as well as USB C to allow peripheral devices, Pencil 2.0 with eraser (of course they will come up with some fancy name for this eraser).
 

kasakka

macrumors 68020
Oct 25, 2008
2,389
1,083
I seriously doubt Apple will do an iOS/OSX hybrid a'la Windows 10. My guess would be that the iPP will end up with a souped up version of iOS specific for it, complete with a file browser, a bit more lower level flexibility, and a trackpad on the keyboard for apps that can benefit from having one available.

But it'll still be iOS, looking and functioning much like iOS does now. Apple doesn't need to take the same route MS is with Win10. They already have a popular touch based OS with a ton of developer support, so they don't need to come at the problem from the top down. They merely need to expand upon what they have in order to gain parity between the software and hardware.

I agree. Right now, the iPad Pro is no better than its smaller brethren because iOS doesn't make any use of the increased processing power and screen space. You can't even fit more icons on the home screens. The multitasking is a complete joke compared to what you can do on a Surface Pro 3/4, though sufficient for the regular iPad.

What Apple needs to do for iOS 10 is make the Pro work a bit differently from the smaller models by allowing more programs on screen, possibly allowing developers to develop for the new screen size so that mode offers more controls and info on the Pro than on the Air 2. A simply file browser would be much appreciated for all the devices as the completely artificial restrictions on what apps can open what files is just bollocks.

I think there is place for both the iPad Pro and hybrid Surface Pro type devices. While the SP isn't a great tablet, it is good enough for that purpose and is also more than good enough as a laptop. The iPad Pro is a worse laptop replacement but is a good tablet device.
 
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sinophilia

macrumors regular
May 7, 2008
148
76
Italy
I think all this debating comes from the name of the product itself, "Pro", but I don't think it's a direct competitor with MS Surface, at least not for everybody. For me, the iPad Pro is a bigger iPad with a pencil. And that's what I needed! I don't want OS X on it, and I certainly don't want Windows! I have my MBP for that (both OS X and Windows). I wanted an A4-size iPad for reading, writing and drawing. I can't work on a tablet and don't want to. Some categories of professionals will be able to work with the iPad Pro, such as musicians, designers, writers, etc., but many other people won't.

If you can only afford a single product, or want just one piece of technology around you, then you need to consider it very carefully. But many people have a desktop PC or Mac at work, a laptop to bring around, one or more iPads, an iPhone, etc. Every product is perfect for something, good for some other things and bad for others. To each their own.
 

MRU

macrumors Penryn
Aug 23, 2005
25,370
8,952
a better place
I think all this debating comes from the name of the product itself, "Pro", but I don't think it's a direct competitor with MS Surface, at least not for everybody. For me, the iPad Pro is a bigger iPad with a pencil. And that's what I needed! I don't want OS X on it, and I certainly don't want Windows! I have my MBP for that (both OS X and Windows). I wanted an A4-size iPad for reading, writing and drawing. I can't work on a tablet and don't want to. Some categories of professionals will be able to work with the iPad Pro, such as musicians, designers, writers, etc., but many other people won't.

If you can only afford a single product, or want just one piece of technology around you, then you need to consider it very carefully. But many people have a desktop PC or Mac at work, a laptop to bring around, one or more iPads, an iPhone, etc. Every product is perfect for something, good for some other things and bad for others. To each their own.
Yep. I'm in that category myself. That being said I think were likely the minority compared to non-creatives vocation wise.

There does seem to be a general flawed theme / assumption that goes on in forums however. It seems to follow the thought process that if (A) is not geared towards me it must be rubbish. If (A) is called 'pro' and if I am a 'pro' but not in the genre intended by product (A) it must be rubbish.

Essentially there are heaps of choices of devices out there. Just buy whatever works for you. A pro device for you may not be so for someone else, but that doesn't change the devices ability to be used professionally if you are in the niche.

