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The 2023-2024 Football Thread
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Speaking of Giggs, this all feels like history repeating. In 2020, he was charged with physically abusing his ex-partner. Wales placed him on leave from his head coaching gig, and he remained on leave for over a year and a half before finally stepping down. In that case, the witnesses declined to testify and the charges were eventually dropped. He's permanently damaged goods despite not being convicted.
It's depressing how poorly United have handled the Greenwood situation. There's pretty much no way they can save face from the mess they've made, whether or not everything reported in the media is accurate or not. (I believe it was The Sun, not the most reliable of sources, who claimed United were putting it on the women's team to decide.) If they terminated his contract early on, I would have agreed with it. After all this time has passed, I'm just resigned to them acting stupidly and piling on more disgrace on the club.
It's depressing how poorly United have handled the Greenwood situation. There's pretty much no way they can save face from the mess they've made, whether or not everything reported in the media is accurate or not. (I believe it was The Sun, not the most reliable of sources, who claimed United were putting it on the women's team to decide.) If they terminated his contract early on, I would have agreed with it. After all this time has passed, I'm just resigned to them acting stupidly and piling on more disgrace on the club.
In fairness to United, they could not do anything until the criminal case against Greenwood was finished. When complying with employment law the club took the proper steps in that there was sufficient evidence against Greenwood to justify a suspension from all activities at the club which they did. The club then waited for the outcome of the criminal case but they was buggered when the police dropped their case against him. There is actual physical evidence against Greenwood that would stand up in court and have convicted him but key witnesses backed out which forced the CPS to drop the case because without the key witnesses they did not have a strong case against him (the witnesses would have been needed to confirm the evidence). Dropping the case against Greenwood put United in a very very difficult situation. How do you sack someone using evidence that no one would collaborate. If United were to sack Greenwood for gross misconduct or for bringing the club into disrepute and Greenwood was to bring a case of unfair dismissal claim against the club, do the club want a very public employment issue being dragged out for all to see. This is why you find many employers will either settle out of court quietly or not bother at all because they do not want to tarnish their reputation. Problem United now currently have is that if they do not sack him and allow him to stay at the club, the club's reputation would be tarnished but if they sack him and he claims unfair dismissal, the clubs reputation would be tarnished due to a very public employment tribunal.
On another note I see Man City have won another trophy, the UEFA Super Cup. Now they will have the World Club cup (whatever it's called) to go for and if they were to win that, it could have been a grand slam for City but for not winning the EFL cup (United won that cup). because, correct me if I am wrong but they are all the main 6 trophies a club can go for, winning the league, the FA Cup, the EFL Cup, the community shield, the UEFA Super Cup and the World Club cup. If City do go ahead and win the World club cup I wonder how annoyed Pep would be at not winning the EFL cup to have made it a perfect haul.
This would have to be a part of it. A grovelling apology without any reservations to - firstly - the injured parties (which could be difficult to do without re-implicating himself, legally), and then - secondly - to the fans. Then, maybe, just maybe, we could see him playing for United again.
I doubt this. Maybe selling him off to Saudi Arabia would be the best for all parties?
He will never apologize because to do so is an admission of guilt which as you rightly point out would implicate himself. I do believe it will be the court of public opinion that will decide Greenwoods fate. It will be interesting to see how this plays out because people have been sacked for what was said in historical social media messages. People have been sacked for alleged links to far right political groups but yet here we have an alleged rapist and alleged abuser who the club is considering keeping. Be an alleged homophobe, your sacked, be an alleged far right supporter your sacked but be an alleged rapist and alleged abuser you may keep your job all because they are a footballer. To be honest it is sickening. They should have got rid of Greenwood a long time ago. Different standards for different people.
My guess is they were hoping he’d be convicted and his contract could then be terminated no problem. However as he is innocent in the eyes of the law (not in reality of course!), his lawyers could argue his contract should be paid up.
I like others think it’s a lose lose situation for Utd.
If anything, I think this issue will get United to re-evaluate how it writes it contracts because I have no doubt there would be higher up's in the club who wanted him gone but United legal telling them they cannot because it would not only breach his contract of employment but also various aspects of employment law.
Alex Ferguson would have got rid of him no problem! But the world has moved on a bit since then.
Funny you say that because other press articles I've read about Greenwood have said the same thing in that if Alex Ferguson was still manager he would have got rid of him ASAP.
Many managers (and clubs) bench players - for years on end - even though they are still contracted to the club.
People here are writing that it is a "lose-lose" situation for United, but the club still has choices it can make, one of which is ensuring that the player never appears on the pitch - or, on the bench - for the club again, not while wearing the club shirt.
While I don't doubt that they have explored the option - and potential costs (financial among others) of a termination of his contract (and why ever not? Poor buys are costly, - and it is not as though United haven't had more than a few of those, United can afford the financial hit and it wouod be the ethical thing to do), and equally, have no doubt whatsoever that contracts will be further refined in the light of this.
I agree that United were probably hoping that the problem would go away of its own accord (with a conviction), and that this would have allowed them to terminate his contract, but, it is time for them to take a stand, a moral stand, an ethical stand. If players and clubs can take a knee (and action with which I am in complete agreement) prior to a game, then, they can also take a stand against domestic violence and coercive control.
This is because, given the sheer vicous ugliness of what has been published so far, there cannot be many who doubt that Greenwood behaved atrociously, and was an abusive, vicious and violent individual.
People here are writing that it is a "lose-lose" situation for United, but the club still has choices it can make, one of which is ensuring that the player never appears on the pitch - or, on the bench - for the club again, not while wearing the club shirt.
