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Reason BMW or MBZ pipes sound is better firewall insulation reducing engine noise, overall refinements to reduce NVH, and the use of turbochargers which reduce noise dramatically. Far be it from me to condone this, but in most cases you can introduce a delete somewhere on certain Mercs and BMWs and no one would be the wiser unless you do an emissions test. The next 3 series will be topping out at nearly 390 HP stock, and that's with BMW fudging the engine output. It's going to be higher. Even the current B58 powerplant in the 340 sounds a hell of a lot better than the M3 and M4's S55. The MPPSK should increase output on the upcoming 3ers engine while letting it be louder.

I hate any artificial sound enhancement, though physical pipes that bring real engine noise into the cabin are less egregious then silly stereo sound effects. Cars can be made to sound good without faking it - the sound enhancements are lazy/cheating. To be fair, the same goes for overly-loud exhausts on street cars. "Loud" engine noises are not necessarily "good" engine noises.

At the end of the day, if you want an electric car that can be repaired easily god forbid you get into an accident or just not have massive flaws, go for the Chevy. I wouldn't recommend a Tesla to anyone. Not now at least. I don't trust Mickey Mouse operations. I'd be willing to bet when and if the Chinese copycat (see: Steal) Tesla's IP, they're going to create a better version all around for less money per unit than Tesla.

I share your concerns about Tesla. I think Musk has a point when he says establishing a new product in the market is hard and requires taking some big risks - but I don't want to purchase/drive an experiment.

As for the Chinese competitors, China's safety record with automobiles is abysmal, there are valid moral arguments for not supporting their auto industry, and the cars are cheaper because the people building them make nothing by our standards. So I wouldn't necessarily feel better buying one of those.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
Problem with electric cars at the moment and the foreseeable future is how hot the batteries get. I've posted about this once or twice in here, but I drove a Model S P100D around very basic twisties near work and it quickly heated up. The beauty of a well maintained ICE engine is that it won't heat up without considerable heat via weather. FWIW, the day I drove that Model S it was fairly cold for the coastline, about 40-43* F. I cannot fathom what type of temperatures the pack would experience in a typical summer much more inland where it goes well past 100* F. That's a 60 degree difference.

Reason BMW or MBZ pipes sound is better firewall insulation reducing engine noise, overall refinements to reduce NVH, and the use of turbochargers which reduce noise dramatically. Far be it from me to condone this, but in most cases you can introduce a delete somewhere on certain Mercs and BMWs and no one would be the wiser unless you do an emissions test. The next 3 series will be topping out at nearly 390 HP stock, and that's with BMW fudging the engine output. It's going to be higher. Even the current B58 powerplant in the 340 sounds a hell of a lot better than the M3 and M4's S55. The MPPSK should increase output on the upcoming 3ers engine while letting it be louder.

At the end of the day, if you want an electric car that can be repaired easily god forbid you get into an accident or just not have massive flaws, go for the Chevy. I wouldn't recommend a Tesla to anyone. Not now at least. I don't trust Mickey Mouse operations. I'd be willing to bet when and if the Chinese copycat (see: Steal) Tesla's IP, they're going to create a better version all around for less money per unit than Tesla.

And I say that not because I think Elon Musk is a miserable ****, but because Tesla just isn't quality. People need to stop drinking the KoolAid.
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S7 or RS7.
Have you had the chance to try the Performance 3 to see if it is any better?
 
Speaking of that truck, mod it yet?

So far:
ADD Stealth Fighter Front Bumper, 30" Rigid Light Bar, 6" Rigid Combos in the corners, Smittybilt 12k Winch
ADD Honey Badger Rear Bumper, 4" Rigid Floods
Nfab Podium Steps
589 Fab Rear Shock Skids
589 Fab 1" Level Kit
589 Fab Under Hood Air Compressor Mount with ARB Single High Output Compressor
S Pod Bantam Control Switch
Trifecta Tune
Drop in K&N
Black Lugs
Colorado Redline Badges
Chevy All Weather Floor Liners
Suntek CXP Tint

Still waiting for the new lift kits to come out so I can stuff in some 33s without trimming. I have some Peak lift springs (made by Eibach) coming in and I may combine that with a body lift to achieve what I want. Then I'll get some Method 701 wheels with 305 K02s.

