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Alphazoid

macrumors 65816
Dec 5, 2014
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Reminds me, how's the Lexus so far, @Alphazoid?

Pretty good. Needs an airbag replacement though as part of the big recall. And i managed to put a minor scratch on one of the wheels but i have wheel coverage so no big deal.

Otherwise its treating me nicely.

Surprise chick magnet too...not really...but i like to pretend it is.
 
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iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
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Toronto, Ontario
It has novelty. Minis are still unique despite the expansion of the product line.

I agree that 4/5 door minis are ugly but the 3 door models and the performance models have a certain charm.

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JCW MINI's never fail to disappoint - they're what fun and track capable look like. The only knock on it is the extremely hefty price tag being associated with BMWAG.
 

2298754

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JCW MINI's never fail to disappoint - they're what fun and track capable look like. The only knock on it is the extremely hefty price tag being associated with BMWAG.

I've never owned a MINI, but I keep reading reports of awful quality.

I sorta want a new Clubman S All4 with the manual, but it's almost $40k with options. Why not just get a Golf R at that point?
 

A.Goldberg

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Jan 31, 2015
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There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I wasn't suggesting an individual who chooses to lease a 320i to go for a 340i or the 330i, a large price difference, simply because... From what I've seen in younger crowds, which is also what I was talking about originally and not necessarily families, they'll typically have their parents (or if they've got a decent job) pick out a low end BMW of the 3 series, and option it out to the gills, to the point that it either meets the price of a 340i or exceeds it, and lease or finance that car. The payment is going to be roughly the same or more than the 340i and the insurance will roughly be the same. That's what I'm talking about. It makes little sense to me. You get more options standard when you pony up for higher trims. Lease specials through a dealership, from what I've noted in the last decade, are for a specific trim with specific options. Though BMW, as @AutoUnion39 says, loves to throw out specials. One could grab a current M5 for "cheap" compared to other cars in its price range on a lease, because that's not a car you'd want to keep due to depreciation and the cost of maintaining it after warranty.

And yeah, I know what you mean. There's a slightly younger couple with 4 kids several blocks from us. I won't drop a name, but the husband and wife are notable, an according to Google have a combined net worth of mid-low eight figures. What do they drive? A minivan, the Odyssey (which is a fantastic value IMO) and a Prius with the snazzy solar roof. While we don't have quite their wealth (maybe by the time I'm an older sod), I value other stuff like investing my money. And yeah, I can buy an insane car most people would kill to have, but I don't fancy having to sleep on the couch or the fact that it draws attention and people would think I'm a dick. I can be a dick, only when needed. I hate to bring age up here, but when you get older, your priorities change. It's why you won't see wealthy households spend silly money on sports car unless the kids are older and off to college or soon going to. A luxury sedan is acceptable, as you pointed out.

There's a stark contrast between what I mean, what you interpreted and what the harsher reality is. I'm not sure what it's like in New England, but on the west coast, I see far too many people your or AU's age range where they make an alright salary, but spend a ridiculous amount of money financing or leasing a car that they shouldn't have gotten in the first place. Because their lifestyle outside of the car suffers. They can't save money, they have no means of investing it, they have trouble paying bills, etc. which I'm sure that John Oliver video is about (as I haven't seen it yet.).

Honestly, if MBZ offers a decent V6 engine with good power in their E Wagons, I'd probably get that instead of of the AMG. Apart from the lower price and more sound investment, the last time I spent nearly that much money I ended up with an SUV I can't quite sell without being lowballed, can't really do anything because it has a airbag recall, etc. And honestly, that Prius with the solar roof is the coolest thing I've seen in cars. AC when you're not around? That's amazing. You can either autostart the AC for a few minutes prior to entry or leave it turned on before you exit the car.

As we've spoken in private in detail, I'll simply say the car I'd buy in instant if it weren't for the previous details of sleeping on a couch and it being used (some assume used is used), would be a mint 930 slantnose. I've wanted one for a good 20 years. I'll probably buy one as my only splurge once my kids are much older. By then the $75K used price may well exceed double it, but it's still something I'd love to have. There's no other car that can get me as excited as those. I feel silly for admitting that, but really, there is nothing that comes close to it. Well, maybe a 50s Land Rover like the one my father owned in the old country.

The thing I've typically seen with BMW's is that the base models of each engine trim are generally pretty similar, and then you must tack on the a la carte packages which are generally similarly priced. So whether you go with a 330i or 340i you still have to pay for leather, tech packages, etc. Therefore the prices are proportional. That's why you see so many 328i's and 528i's and X3 28i's optioned up- cause you have to pay thousands more for the larger engine and still must add the same options.