Additionally, I would have no doubt most laptops (outside of office environments) these days with 'file systems' are used mostly for email, internet, shopping & porn than anything 'professional' work wise anyway. Much the same as tablets.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
20,395
23,899
Singapore
Now tell me, what do we have that's better than the hierarchical folder structure? What's out there to replace it?

You don't get rid of something just because it's old. You only replace it once something better arrives to take its place.

I am thinking that a comprehensive tagging system, combined with spotlight search, would allow people to quickly locate files they want to access, rather than having to drill deep into folder after folder.

Even on my Mac, I am using spotlight to locate the files I want to access, rather than open Dropbox and clicking on the files manually.

However, it would take a lot of work and discipline to properly tag your files up front. Most people just dump their files into a folder first and worry about location later.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
I am thinking that a comprehensive tagging system, combined with spotlight search, would allow people to quickly locate files they want to access, rather than having to drill deep into folder after folder.

Even on my Mac, I am using spotlight to locate the files I want to access, rather than open Dropbox and clicking on the files manually.

However, it would take a lot of work and discipline to properly tag your files up front. Most people just dump their files into a folder first and worry about location later.

Tags are great, but by themselves, they're no easier to use than setting up your own folders to put them in. As you said, you're still having to do some level of manual organization, which is the main problem less technical users have with folders in the first place.
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
If you're in the Apple ecosystem why break it?

I agree with this statement right here, and for me it's really the deciding factor. I spend most of my time in apps that are cross platform, and can be used on MacOSX and Windows, but not many of them have the same functionality or exist on iOS.

The Surface Pro 4 seems like a better choice for me, but I am a staunch advocate for sticking with one ecosystem. It makes life easier. When I was in Windows it was all about Windows and it worked well. When I finally switched to OS X I went full bore and never looked back (save for a short stint in Android and Windows 8).

The apps I need really aren't in iOS so I may just wait for the developers to make solid apps for iOS.
 

Zirel

Suspended
Jul 24, 2015
2,196
3,008
DMS does not hide users from files.......lol
Most users don't have to manage their files or documents. They get uploaded to a server where they are managed by NTFS file permissions and security. It is all based on file system security. It's NOT going away.
I manage data security in an enterprise environment. You sir do not have a clue about what you are talking about.


You really don't have an idea of what a DMS really is.

Sir, you don't have a single clue about what you are talking about, and mixing a concept with Microsoft's NTFS file system was really adorable.


The reason why cassette tapes went the way of the dodo was because CDs came to replace them, and they were supplanted by digital music files, which in turn is being superceded by streaming media.

All were replaced due improvements in technologies.

Now tell me, what do we have that's better than the hierarchical folder structure? What's out there to replace it?

You don't get rid of something just because it's old. You only replace it once something better arrives to take its place.

You don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm not talking about Cassete tapes used to store music. I'm talking about cassette tapes to store computer data (programs and documents)
 

Zirel

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Jul 24, 2015
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Oh I do.....but it does nothing to support your assertions about file systems.
File systems are here to stay. They are not going anywhere.

Yeah, I bet you really do, when you show that you don't have any idea of even the intent of them.

File systems of course are here to stay, because we have to store the cloud documents somewhere.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
16,077
19,075
US
Yeah, I bet you really do, when you show that you don't have any idea of even the intent of them.

File systems of course are here to stay, because we have to store the cloud documents somewhere.
Now you are back tracking. First you said file systems should go away and how 1960s they were.
LOL...just where do you think a DMS system stores all the content? On servers with a file system. How do you think all the data/content is managed? That's right you guessed it.....in a file system hierarchy.

Document management systems today range in size and scope from small, standalone systems to large scale enterprise-wide configurations serving a global audience. Many document management systems provide a means to incorporate standard physical document filing practices electronically. These include:

  • Storage location
  • Security and access control
  • Version control
  • Audit trails
  • Check-in/check-out and document lockdown.
- See more at: http://www.aiim.org/What-is-Document-Management#sthash.5baqqsrl.dpuf
 
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jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
16,077
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You really don't have an idea of what a DMS really is.