While I don't doubt that they have explored the option - and potential costs (financial among others) of a termination of his contract (and why ever not? Poor buys are costly, - and it is not as though United haven't had more than a few of those, United can afford the financial hit and it wouod be the ethical thing to do), and equally, have no doubt whatsoever that contracts will be further refined in the light of this.
I agree that United were probably hoping that the problem would go away of its own accord (with a conviction), and that this would have allowed them to terminate his contract, but, it is time for them to take a stand, a moral stand, an ethical stand. If players and clubs can take a knee (and action with which I am in complete agreement) prior to a game, then, they can also take a stand against domestic violence and coercive control.
This is because, given the sheer vicous ugliness of what has been published so far, there cannot be many who doubt that Greenwood behaved atrociously, and was an abusive, vicious and violent individual.
Benching the player is not possible because if one can remember, Alex Ferguson tried that with a club player, (may have been Tevez or Sanchez, not sure), had a falling out and refused to play him, saying he would rot in the reserves. The PFA got involved and said football rules state a registered first team player is to play x amount of first team game hours and if they do not then it be considered a breach of contract by the club.
Does he have to be actually registered as a first team player with the squad?
That comes down to club/managerial choice.
Many clubs have excess players, and cannot register all of them.
Anyway, this is an issue where the clubs - and managers - and, indeed, team-mates - should take a stance on; I cannot imagine that many of the Manchester United squad would be happy at the thought of Greenwood returning to the team, in any capacity.
Most companies or businesses would have sought to terminate a contract of employment in similar circumstances, and I would imagine that future contracts will reflect this.
Candidly, United's reputation will be better for terminating the contract, rather than to try to find some means of reconciling a revolted public with "being fair" to the player. There is no way that any link (irrespective of legalities) with Greenwood could be of any benefit to United, and - to my mind - it is better for them to try to take sosme sort of belated stand on this.
Agreed: The legendary Sir Alex would not have stood for this, and I had expected better from ETH.
I am wondering if United are trying to figure out if the evidence that was presented to the police which got Greenwood arrested for attempted rape and assault is actually true because if there is any truth to the original claims then that would be enough to sack him because the club can say that due to image of the club and the standards it is expected to uphold by the public and stakeholders, the evidence of Greenwoods wronging shows that he is of very poor character and is not someone the club want's to keep. If Greenwood then tried to claim unfair dismissal he would have to prove that the evidence against him is false. Question is would he be prepared to do that, knowing the world would be looking in.
It would not surprise me if there are some in United who want to keep Greenwood because he is a very very good player and was expected to go far until his arrest caused everything to go wrong.
It's not ETH's decision. At all. He's said so over and over whenever the press ask him about it. It's not really fair to make it his responsibility since the situation predates his tenure, anyway. It's all up to Richard Arnold, who has not shown much of a spine in dealing with this so far. I mean, he was going to record a video statement explaining United's decision instead of giving a live press conference? How utterly tone deaf and cowardly.
It's only 'lose-lose' because of the narrow self-interested perspective we know the club have taken on the affair. They could be more courageous and declare 'this behavior goes against our values and we don't have to tolerate it, even if it costs us money.' But that, as we have discussed at length, is not how the modern game thinks.
And this is not on the Man Utd women's team, or fans, or manager (as @Silencio mentioned). This is on the club suits and ultimately the ownership.
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Considering how the 'suits' have acted in the past, it was always going to be a disaster when they finally had to get around to dealing with Greenwood once the CPS dropped the case against him.
That's my default expectation when any club suits get involved in a complex issue.
Unfortunately, you are more than probably right.
However, to my mind, Greenwood should never be allowed to appear anywhere (let alone on either the bench or the football pitch) in a United shirt.
Ha, the FA has stated it FA insists " it will ‘100%’ reject any offers for Sarina Wiegman" now that Andonovski has resigned from the USA.
Given the USA's status I am confident we will attract top talent, so I don't blame them for being defensive. USA has a young squad and will come to the next tournament very hungry. I think they can very quickly become a dominant force again in the right hands...as long as USSoccer doesn't bungle the managerial appointment (and they have a track record there, unfortunately, especially in the Men's game). That will temp every 'name' manager out there.
It will be interesting to see, as the women's game grows, at what point they will be able to draw some big name managers from the men's game (i.e. NOT Phil Neville) to the top women's national sides. It may sounds fanciful today but it's only a matter of time IMO.
Given the USA's status I am confident we will attract top talent, so I don't blame them for being defensive. USA has a young squad and will come to the next tournament very hungry. I think they can very quickly become a dominant force again in the right hands...as long as USSoccer doesn't bungle the managerial appointment (and they have a track record there, unfortunately, especially in the Men's game). That will temp every 'name' manager out there.
It will be interesting to see, as the women's game grows, at what point they will be able to draw some big name managers from the men's game (i.e. NOT Phil Neville) to the top women's national sides. It may sounds fanciful today but it's only a matter of time IMO.
I'd love to see her coach the England men's team. She'd win things with them.
She is the real deal. For the present top female managers will probably lean towards staying in the women's game due to the toxic culture prevalent in the men's game, but in terms of pure ability there's nothing preventing them from succeeding at even the elite levels of men's football.
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So perhaps that's Man U's out?
Easy sale to anyone in the Middle East that will take him? Explain to him that due to the negative publicity there's no place for him here at the club and that he may either choose to train and not play, or go overseas and get paid well and play and possibly even resurrect his career.