Your example seems more applicable to buying a loaded Honda vs just buying an Acura. It might cost a couple thousand more but you might get a better warranty and likely have better resale.

I'll give you a higher 320i seems like a poor choice as once you give it rather standard options you're into a 328 (or now 330). From a cursory look anyways. Consequently you don't see many 320's around.

There's plenty of young people with no savings, no accumulated wealth, making enough money to barely lease/finance a nice car. There's certainly plenty of older people too who make the same poor decision. But we don't know other people's personal finances and they're not really our business.

My dad has a restore 1973 Series II 88" Land Rover. They're fun little toys.
 

2298754

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I'll give you a higher 320i seems like a poor choice as once you give it rather standard options you're into a 328 (or now 330). From a cursory look anyways. Consequently you don't see many 320's around.

This.

Once you take a 320i and add prem pack/NAV/sunroof/cold weather/updated headlights, they cost about the same. I'm sure you can swing a larger discount on the 328/330i over the rarer 320

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iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
4,925
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Toronto, Ontario
I've never owned a MINI, but I keep reading reports of awful quality.

I sorta want a new Clubman S All4 with the manual, but it's almost $40k with options. Why not just get a Golf R at that point?

My experience is more/less with what you would expect in a BMW, i.e. gaskets needing to be replaced a lot sooner than one expects, electric gremlins here and there that are relatively easy to fix and of course panels and trim pieces not being screwed tight enough. But other than that, nothing catastrophic. The R56 had that ugly timing chain issue (similar to N54 HPFP issue in terms of scale) but that's covered under warranty. If there is one thing I love about the MINI is that it is so easy to work on.

As a second car, I can tolerate the MINI and any faults it may start to have in terms of quality but I don't think I would buy one as a DD/primary car solely for the fact that the ride is not compliant at all. The stiff chassis is fun for a weekend/second car if you focus is on driving but to be sitting in a car day/day and feel every bump and crack, no thanks. The F56 has mad the MINI a lot more liveable but of course it got the BMW treatment where driving experience is significantly toned down for more driving comfort.
 

2298754

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Yeah thats the problems with the JCW. You can get more car/practicality for the money. Which is why buyers will be buying purely on an emotional level rather than rationale.

Yeah, the Golf R is (arguably) a better car than a Cooper S or whatever at that price point. I guess if you want a "cheap" new BMW... it's a fun little car.
 
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iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
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Toronto, Ontario
Yeah, the Golf R is (arguably) a better car than a Cooper S or whatever at that price point. I guess if you want a "cheap" new BMW, that's a pretty fun little car though.

I wouldn't say arguably, the Golf R is the better car overall. MINI's are only for the fun factor, everything else they're lacking in. The F56 MINI's have taken step in overall quality but are probably a generation behind in fully meeting or exceeding others in the class.
 
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0388631

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To be crass about it, I assume the kid thinks two people could comfortably fit in the rear of a mini with the seats folded down, if you catch my drift. Back before phones and beepers even were a norm, you could give you roommate if you had one a tenner to buzz off for a few hours. That's what wagons were made for, at least back in the day. Saw the Macan again, today. Same Macan, actually. This time I pulled to the curb and got out to look at it up close. Much smaller than I thought it would be up close. Reminds me of the older Rav 4s. As I suspected, it's an S and has black interior. The interior is interesting... it looked very cramped. I'm about 6'4 myself and I don't think I could easily fit in the driver's seat of the Macan. But I'm curious to see how the GTS version performs on a closed track with the ride hide and inch or two down.

And just to add fuel to the fire, if I were looking for a weekend driver that's fun and compact, it would probably be the Golf R. AWD, good power that's set to increase for the MK8, the MK7 is getting new interior treatments for 2017, great MPG, and a plethora of performance upgrade options. Navi and DCC are set to be standard in '17. It may be a tad pricey, but it's a fantastic go getter. I would assume you don't see many on the road now is because dealers don't carry many and probably because the insurance rate is high because of stupid drivers (see: young folk).
 
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Suture

macrumors 65816
Feb 22, 2007
1,003
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FWIW, insurance on my Golf R is only $54.33/mo. I'm 40, have a clean record. Coverage is $250 deductible/$0 glass. Includes towing, rental, etc.

It's a great all around call, but I can't help but miss having a roadster. I can't help myself from looking at other cars.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
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Vilano Beach, FL
Goddam, almost $50K for a 2.0L 3-series (I know it's not about displacement ... but still ...), er, I guess it's at least AWD.