Looking to delete the sport bar and lights up. Probably going to go with a KC roof rack with some floods in the front and sides with some chase lights out back. Hopefully, there's enough room for some Rotopax of gas and water along with some Maxtrax recovery boards. Lastly, I'd want a hard tonneau cover.

I am still on the fence about supercharging since this truck will go to my daughter in about 3 years as her first vehicle. Don't want her to get into too much trouble. Still might slap on an exhaust, but haven't found one that sounds good yet.
 
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The biggest problem with the Deville/DTS is that they drive the wrong wheels.

I'll take a Town Car any day-a dead-reliable SOHC 4.6L V8 driving the rear wheels and riding on air suspension. They really ARE like riding on a cloud...

BTW, check GVWR tags on the Town Car and you'll find that they actually have more weight over the rear wheels than over the front. I've never had any trouble getting one moving in the snow, and you have the advantage of what is-IMO-more predictable handling from RWD when the inevitable skid does occur.
 
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I share your concerns about Tesla. I think Musk has a point when he says establishing a new product in the market is hard and requires taking some big risks - but I don't want to purchase/drive an experiment.

As for the Chinese competitors, China's safety record with automobiles is abysmal, there are valid moral arguments for not supporting their auto industry, and the cars are cheaper because the people building them make nothing by our standards. So I wouldn't necessarily feel better buying one of those.

Once again you're missing the point others are making. China's quality may be abysmal, but so is Teslas. Tesla has had many, many years to fix their problems, but they still appear. Often.

Have you had the chance to try the Performance 3 to see if it is any better?

No, but I want to. That P100D belongs to an employee of mine who had just bought it and asked if I wanted to take it for a spin. They were with me and gave me permission to gun it. It isn't a bad car, but it's grossly overpriced for what it is. If someone's spending $110K+ of their money, there shouldn't be gaps in panels, paint defects or worse, motor problems needing constant replacements. Tesla would be in better hands if it were owned by a consortium.

While the big iPad in the center is cool, it poses safety problems and other minor issues down the road. And I think most of us in here would prefer a physical button or knob to manipulate over a digital pad. My opinion of the Model S's interior is rather grim, too. However, I feel that if Tesla put some R&D into better interior materials and design, my opinion would change.

This isn't me against electrics. I think electrics are cool. I spent most of the late 1980s and early 1990s focused on electric vehicles and renewable energy. There's a few major gaps in electric autos that need to be trimmed down.

Would I ever own one? Maybe. Probably not in the next 10-15 years. At the end of the day, I prefer ICE. We're going to see more efficient and hybridized ICE engines in the coming decade versus more electrics.


Right now if I were shopping for the stereotypical older gentleman's car from the Germans, I'd probably go for the Audi A8 or S8. The S class is nice, but it's very dated at this point. The Audi offers luxury and a high level of tech, and a plethora of safety and comfort features that blow my mind. The BMW 7 isn't bad, but I don't see anything special about it. Plus, the Audi is fairly innocuous compared to the MBZ star or BMW's grille that is the size of two dogs.
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I am still on the fence about supercharging since this truck will go to my daughter in about 3 years as her first vehicle. Don't want her to get into too much trouble. Still might slap on an exhaust, but haven't found one that sounds good yet.
Yeah I'd skip the supercharger. For some reason I thought your kids were older than that. If I were 16 again and my dad gave me a monster of a truck, you bet your ass I'd be driving and hooning it around. I knew girls in my youth who'd drive more maniacally than the guys. Several decades later, they're the same. The concept of us men being the only crazy drivers is rubbish. :p Actually bumped into a girl I knew back then a few weeks back at a store. She was with her kids and I joked about their mom being a nutty driver back in the day. They, like all kids so, spilled the beans about her still being a Nascar driver, so to speak. I thought it was hilarious.

That said, I don't know how much horsepower the truck has, but a slow car or a large-ish truck isn't bad for a first car. I mention the truck because you need to drive them more carefully than a regular car and it teaches better situational awareness, IMO.

Point is, how you drive in your youth is how you drive for the rest of your life.
 
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There are still no dealers near me that sell Genesis. Those few dealers that have them are unwilling to discount G70s from MSRP, so too close to Audi discounted prices to make a case.

There is only two dealers that sell the Genesis in my area, one north of my city and then one in my city, and honestly, I never see the Genesis brand on the road. Another member in this thread commented that they see the Genesis brand quite frequently in Texas, and I’m not sure why consumers don’t generally flock towards the Genesis brand, but I still think Audi is a great alternative, especially the sport hatchback.