Sir, you don't have a single clue about what you are talking about, and mixing a concept with Microsoft's NTFS file system was really adorable.
)
You really have no clue and have been called out on it in this thread. You do not have a grasp about what file systems are and the security used to manage permissions.
 
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spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
Got two microsoft stores in my area. Orlando. But they are close to 30 minutes from my house. With traffic, parking etc probably figure 45 minutes to be on the safe side. Issue is I was on call on the weekend at the hospital. But I gotta be back in 30 minutes response time/beeper.

Seriously, Microsoft is trying to be like Apple. They are getting better (giving Windows 10 upgrade for free). But it's absolutely pointless for them to make you have a custom download (using your hotmail/outlook/msn) email address to download a recovery image (after verifying the serial number of the surface).

Look how easy Apple makes their recovery

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201314

I really don't have time to find/buy a new usb flash drive.

Anyways, this is day 2 of me using the Surface Pro 4. I am getting around to liking it. I am not anti Microsoft or Pro Apple. I am just looking for a more robust tablet solution than what the iPad offers. The Surface pro is a full blown desktop computer with the latest intel 6th generation processor. Hopefully the software kinks are worked out soon.

Apple's cloud recovery is pretty awesome, I agree. I also still think they have the absolute best and most reliable way to setup a new/replacement phone/tablet, very seamless. Hopefully Microsoft ramps it up in this area, they have advanced miles ahead of where they used to be though. Under normal situations you would have been able to use the recovery image on the SP itself, but I agree it would have been nice to have an internet recovery like Apple does.
 
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spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
Dude, I'm a computer engineer, a file system is an abstraction, in reality tape drives, or hard disks, or CD's, or flash drives, RAID arrays, are block devices, a file system is built on top of that.

Exposing that abstraction to the user, is sub-optimal for 2015 standards, people don't know how to use file systems, it's too complicated for them, and regularly people forget to backup, don't have enough skill or patience for organizing their own stuff, and simply doesn't work for a large collection, like a 1000-song music library.

In the future, file systems are out for end users. Nobody's here as dumb as you think.

Did you actually try to use programs like FCPX or Premiere? You don't work with files, you work with "documents", that document being a file clip, that you can access directly, or a scaled down copy, etc.

Or even software like Lightroom, you buy Adobe Ligthroom for that file system to vanish, and just work with your photo library like they were real photos, and generate multiple variations of the original document, and organize everything in various ways (like metadata, star rating, etc.).

Professionals avoid filesystems. iOS follows that.

"Professionals avoid filesystems" Seriously, did you really say that? You say nobody's here as dumb as you think, but then you say "people don't know how to use filesystems". I'm sorry, but you are massively dumbing down "people", which I will assume means your average consumer and not someone who should be smart like a computer engineer. The entire point of a file system was to mimic a file system in your office, file cabinets, folders, files, etc., I'd bet a monkey could figure it out. I just don't understand why we need to be dumbed down to the level of a 3 year old, I say 3 because after that age my daughter had no issues finding her files on her windows tablet.

There are various flaws with your argument as it stands in iOS, various functions which cannot be easily accomplished without a file system, or at least what I'm talking about which is a universal file system. You will ALWAYS have some kind of file system, even if it's inside the app as what I think you are talking about. The concept of a "file" will always exist because that file is specific to whatever function the person was trying to accomplish, whether it's a document, resume, picture, song, video, etc. If anything having no file system is infinitely more confusing and frustrating.

With that said I'm not necessarily advocating windows file system, but it IS a file system and infinitely better than no file system at all. Ultimately windows file system will evolve and mold itself better to whatever hardware paradigms are thrown at it.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
The SP3 was anything but stable. Have a look at the forums for the pen issues with OneNote post Windows 10. All of our consultants had issues with 4G modems not working after a firmware update. I could list out 20 issues I had post upgrade. I can show a video now of how windows search would run my CPU to 100% on search so the machine would become non-responsive. The SP3 was solid on 8.1 but not on 10.



