The Car Thread ... !

[bunnspecial]

Unfortunately, the Miata suffered from the same "bloat" as all other cars, and while it's easily one of the smallest production cars on the road today(or at least ones that you'll actually encounter-it's a rare site that I see a Lotus, for example) I'd still argue that it's gotten a bit too large and heavy for its own good. The current gen is nearing 6 feet wide and is pushing 2400lbs-again what I'd call large for a 2-seater.

It also doesn't matter what suspension tricks you use or how much power you throw at a car-weight is still CRITICAL in this class of car, and there's no way that you can really make up for it being too heavy.

We're not likely to see any non-exotic get back down to the 2000lb range, or at least not in the US, though. Safety and emissions systems weigh too much, and you need exotic materials to make up for that. The Morgan +4 is still there, as well as the Morgan Roadster, but again we can't get new ones here and likely won't ever be able to again.

 

[0388631]

It was some Mazda engineer who said it was easier to add power than it was to reduce weight. I believe it.

 

[bunnspecial]

It was some Mazda engineer who said it was easier to add power than it was to reduce weight. I believe it.

Oh, definitely. Power is easy to come by these days, but cars in the US these days HAVE to carry so much baggage that it's hard to get the weight down. Heck, when I bought new interior door "cards" for my MG they came in a flat package about 6" thick(cards for both doors) and probably weigh 5lbs each-they're not much more than a sheet of masonite with some vinyl tacked on. The entire MG door from outside handle to inside handle is about 3" thick. I'd bet the last door panel I pulled on a modern car was probably 30lbs, and was 4" thick by itself(basically a solid molded piece of high density foam with pockets, handles, and whatever else formed in to it).

A Morgan with no airbags and ash floorboards just doesn't fly with US safety regulations...

Still, adding more power doesn't change the fact that weight upsets a LOT of the dynamics of these cars this small and every pound added takes away from the "smiles per mile" factor.

On another roadster note, though, I'm talking to someone about buying his S2000. It's a 2003 that he bought new and it's been his daily driver since then. He's already bought a replacement for it, but it has 296,000 miles on it and he's going to "retire" it when it hits 300K. It's actually quite a fascinating car to me-he's maintained it, but not babied it. It's never had ANY engine work aside from a few sets of plugs and coils, and it's still on its original clutch(although a lot of that is probably due to 2/3 or better of those miles being highway miles). To me, it would be an interesting car to own.

 

[Huntn]

Unfortunately, the Miata suffered from the same "bloat" as all other cars, and while it's easily one of the smallest production cars on the road today(or at least ones that you'll actually encounter-it's a rare site that I see a Lotus, for example) I'd still argue that it's gotten a bit too large and heavy for its own good. The current gen is nearing 6 feet wide and is pushing 2400lbs-again what I'd call large for a 2-seater.

It also doesn't matter what suspension tricks you use or how much power you throw at a car-weight is still CRITICAL in this class of car, and there's no way that you can really make up for it being too heavy.

We're not likely to see any non-exotic get back down to the 2000lb range, or at least not in the US, though. Safety and emissions systems weigh too much, and you need exotic materials to make up for that. The Morgan +4 is still there, as well as the Morgan Roadster, but again we can't get new ones here and likely won't ever be able to again.

I’m not a Miata history expert by any means , but my understanding is that the Miata weight was trimmed in the 2016 model and as I remember, the Miata is half the weight of something like a Z. My metric for comparison is the Fiat Spider (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_124_Sport_Spider) which weighs about 2000 lbs. The 2015 Miata weighed 2600, the 2016 weighs 2300, so been adjusted in the right direction, and it has more horsepower than my Fiat so it drives like a dream.

From my perspective, in this class, it’s the best. I won’t call it a muscle car, because it’s not, but it’s a heck of a lot of fun to drive.