I guess the M3/4 isn't all that bad of a deal :D
 
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iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
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Goddam, almost $50K for a 2.0L 3-series (I know it's not about displacement ... but still ...), er, I guess it's at least AWD.

I guess the M3/4 isn't all that bad of a deal :D

It's not if you're willing to build one from factory. But all the dealerships here have almost every BMW fully loaded so that 328i at $50-60k CAD is still a whole lot cheaper than a well-equiped M3/M4 which is $100k+ CAD.

So going back to what was discussed early in this thread, it's not that people are buying 328i for $50-60k not knowing that they could get a 340i with that money, it's because the 340i is also loaded and is over $70k. I don't know many people who would custom build a 320i/328i - it's not worth it really to wait a month or two so they suck it up and buy whatever is on the lot of dealers and unfortunately, all stock are loaded with options hence the bloated price tag.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
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So going back to what was discussed early in this thread, it's not that people are buying 328i for $50-60k not knowing that they could get a 340i with that money, it's because the 340i is also loaded and is over $70k. I don't know many people who would custom build a 320i/328i - it's not worth it really to wait a month or two so they suck it up and buy whatever is on the lot of dealers and unfortunately, all stock are loaded with options hence the bloated price tag.

Yeah, essentially that was my point. While a loaded 330i is similar in price to a base 340i, you still have to option up a 340i ($50k base with sensatec and no Nav, are you kidding me!?). Spec'ed out to similar specs as @AutoUnion39 posted, with the 340i xDrive you're still looking about $10,000 over the 328i to be similarly equipped. $59,245 and that still leaves options missing.

I think your average driver would A. Be entirely satisfied with the performance of a 330i, B. Scoff at spending $60k on a 3-series that's not even fully optioned which is exactly why we see so many 328/330 over 335/340. Also consider taxes and options. At $60k you're easily into 5-series territory.

It seems BMWs current scheme is to have essentially all the same base options on each trim of each model (exception 320i). So each trim is essentially just the engine. Then you have to add on the same packages which are similarly priced. Buying the higher trim doesn't really get you anything but a bigger engine.
 
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Alphazoid

macrumors 65816
Dec 5, 2014
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Here in europe people rarely BTO BMWs you go to the dealer find whats on the lot...usually a 118d/320d/520d with M-sport bumper and basic amenities and pick one up on a cheap-ish lease in black or white. Unless you're foreign, in which case you have to buy in cash.

These things often don't have leather or even parking sensors. You get a basic economical engine, a BMW badge, basic iDrive/BT/AC and thats it.
 

iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
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Toronto, Ontario
Yeah, essentially that was my point. While a loaded 330i is similar in price to a base 340i, you still have to option up a 340i ($50k base with sensatec and no Nav, are you kidding me!?). Spec'ed out to similar specs as @AutoUnion39 posted, with the 340i xDrive you're still looking about $10,000 over the 328i to be similarly equipped. $59,245 and that still leaves options missing.

I think your average driver would A. Be entirely satisfied with the performance of a 330i, B. Scoff at spending $60k on a 3-series that's not even fully optioned which is exactly why we see so many 328/330 over 335/340. Also consider taxes and options. At $60k you're easily into 5-series territory.

It seems BMWs current scheme is to have essentially all the same base options on each trim of each model (exception 320i). So each trim is essentially just the engine. Then you have to add on the same packages which are similarly priced. Buying the higher trim doesn't really get you anything but a bigger engine.

Totally agree. If BMW kept the straight-six in the 320i or 328i, that would be the model I'd pick and forego the 340i, but because I'm infatuated with BMW's inline-sixes, I would strongly prefer a 340i not because it has more features or options or because it has more power but because it has that engine. Which pisses me off because I need to spend more just for engine alone, could care less about anything else.

It's stuff like this that make me miss the E90 days. The E90 on the lot could be base to loaded. I got an E90 330i MT w/RWD, no iDrive, no sunroof, leatherette with leg and side bolsters with xenons. Good luck trying to find a model like that with today's BMW's where you have to have iDrive and a sunroof.

Here in europe people rarely BTO BMWs you go to the dealer find whats on the lot...usually a 118d/320d/520d with M-sport bumper and basic amenities and pick one up on a cheap-ish lease in black or white. Unless you're foreign, in which case you have to buy in cash.

These things often don't have leather or even parking sensors. You get a basic economical engine, a BMW badge, basic iDrive/BT/AC and thats it.