I think you're confusing your definition of pro with someone else's. if you're an artist, the iPad Pro is a pro device. I know of plenty of artists who have said this will completely change the way they work.

I would assume most people would consider a Wacom as a pro device, particularly when you get to the high end models like the Cintiq, in fact, it's currently one that most artists and photographers use. The iPad Pro can be connected to a high powered device like an iMac and used in the same way as a Cintiq (which actually costs the same as a 32GB iPad Pro). The 32GB Cintiq version which runs Android actually sells for the same as the 128GB iPad Pro and is the size of a 15" Laptop. I've tested the iPad Pro tethering it as a wacom style tablet and as good as the wacom, and the stylus is more accurate and responsive.

This is what I mean


In short, just because the iPad Pro doesn't meet your definition of a pro device (which to you is a laptop), doesn't make it any less pro. As much as I think Tim Cooks comments about the iPad replacing a laptop are incorrect, it's no less incorrect than Microsoft's comments about the SP4 being twice as fast as a Macbook Pro (It was double on the GPU benchmark but actually score the same or lower on the rest). The iPad Pro can replace a laptop for a user who does nothing more than web apps, email and basic word documents. There are many professionals. I saw a recent article that said that a particular tech journalist has never seen iPad's used properly for business. That's probably because he doesn't actually get out of his office. We see iPad's (and Android devices) used by engineers using something called SAP Work Manager, which essentially allows maintenance engineers to conduct maintenance work at construction plants, attaches the work instruction and drawings to the task so they have supporting information, and allows them to indicate when its complete along with machine readings to support it, take a photo of the completed work etc. Laptops don't work for that, because you can't stand with a laptop in your hand and type on it. Rugged cases on iPad's work better than tough books because they like to navigate by finger, and the iPad's battery lasts way longer than a typical laptop.

I can only iterate my experiences with the SP3, it was a very stable computer the entire time I've owned multiple ones. OneNote issues with Win10, you lost me, these are recent issues I assume because win10 was released recently but the SP3 has been out for almost a year. 4G modems? The SP3 doesn't have a 4g modem or even the option to get one. I can list a bunch of issues with the IPP, in fact I did list several, all devices have issues. (Edit, probably non related but I had to reboot my wife's MacBook air as it has major issues with macrumors responding to forum posts for some reason, no idea why but it slows down to molasses)

As for my definition of "pro", I'm not confusing anything, I was asked if I thought it was a pro device for myself and I replied it was not. It doesn't have the tools to accomplish what I need to get done, it's too primitive. For you it may be a "pro" device though. Of course there are consumers who will view it that way. A farmer views a cow as a "pro" device, doesn't mean that I do.
 

TheMissionMan

macrumors member
Jul 6, 2011
44
20
I can only iterate my experiences with the SP3, it was a very stable computer the entire time I've owned multiple ones. OneNote issues with Win10, you lost me, these are recent issues I assume because win10 was released recently but the SP3 has been out for almost a year. 4G modems? The SP3 doesn't have a 4g modem or even the option to get one. I can list a bunch of issues with the IPP, in fact I did list several, all devices have issues. (Edit, probably non related but I had to reboot my wife's MacBook air as it has major issues with macrumors responding to forum posts for some reason, no idea why but it slows down to molasses)

As for my definition of "pro", I'm not confusing anything, I was asked if I thought it was a pro device for myself and I replied it was not. It doesn't have the tools to accomplish what I need to get done, it's too primitive. For you it may be a "pro" device though. Of course there are consumers who will view it that way. A farmer views a cow as a "pro" device, doesn't mean that I do.

Wifi 4G modem like the Netgear 785S. It would connect for 5 second and then disconnect and you could not see the modem again on your wifi.

Maybe you were lucky on the stylus issue, there were about 10 pages of people with the issue on reddit.