 

[SactoGuy18]

I think until more exotic structural materials (such as composites) get cheaper, 2400 lbs. for the current Miata is pretty close to the limit you can do with a two-seater sports car that still meets current safety standards. The use of composites could cut the weight by 100-150 kg., but the cost of the composites are just ridiculous.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

Its technically a motorcycle but I found the Elio three wheeler online while looking for electric cars. It isn't electric but gets 84MPG and looks super fun.

https://www.eliomotors.com/about-elio/

 

[millerj123]

Its technically a motorcycle but I found the Elio three wheeler online while looking for electric cars. It isn't electric but gets 84MPG and looks super fun.

https://www.eliomotors.com/about-elio/

I'm on their waiting list. I'll actually be surprised if I get to buy mine.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

I'm on their waiting list. I'll actually be surprised if I get to buy mine.

Yeah, I just read how they almost went broke and then overstock.com saved them. They say the will deliver the cars in the Fall of 2019. Good luck!

 

[bunnspecial]

I think until more exotic structural materials (such as composites) get cheaper, 2400 lbs. for the current Miata is pretty close to the limit you can do with a two-seater sports car that still meets current safety standards. The use of composites could cut the weight by 100-150 kg., but the cost of the composites are just ridiculous.

The Elise does it without going any more exotic than fiberglass for the body shell, but it's no longer sold in the US since it lacks "smart" airbags.

There again, Morgan has held the +4 right at 1 ton for the pas 60 years or better, and the most "exotic" material is the ash floorboards. The roadster is even lighter than the +4(despite being a 6 cylinder), and I don't know if they've used any exotics to get it there. Despite being a relatively new model, it LOOKS like a Morgan and honestly not that different from a +4. The +8 is the big of the line at over 1100kg, but I suspect a lot of that weight is in the engine, along with the suspension needed to support that much more.

There again, though, forget trying to sell new Morgans in the US. The propane "alternative fuel" trick quit working a long time ago, and I'm not sure if airbags or even an option.

Also, creature comfort norms push weights up too. At 2400lbs, I suspect that Mazda could ditch power steering on the Miata and still have a perfectly driveable car(and save ~100lbs in the process) but a car without P/S would be a VERY tough sell these days. I actually prefer a small sports car/roadster to not have p/s-the steering feel is SO much better and "direct" feeling, and the only time the wheel is legitimately difficult to turn is if the car is stationary(a bad habit anyway even with p/s as it makes the pressures go through the roof).

 

[Apple fanboy]

The Elise does it without going any more exotic than fiberglass for the body shell, but it's no longer sold in the US since it lacks "smart" airbags.

There again, Morgan has held the +4 right at 1 ton for the pas 60 years or better, and the most "exotic" material is the ash floorboards. The roadster is even lighter than the +4(despite being a 6 cylinder), and I don't know if they've used any exotics to get it there. Despite being a relatively new model, it LOOKS like a Morgan and honestly not that different from a +4. The +8 is the big of the line at over 1100kg, but I suspect a lot of that weight is in the engine, along with the suspension needed to support that much more.

There again, though, forget trying to sell new Morgans in the US. The propane "alternative fuel" trick quit working a long time ago, and I'm not sure if airbags or even an option.

Also, creature comfort norms push weights up too. At 2400lbs, I suspect that Mazda could ditch power steering on the Miata and still have a perfectly driveable car(and save ~100lbs in the process) but a car without P/S would be a VERY tough sell these days. I actually prefer a small sports car/roadster to not have p/s-the steering feel is SO much better and "direct" feeling, and the only time the wheel is legitimately difficult to turn is if the car is stationary(a bad habit anyway even with p/s as it makes the pressures go through the roof).

I think I know how Morgan keep the weight off.

I'm sure there's something missing, but I can't quite put my finger on it....