Totally different here (U.S. & Canada). Every model at the dealer is loaded up even 320i. I wish dealers stocked up on bare bone models but they don't make any money so it's understandable why all the models are well-specced.

The only models that are BTO are M models and the 7er for the BMW Individual program, at least from the guys I'm close with on the forums. It just doesn't make sense to BTO a 3er or even a 5er.
 
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A.Goldberg

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Totally agree. If BMW kept the straight-six in the 320i or 328i, that would be the model I'd pick and forego the 340i, but because I'm infatuated with BMW's inline-sixes, I would strongly prefer a 340i not because it has more features or options or because it has more power but because it has that engine. Which pisses me off because I need to spend more just for engine alone, could care less about anything else

Well, between a 330 and 340 you're really not getting much more than a bigger engine and a few little options that still don't justify the massive price difference. Like DT said $50,000 for a reasonably equipped 4cyl 330i is crazy.
 

0388631

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Depends on the dealer really. The dealers here carry low end BMWs with few options to satisfy the first drivers out there who beg their parents to get them a "Bimmer." In a way, this is a very smart strategy. It's not that the dealership and in turn BMW doesn't make more money, it's that they get these kids hooked onto the brand so they always go for a BMW in the future. It's smart marketing. Side note, living in Canada you guys seem to get reamed hard for just about any expense, especially when the rate fluctuates hard.

There being no leather in the 340i shouldn't surprise you much, Goldberg. You can get it as an option in the 4 series, and even special order your dash to be wrapped in leather. Which looks rather snazzy if I do say so myself. It simply adds time to your factory order. It should come as no surprise that the use of non-leather in low to even high end models is rampant in the industry. Several years ago you could have bought a $85,000 MBZ and get stuck with MB Tex, and the leather option was an extra $1,200 (just throwing out an example). Lexus does the exact same, the scoundrels. I'm not sure about Audi, but I'll leave it up to their brand ambassador on the forum. :)

I have a sneaking suspicion the reason behind using faux leather is for longevity because more than not, people don't know how to care for their car interior, especially if it's real leather. I can imagine hoards of idiots out there wiping their leather seats down with Windex of all things.

It's been said, by a few people, that the 320 4 banger is a throwback (it's even throwback Thursday, puns are great) to the old E34 of the 80s. Makes sense, but I'd be interested in what people do to their cars once they exit warranty.
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Well, between a 330 and 340 you're really not getting much more than a bigger engine and a few little options that still don't justify the massive price difference. Like DT said $50,000 for a reasonably equipped 4cyl 330i is crazy.
Don't forget the new 3 series hatchback coming out. It seems BMW is very confused about their identity.
 

Alphazoid

macrumors 65816
Dec 5, 2014
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Lexus does the exact same, the scoundrels. I'm not sure about Audi, but I'll leave it up to their brand ambassador on the forum. :)

Lexus will tend to give you more here. Except the CT Hybrid. Its their way of competing with the Germans.

Audi will give you even less. Unless you ask for S-line models. Full cloth seats, alloys that look like they were designed 15 yrs ago, halogen headlamps. But you get BT/basic nav/AC and an Audi badge.
 
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A.Goldberg

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Jan 31, 2015
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Don't forget the new 3 series hatchback coming out. It seems BMW is very confused about their identity.

3 sedan, 3 wagon, 4 coupe, 4 convertible, 4 sedan, 3GT and now a 3/4 hatch back? Wow. The 3GT and 4GC are two of the most confused BMWs ever. The 3GT is just god awful ugly. The 4GC is what the 3 should have been.

Yeah, I'm really not surprised by the sensatec on a $50k+ car given what the industry has been doing. I'm just being hyperbolic. I presume it has to do with cost cutting obviously but also advances in pleather technologies haha. Faux leather today is much better than stuff even 10 years ago. Tbh I was however really surprised to see Lexus doing this of all companies.
 
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0388631

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Lexus will tend to give you more here. Except the CT Hybrid. Its their way of competing with the Germans.

Audi will give you even less. Unless you ask for S-line models. Full cloth seats, alloys that look like they were designed 15 yrs ago, halogen headlamps. But you get BT/basic nav/AC and an Audi badge.
Lexus is trying very hard to break into the Euro market. The Germans have been there for decades. I always laugh at people who say they're shocked as to why we Americans or Canadians love the Germans when they're everyday cars there. That is until they sit in a North American model and are blown away by it. Large, powerful engine, luxurious, supple ride, etc.