Here is my list of issues I had:

  1. External Display issues – scaling and integration is vastly inferior to OSX, probably as a result of less experience with retina display. While Windows 8 was virtually unusable with external displays without changing your display settings every time you connected and disconnected a display, Windows 10 is a definite improvement and is usable, but if you are constantly connecting to external displays, you are likely to find yourself having to restart your machine on a regular basis as unplugging the machine isn’t always seamless. I.e. one in every four disconnections was my experience. If you move around, connection to projectors in meetings and then shift back to your desk, this will be a major annoyance. If you plug in for an entire day or don’t unplug regularly, this probably won’t be as big an issue.
  2. Restarts – Other than the display issue, I found myself restarting on a regular basis. Sometimes once a day, sometimes more than once. Coming from my Macbook Air, the only time I restart is when software updates require it so this was annoying. Sometimes it was an application that caused the machine to slow down and without a restart, performance would remain bad.
  3. Hard Drive issue – The Surface Pro 3 hard drive had some issues with SSD speed. I found the source of the problem which relates to firmware on the drive but Microsoft tie down the OS so you can only apply firmware fixes approved by Microsoft. I.e. you can’t update the graphics card driver unless Microsoft releases the update. This would be great if Microsoft did the updates, unfortunately they haven’t so you’re stuck with crappy performance despite the Oct 2014 release date of the fix by Samsung. Yup. 1 year later MS is more focused on the SP4 than existing users who may just have dumped their product as a result.
  4. Stylus performance went horribly wrong after my Office 2016 update. There are heaps of posts on Reddit about this exact issue. It may have been fixed with Windows 10 SP1, but to be honest, I dumped the device after all the headaches so I don’t know. It was bad enough that writing in One Note was virtually useless. The pen would stop working halfware through taking notes in a meeting, and letters in words would be skipped.
  5. Reinstallation of Windows 10 multiple time – Never had to reinstall Windows on my Mac but in the time since the release of Windows 10, I did it twice on my Surface Pro 3 to resolve issues. Search simply wouldn’t work, the processor would max out for 20 seconds and the entire device would become non-responsive.
  6. All of our consultants suddenly found their 4G Wifi modems stopped working, different devices from Netgear thanks to a firmware update. A month later MS fixed it, a month too late because I dumped the device.
  7. One of the key features of OneNote with the stylus that sold me on the product was the ability to tap the back of the pen and have it open OneNote. On the original version (windows 8, office 2013), you could configure this to the desktop app instead of the tablet app, because the tablet app was terrible and lacked most of the features. With Windows 10 and Office 2016, they removed this ability to configure which mean the functionality was useless as it now defaults to the tablet app. That means you now have to login to the device, open the desktop app and then start writing instead of tapping the back of the pen once.
  8. Office 2016 would crash on a regular basis, sometimes in a large document. Outlook would crash regularly, particularly if you lost internet connection which for me was often thanks to point 6 where I found myself having to tether my device to my phone. Everytime I left to go to a meeting room to take a call, I would come back and Outlook was non-responsive.
  9. Search was dismal. Results were not great compared to spotlight which resulted in me having to buy X1 to cater for the bad search capability. X1 takes time to load up so in short, for someone who uses spotlight a lot, it was annoying as hell.
  10. Microsoft decided to use a AAAA battery which is not the easiest to find when you run out of battery. On top of this, they use a second battery in the top of the pen. Fortunately that last longer but is also harder to find, so if you need your stylus and your battery runs out, there is no way to fix it other than get another battery (and carry a spare with you always)
  11. My Surface Pro 3 had an issue with not switching off. If I put the cover on, it would switch off, but if I made the mistake of not switching off my mouse first, it would restart when I picked up the mouse and continue running down my battery in my bag despite the mouse now being off and no external keyboard or screen being attached. I would find myself boarding 4 hour plane with zero battery and no entertainment for my flight.
  12. Even when the point above wasn’t a problem, the battery drain overnight was still substantial with the device turned off. I would lose about 15-20% overnight for a device switched off. If I didn’t use it over the weekend, you could wake up on Monday with less than 50% of your battery remaining.
  13. Keyboard would randomly not work. It wasn’t regular but required restarts to fix
  14. Battery life definitely was not on a par with an iPad or my MBA. A 4 hour flight would pretty much kill all my battery.
  15. Travel – Lack of supported applications for travel. Virgin app not available so I tried Andy with Android but that would not show the headphones connected and mute the sound. If you use a web browser, the device seemed unaware that you were watching a film and would exit full screen mode after the screen timed out so you had to tap it every 5 minutes to keep it awake and stop it turning off.
  16. Default installation of Windows 10 cost me over $100 of mobile when they decided to setup torrenting of updates to other users out of the box. I.e. they default your windows 10 to send updates to other users on the internet which isn't fun when you are using a mobile broadband device. Found the problem, but not before it cost me a little.
  17. Apps constantly losing login details – What little apps existed (like Facebook), I found issues with having to reput in login details.
  18. Machine would randomly default to full user login instead of tablet login (full network login instead of tablet login). It didn’t happen often but was annoying.
  19. Microsoft Outlook had some issue where I couldn't pin the Outlook icon to the task bar. If I opened Outlook, it would open a second blank icon. The issue is known and annoying. MS didn't have a solution for it at the time I sold my SP3
Here is an example of the non-responsive search