 

[44267547]

With manuals becoming more obsolete every year, (Audi A4/A5 being an example of no longer producing manuals in the States), I do hope the new GT500 is not DCT only, but Offered in _both_ variants, which some discussion is indicating the GT500 may be DCT only. My theory is that the ZL1 and Hellcat both Manual options, so hopefully Ford competes on this level. The Manual option seems necessary for a car like the GT500 in certain aspects. Also, allegedly production starts late Fall 2019, Which I’m Assuming Barrett-Jackson will Debut a demo model from Ford or auction off a charity model to the highest bidder in January 2020. I’m Also guesstimating the GT500 price range will be somewhere around $75,000-ish.

 

[D.T.]

With manuals becoming more obsolete every year, (Audi A4/A5 being an example of no longer producing manuals in the States), I do hope the new GT500 is not DCT only, but Offered in _both_ variants, which some discussion is indicating the GT500 may be DCT only. My theory is that the ZL1 and Hellcat both Manual options, so hopefully Ford competes on this level. The Manual option seems necessary for a car like the GT500 in certain aspects. Also, allegedly production starts late Fall 2019, Which I’m Assuming Barrett-Jackson will Debut a demo model from Ford or auction off a charity model to the highest bidder in January 2020. I’m Also guesstimating the GT500 price range will be somewhere around $75,000-ish.

In a private side chat, we've got someone ITK with a direct line to the drivetrain team. They're indicating the car will be DCT only, with everything engineered around that single transmission - not unlike the GT-R - so LC, engine design characteristics, etc., all with a single design target of the DCT. If it was a traditional automatic, maybe there would be enough performance/efficiency differences with a manual, but a DCT is efficient, fast, allows extremely granular control - think: clutchless manual that performs the shifts faster than any manual driver but gives the driver complete control.

FYI, the Hellcat Redeye is ONLY available with an automatic.

 

[RootBeerMan]

Just saw this at Grand Tour Nation. Apparently the supremely funny car guy, Jeremy Clarkson is in the US and has had the opportunity to drive the new Corvette ZR1, a really sweet supercar. Pics at the link.

https://www.grandtournation.com/8292/jeremy-clarkson-driving-the-new-corvette-zr1-in-america/

 

[0388631]

Oh, definitely. Power is easy to come by these days, but cars in the US these days HAVE to carry so much baggage that it's hard to get the weight down. Heck, when I bought new interior door "cards" for my MG they came in a flat package about 6" thick(cards for both doors) and probably weigh 5lbs each-they're not much more than a sheet of masonite with some vinyl tacked on. The entire MG door from outside handle to inside handle is about 3" thick. I'd bet the last door panel I pulled on a modern car was probably 30lbs, and was 4" thick by itself(basically a solid molded piece of high density foam with pockets, handles, and whatever else formed in to it).

I definitely believe it. Don't forget the ever increasing requirements in car design. Higher sills, thicker pillars. Granted today you're more likely to survive and not be injured in a head on crash in a new car that hits an old car from the 80s or even early 90s.

In a private side chat, we've got someone ITK with a direct line to the drivetrain team. They're indicating the car will be DCT only, with everything engineered around that single transmission - not unlike the GT-R - so LC, engine design characteristics, etc., all with a single design target of the DCT. If it was a traditional automatic, maybe there would be enough performance/efficiency differences with a manual, but a DCT is efficient, fast, allows extremely granular control - think: clutchless manual that performs the shifts faster than any manual driver but gives the driver complete control.

FYI, the Hellcat Redeye is ONLY available with an automatic.

The only issue I have DCTs is the programming if it isn't evolving to the driver's driving style or if it's clunky from the get-go. Though this is usually a problem in the city at low speeds.

But... I agree with you. I like stickshift as much as the next person, but ripping through gears or going down in gears at lightening fast speed is very fun.