Years ago, a mate of mine from the UK, who's the owner of the software you're using on this forum (very well known chap in the software world), bought himself a 5 series BMW. 535d in M Sport trim. The reactions on their company forums were surprising to say the least. I didn't meddle in it, but I found the reactions from the Non-North Americans a bit funny. Granted it was the M wheels on the E60 in Estoril Blue, IIRC. Suffice to say, people have a different perception of what's normal.

If I saw a BMW here with cloth seats, I'd first wonder if there was a secret ZHP model lurking on the company's US facing site, and if not, I'd be surprised. That wouldn't fly here.
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3 sedan, 3 wagon, 4 coupe, 4 convertible, 4 sedan, 3GT and now a 3/4 hatch back? Wow. The 3GT and 4GC are two of the most confused BMWs ever. The 3GT is just god awful ugly. The 4GC is what the 3 should have been.

Yeah, I'm really not surprised by the sensatec on a $50k+ car given what the industry has been doing. I'm just being hyperbolic. I presume it has to do with cost cutting obviously but also advances in pleather technologies haha. Faux leather today is much better than stuff even 10 years ago. Tbh I was however really surprised to see Lexus doing this of all companies.

Yep. Thought when the 4GC came out years ago I was enamored with its lines and beauty within. That honeymoon phase dropped like the quality of the Rio Olympics. When I bought my GL550 several years back, it came standard with MB Tex. Admittedly, I had never heard of the material because prior to that, any MBZ I'd gotten always had leather as an option already picked out. I assumed it was leather until I asked the salesman why MBZ branded leather when no company had before. He explained at great detail what it actually was. I ended up coughing up extra for the actual leather, and then low-balled them during negotiations to get the car cheaper. I saved at least 15K. Looking at the GLS now, it's leather standard. But prior to this at the time, it was MB Tex and then quilted leather.

In Canada, Audi gives you the best value in terms of standard equipment (no halogens, leather standard). Second is Mercedes, while BMW and Porsche are the worst offenders - nickel/dime you for everything.

MBZ doesn't. They used to here. Now a lot of options come lumped into tiered packages. Porsche nickel and dimes. I thought AU was taking the piss with me a month back until I looked at the configurator myself. There's a lot of aesthetic ******** Porsche offers. But I'm a firm believer of them doing that simply to deter customers to go insane with options. Keep it simple, keep it clean.

If my children were older and I didn't want that glorious 930 slantnose, I'd buy a CPO 997 Turbo mkII. I'm not going to make this a dick measuring contest in terms of wealth, but I wouldn't pay the money for a brand spanking new 991 Turbo mkII. There's a huge cost difference. You can get an optioned out 997 mkI or mkII with around 15-30K miles, PDK or not, for around 50-70K USD now. Which is a fantastic deal IMO. The cars look brand new, and newer Porsches don't cost an arm and a leg to maintain like they used to. Plus, the 997 generation is exquisite in looks, in and out.

The 997 is one of the few cars of its caliber and size I can actually fit in due to height. Plus, it'll be a good investment down the line if its value goes up. How far could the 997s bottom out?
 
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2298754

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Audi will give you even less. Unless you ask for S-line models. Full cloth seats, alloys that look like they were designed 15 yrs ago, halogen headlamps. But you get BT/basic nav/AC and an Audi badge.
Yeah, here in the US, Porsche and Mercedes are some of the worst offenders out there.

Even on a $60k+ GLE/GLS, HID headlamps are optional. On the X5, BMW gives you pano roof and Bi-Xenons standard. On the CLA, halogens and pleather are stock, but the equivalent Audi A3 comes with leather, HIDs, and a pano roof on the base crappy model too.

Porsche options just make me laugh. $1500 sunroof option on a $80k Cayenne? Heated seats? USB adapter? All options. Even Porsche comes with partial-leather seats these days. They charge $$$ for the full leather PLUS the leather dash/door/trims.
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The 997 is one of the few cars of its caliber and size I can actually fit in due to height. Plus, it'll be a good investment down the line if its value goes up. How far could the 997s bottom out?
Too late. 997s have already started to go up in price. You missed the market by 2-3 years, especially the late model ones with the 6MT

CPO 911.1 Turbos are getting closer to $130k right now if you look hard enough.
 

0388631

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Too late. 997s have already started to go up in price. You missed the market by 2-3 years.

CPO 911.1 Turbos are getting closer to $130k right now if you look hard enough.
You missed the mark where I said if my kids were older. Plus, I don't think my wife would be too pleased I got a Porsche unless I told her it was a gift to her.
 
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