 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
Wifi 4G modem like the Netgear 785S. It would connect for 5 second and then disconnect and you could not see the modem again on your wifi.

Maybe you were lucky on the stylus issue, there were about 10 pages of people with the issue on reddit.

Here is my list of issues I had:

  1. External Display issues – scaling and integration is vastly inferior to OSX, probably as a result of less experience with retina display. While Windows 8 was virtually unusable with external displays without changing your display settings every time you connected and disconnected a display, Windows 10 is a definite improvement and is usable, but if you are constantly connecting to external displays, you are likely to find yourself having to restart your machine on a regular basis as unplugging the machine isn’t always seamless. I.e. one in every four disconnections was my experience. If you move around, connection to projectors in meetings and then shift back to your desk, this will be a major annoyance. If you plug in for an entire day or don’t unplug regularly, this probably won’t be as big an issue.
  2. Restarts – Other than the display issue, I found myself restarting on a regular basis. Sometimes once a day, sometimes more than once. Coming from my Macbook Air, the only time I restart is when software updates require it so this was annoying. Sometimes it was an application that caused the machine to slow down and without a restart, performance would remain bad.
  3. Hard Drive issue – The Surface Pro 3 hard drive had some issues with SSD speed. I found the source of the problem which relates to firmware on the drive but Microsoft tie down the OS so you can only apply firmware fixes approved by Microsoft. I.e. you can’t update the graphics card driver unless Microsoft releases the update. This would be great if Microsoft did the updates, unfortunately they haven’t so you’re stuck with crappy performance despite the Oct 2014 release date of the fix by Samsung. Yup. 1 year later MS is more focused on the SP4 than existing users who may just have dumped their product as a result.
  4. Stylus performance went horribly wrong after my Office 2016 update. There are heaps of posts on Reddit about this exact issue. It may have been fixed with Windows 10 SP1, but to be honest, I dumped the device after all the headaches so I don’t know. It was bad enough that writing in One Note was virtually useless. The pen would stop working halfware through taking notes in a meeting, and letters in words would be skipped.
  5. Reinstallation of Windows 10 multiple time – Never had to reinstall Windows on my Mac but in the time since the release of Windows 10, I did it twice on my Surface Pro 3 to resolve issues. Search simply wouldn’t work, the processor would max out for 20 seconds and the entire device would become non-responsive.
  6. All of our consultants suddenly found their 4G Wifi modems stopped working, different devices from Netgear thanks to a firmware update. A month later MS fixed it, a month too late because I dumped the device.
  7. One of the key features of OneNote with the stylus that sold me on the product was the ability to tap the back of the pen and have it open OneNote. On the original version (windows 8, office 2013), you could configure this to the desktop app instead of the tablet app, because the tablet app was terrible and lacked most of the features. With Windows 10 and Office 2016, they removed this ability to configure which mean the functionality was useless as it now defaults to the tablet app. That means you now have to login to the device, open the desktop app and then start writing instead of tapping the back of the pen once.
  8. Office 2016 would crash on a regular basis, sometimes in a large document. Outlook would crash regularly, particularly if you lost internet connection which for me was often thanks to point 6 where I found myself having to tether my device to my phone. Everytime I left to go to a meeting room to take a call, I would come back and Outlook was non-responsive.