 

[44267547]

Just saw this at Grand Tour Nation. Apparently the supremely funny car guy, Jeremy Clarkson is in the US and has had the opportunity to drive the new Corvette ZR1, a really sweet supercar. Pics at the link.

https://www.grandtournation.com/8292/jeremy-clarkson-driving-the-new-corvette-zr1-in-america/

For a $150,000 sports car, what’s there not to like about the ZR1? Except.....that wing though....I mean, I Understand its meant to provide downforce, but aesthetically, it just doesn’t work for me, at all. But all things considered in almost an 800 HP car, the ZR1 will bring the driving experience. Its a stunning car and I would like to see one in person. I have Watched a few owner videos on their perspectives/experiences, and its been nothing but praises in the performance and braking aspects.

 

[Mr Kram]

I recently bought a few cars.

2018 SQ5

2018 ZR2 - Currently being built.

2011 (997.2) Turbo S Cab - Mods to come

 

[44267547]

I recently bought a

That ZR2 is just awesome and it just screams ‘Get off my lawn’. I’m Not much of a truck guy myself, but that has be the most menacing looking truck on the road, and I do enjoy all blacked out look. (For the Record, I dig the the tow hook, side step mounts and light bar attached.)

If there was another truck as an alternative,it would be the Ford Raptor, but I honestly think the ZR2 is more in line with my preferences of what I would want for in a truck.

 

[AustinIllini]

SQ5 is pretty great.

 

[Mr Kram]

That ZR2 is just awesome and it just screams ‘Get off my lawn’. I’m Not much of a truck guy myself, but that has be the most menacing looking truck on the road, and I do enjoy all blacked out look. (For the Record, I dig the the tow hook, side step mounts and light bar attached.)

If there was another truck as an alternative,it would be the Ford Raptor, but I honestly think the ZR2 is more in line with my preferences of what I would want for in a truck.

I seriously considered the Raptor, but at the end of the day, it was too big to drive around the city. I also intend to give this truck to my daughter in 3 years so it will much more manageable for her. My only “gripe” is I wish it had a little more power. I recently installed a tune to give it more low end grunt, I’m about ready to add the Mallet supercharger. I also wish that I could lift it a bit to fit at least a 33” tire, but I won’t sacrifice the comfort of the DSSV shocks.

SQ5 is pretty great.

Thank you. Technically, this is my wife’s daily and she’s very happy. I’m waiting for a tune to come out for it and it will be perfect.

 

[44267547]

I seriously considered the Raptor, but at the end of the day, it was too big to drive around the city. I also intend to give this truck to my daughter in 3 years so it will much more manageable for her. My only “gripe” is I wish it had a little more power. I recently installed a tune to give it more low end grunt, I’m about ready to add the Mallet supercharger. I also wish that I could lift it a bit to fit at least a 33” tire, but I won’t sacrifice the comfort of the DSSV shocks.

The Raptor a big truck by all means, and it sits substantially high off the ground as well. My biggest complaint about the Raptor is the ‘over decaled’ look across the body. It’s rumored that the Raptor is to be upgraded to a V-8 possibly in the future from the 3.5 TwinTurbo eco-boost. (Which I have experience with the T.T 3.5, Which is a great engine and very torquey), but I would welcome a V8 for a truck of that magnitude. But the Raptor is also priced higher over the Zr2 Around $52,000.

But back to the ZR2, The only thing I have read about is that lacks some power, but if you plan on adding a supercharger, That will change everything. But for $40,000, the ZR2 is a lot of truck for the money, especially the way comes with the factory with the ride height, tires, and any additional options/packages you can add or plan on adding. But I give credit to GM for making the ZR2 theme more introspective, it really is a great looking truck.

 

[Mr Kram]

The Raptor a big truck by all means, and it sits substantially high off the ground as well. My biggest complaint about the Raptor is the ‘over decaled’ look across the body. It’s rumored that the Raptor is to be upgraded to a V-8 possibly in the future from the 3.5 TwinTurbo eco-boost. (Which I have experience with the T.T 3.5, Which is a great engine and very torquey), but I would welcome a V8 for a truck of that magnitude. But the Raptor is also priced higher over the Zr2 Around $52,000.