  9. Search was dismal. Results were not great compared to spotlight which resulted in me having to buy X1 to cater for the bad search capability. X1 takes time to load up so in short, for someone who uses spotlight a lot, it was annoying as hell.
  10. Microsoft decided to use a AAAA battery which is not the easiest to find when you run out of battery. On top of this, they use a second battery in the top of the pen. Fortunately that last longer but is also harder to find, so if you need your stylus and your battery runs out, there is no way to fix it other than get another battery (and carry a spare with you always)
  11. My Surface Pro 3 had an issue with not switching off. If I put the cover on, it would switch off, but if I made the mistake of not switching off my mouse first, it would restart when I picked up the mouse and continue running down my battery in my bag despite the mouse now being off and no external keyboard or screen being attached. I would find myself boarding 4 hour plane with zero battery and no entertainment for my flight.
  12. Even when the point above wasn’t a problem, the battery drain overnight was still substantial with the device turned off. I would lose about 15-20% overnight for a device switched off. If I didn’t use it over the weekend, you could wake up on Monday with less than 50% of your battery remaining.
  13. Keyboard would randomly not work. It wasn’t regular but required restarts to fix
  14. Battery life definitely was not on a par with an iPad or my MBA. A 4 hour flight would pretty much kill all my battery.
  15. Travel – Lack of supported applications for travel. Virgin app not available so I tried Andy with Android but that would not show the headphones connected and mute the sound. If you use a web browser, the device seemed unaware that you were watching a film and would exit full screen mode after the screen timed out so you had to tap it every 5 minutes to keep it awake and stop it turning off.
  16. Default installation of Windows 10 cost me over $100 of mobile when they decided to setup torrenting of updates to other users out of the box. I.e. they default your windows 10 to send updates to other users on the internet which isn't fun when you are using a mobile broadband device. Found the problem, but not before it cost me a little.
  17. Apps constantly losing login details – What little apps existed (like Facebook), I found issues with having to reput in login details.
  18. Machine would randomly default to full user login instead of tablet login (full network login instead of tablet login). It didn’t happen often but was annoying.
  19. Microsoft Outlook had some issue where I couldn't pin the Outlook icon to the task bar. If I opened Outlook, it would open a second blank icon. The issue is known and annoying. MS didn't have a solution for it at the time I sold my SP3
Here is an example of the non-responsive search


1) Windows 8 wasn't great at scaling, thankfully that's a moot point as Win 10 is quite awesome at scaling. Works great all the way down to my 8" tablet and up to my 4k monitors. Never had to reboot my SP's either, and I use them every day at work that way: connected to 2 4k monitors, and regularly take the SP off the dock to show a patient a study.

2) I would only restart with software updates, never had to restart because of a hanging app. I've found the converse to be true and find myself restarting my wifes macbook frequently due to hanging apps.

3) No issues with SSD speed on my SP3. Of course MS caters to new users, Apple does as well. You can apply drivers outside of MS ones including SSD and graphics so Im not sure what you mean there. Windows is very open in that way.

4) OneNote on my SP3 has been flawless, I regularly write multiple page reports and regularly take notes at mulitple day seminars, I couldn't be more impressed with a product.

5) Never had to reinstall win 8 or 10 unless I was changing to a different PC.

6) No experience with that one, it's possible it was Netgear's fault but I have no idea.