But back to the ZR2, The only thing I have read about is that lacks some power, but if you plan on adding a supercharger, That will change everything. But for $40,000, the ZR2 is a lot of truck for the money, especially the way comes with the factory with the ride height, tires, and any additional options/packages you can add or plan on adding. But I give credit to GM for making the ZR2 theme more introspective, it really is a great looking truck.

a nicely optioned raptor is near $70k and that doesn't include about a $5k markup if you plan to buy in CA. as for the decals, they can be ordered without them or just taken off after the fact. I also don't care for that look. I would be surprised if they went back to a V8 as the first generation raptors had the 6.2L V8. I wonder how much more they can squeeze out of the 5.0. guessing it's just easier to turn up the eco boost.

my ZR2 has every option besides accessories and the sticker was a tad over $47k. however, there are decent discounts out there, more so now that the 2019s are showing up. I love this truck and don't regret my decision, but because it's competing in the mid-sized market, it doesn't have all the fluff that can be found in a full size truck. sure, it would thousands to the price, but I'd personally would pay for it, ie. keyless entry and start/stop, fully adjustable seats with memory, homelink garage door opener, adaptive cruise control, power sliding rear window, etc.

 

[0388631]

That ZR2 looks nice. I love how the front bumper gives way to the wheel well.

 

[AustinIllini]

The only issue I have DCTs is the programming if it isn't evolving to the driver's driving style or if it's clunky from the get-go. Though this is usually a problem in the city at low speeds.

But... I agree with you. I like stickshift as much as the next person, but ripping through gears or going down in gears at lightening fast speed is very fun.

You have a good point about the DCT. They are kind of crappy around town. The A4 in particular kind of chugs between gears. They've done a good job of making it as minimally intrusive as possible but it's still a little weird.

Traditional autos are coming back in a big way though. The Honda 10 speed is quite good based on reviews and not all ZFs are terrible.

 

[0388631]

You have a good point about the DCT. They are kind of crappy around town. The A4 in particular kind of chugs between gears. They've done a good job of making it as minimally intrusive as possible but it's still a little weird.

Traditional autos are coming back in a big way though. The Honda 10 speed is quite good based on reviews and not all ZFs are terrible.

The Golf R DCT is really nice around town, at least to me. Not sure if it's tuned differently.

The ZF8 is a God in the auto transmission world. The ZF9 was terrible. No idea what the ZF10 is. Your post is the first time I'm hearing about it. I suspect the CVT was chosen by Honda as an interim while this ZF10 was being developed and tested. I can't imagine Honda building out CVTs in the long term. Their long term reliability overlapped by individual driving styles offers a lot of room for bad things to happen.

If I had a legitimate reason to own a Golf R aside from a weekend fun car, I'd buy it in an instant. Probably DCT and slap on an authorized APR tune. That thing is a rocket with a good stage 2 tune.

It's like me buying a truck. I'd love a Raptor. Loud and aggressive. But I also prefer sleeping on our awesome bed rather than the couch for a month. You can maybe one day have a lot of money, but if you buy stupid stuff like an oil-rich Saudi, you're just wasting money without getting real enjoyment and use out of something. Plus, those guys don't have taste in anything. They're like rich hillbillies of the ME.

 

[AustinIllini]

The Golf R DCT is really nice around town, at least to me. Not sure if it's tuned differently.

The ZF8 is a God in the auto transmission world. The ZF9 was terrible. No idea what the ZF10 is. Your post is the first time I'm hearing about it. I suspect the CVT was chosen by Honda as an interim while this ZF10 was being developed and tested. I can't imagine Honda building out CVTs in the long term. Their long term reliability overlapped by individual driving styles offers a lot of room for bad things to happen.

Oh, sorry. It's not a ZF10. It's actually a Honda developed and manufactured 10 speed. CVTs are pretty much the worst. Our CR-V has one that is tolerable considering the point of the car, but yeah give me a traditional auto any day of the week.