7) MS has said in a blog they are adding that feature back in.

8) I've rarely had a crash in Office 2013, can't be more than 3 or 4 times in the past 3 years I've been using it. Office 2016 no crashes at all, but I've only been using it for about 4 months now. I constantly use Office, half of my work life is spent in Office.

9) Search with Cortana is excellent, much better than spotlight. I prefer Google though so I use that instead. I may be in the minority (or not) but spotlight searches suck IMO. I find myself filtering through irrelevent information for far too long.

10) Never had an issue, my battery lasted a full year until I transitioned into the SP4. My SP3 stylus still hasn't needed a battery, but I don't use it as much now. I am a very copious note taker and used the crap out of the SP3 stylus.

11) Yes I recall that issue very early in the SP3 life, but MS fixed that quite quickly.

12) Valid point, much of this was fixed on the SP3 but some still persists on the SP4.

13) Valid point, this happens VERY rarely but does happen. But I didn't need a restart, I simply unsnapped and resnapped the keyboard and it would work again.

14) MBA has better battery life. 4 hours is a bit short if you aren't playing games IMO. I'd say 5-6 hours is more realistic, maybe a bit longer tweaking settings. Once again though the MBA has better battery life, but it's not a valid comparison IMO. Apples versus apples you should compare the MBA with the non pro surface 3 which has much better battery life.

15) I'd just use the web app for a richer experience, but I'm not denying your point in regards to apps. I've never run the VIrgin app on OSx though so I'm not sure how much you were missing out on.

16) This can be turned off.

17) Never had this issue.

18) Never had this issue.

19) Never had this issue

Never had an unresposive search. Now I've owned 5 or 6 SP3's and 2 SP4's, not representative of all the sales out there but certainly a good experience with a lot of them. Once again, as stated before, I could put up a large list of similar issues with OSx and/or iOS, all hardware/software has issues.
 
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MRU

macrumors Penryn
Aug 23, 2005
25,370
8,952
a better place
I just had a argument with Apple Customer Service.

I ordered my iPad Pro 128gb & Apple Pencil and specifically ticked the box to ship items together even if it meant there was a delay. I do not see any reason to get just the iPad Pro without the pencil as I haven iPad Air 2 and a couple of other bluetooth stylus's devices.

So my delivery date has been showing beginning of January. and then today I got an email saying my Pencil is now 8-14th Jan and they are despatching the iPad pro NOW !!! Feck them. I did not want that, I specifically said so in my order and yet they now claim its an automatic procedure that because the lead time is so long on the pencil its automatically split the order ..

Why give people the option to choose 'ship together even if it means a delay' if you have a system that overrides that wish? I am really frustrated. I am now going to have my iPad Pro by end of the week, but have to wait 5-6 weeks for my pencil. FECK EM!

RANT OVER !!!!!!
 
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jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
16,077
19,075
US
I just had a argument with Apple Customer Service.

I ordered my iPad Pro 128gb & Apple Pencil and specifically ticked the box to ship items together even if it meant there was a delay. I do not see any reason to get just the iPad Pro without the pencil as I haven iPad Air 2 and a couple of other bluetooth stylus's devices.

So my delivery date has been showing beginning of January. and then today I got an email saying my Pencil is now 8-14th Jan and they are despatching the iPad pro NOW !!! Feck them. I did not want that, I specifically said so in my order and yet they now claim its an automatic procedure that because the lead time is so long on the pencil its automatically split the order ..

Why give people the option to choose 'ship together even if it means a delay' if you have a system that overrides that wish? I am really frustrated. I am now going to have my iPad Pro by end of the week, but have to wait 5-6 weeks for my pencil. FECK EM!

RANT OVER !!!!!!
That is very frustrating! I wonder why the pencil is hard to get? Did they underestimate the demand? I am not a professional illustrator like you MRU. But I could not see myself getting the IPP without the pencil to go along with it. Especially after watching the demo at the keynote.
 
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