The biggest problem with the Deville/DTS is that they drive the wrong wheels.

I'll take a Town Car any day-a dead-reliable SOHC 4.6L V8 driving the rear wheels and riding on air suspension. They really ARE like riding on a cloud...

BTW, check GVWR tags on the Town Car and you'll find that they actually have more weight over the rear wheels than over the front. I've never had any trouble getting one moving in the snow, and you have the advantage of what is-IMO-more predictable handling from RWD when the inevitable skid does occur.

Yes, the Lincoln town car is a solid vehicle. I drove one in the past, and I drove the Crown Victoria P.I. for years, and probably two of my favorite cars that I have ridden in terms of comfort, reliability and the 4.6L was potent
Enough to ‘move’ when you wanted it to.

Speaking of the Lincoln/Mercury brand, there actually was a Mercury Marauder that was sold in my city not that long ago, black, clean, low miles, I’m surprised how quick it sold to, but they were rare, and quite distinct over the Interceptor. To bad they were so limited in production, I always liked the Panther Platform.
 
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The 32V DOHC 4.6L used in the Marauder wasn't known for reliability. although admittedly my dad had three of them over the years(all in Lincoln Continentals, which uses an unusual transverse mounted arrangement for that engine to support it being front wheel drive) and didn't have any trouble in probably 200K combined miles...

It's a shame, as all of the other 4.6L modulars are effectively bullet proof. I know one of my mom's Town Cars went through a bout of throwing COPs, and I got to where I could change one in about 5 minutes-I'd just pull the misfire code to see what cylinder it was, change the COP, and it would be good to go.
 
I now have a current pet peeve (again): too many cars are using way too low profile tires. My 2016 Scion iM uses 225/45R17 tires, and like my old Honda Fit, if you don't inflate them to the right pressure, you feel EVERY bump on the road. :eek: Come on, leave the really low-profile tires for truly sporting vehicles, for gosh sakes!
 
Chevrolet announced a new "RST" trim package for the Colorado. I was hoping they would finally put the 5.3L V8 in one (like the previous ZQ8 Colorado/Canyon), but sadly it doesn't look like it.
 
Once again you're missing the point others are making. China's quality may be abysmal, but so is Teslas. Tesla has had many, many years to fix their problems, but they still appear. Often.

When I said Musk had a point about taking risks, I wasn't referring to build quality - I was referring to the entire market for electric vehicles. It is still an emergent market with a lot of unknowns, and Tesla is burning through capital in the hopes that just by staying alive and churning out cars they will work the kinks out and become the leader in electric cars - while more established carmakers or competing electric car startups take a more cautious approach or are undercapitalized compared with Tesla.

So I think I am agreeing with you - with the caveat that Tesla's poor build quality might not be a deal-breaker in the short-medium term if they can get a lock on the early adopter market for electrics. But that time is nearly up and they will need to start building better, more reliable cars soon if they hope to survive.

I'm certainly no apologist for Tesla - I would not buy one of their cars at this point (even if I could afford one - and few middle class people can at this point).
 
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When I said Musk had a point about taking risks, I wasn't referring to build quality - I was referring to the entire market for electric vehicles. It is still an emergent market with a lot of unknowns, and Tesla is burning through capital in the hopes that just by staying alive and churning out cars they will work the kinks out and become the leader in electric cars - while more established carmakers or competing electric car startups take a more cautious approach or are undercapitalized compared with Tesla.

So I think I am agreeing with you - with the caveat that Tesla's poor build quality might not be a deal-breaker in the short-medium term if they can get a lock on the early adopter market for electrics. But that time is nearly up and they will need to start building better, more reliable cars soon if they hope to survive.

I'm certainly no apologist for Tesla - I would not buy one of their cars at this point (even if I could afford one - and few middle class people can at this point).
Except given that the Model S, ignoring prior cars by Tesla, has been around since 2012 and still doesn't have the mass market penetration Tesla wanted by now, six years later with their flagship automobile, I'd say their efforts are still in vein. They've been having build quality and reliability issues, and still haven't worked out a way to get repairs done on time.

Furthermore, with tax credits winding down, people are going to think twice spending the kind of money on a questionable vehicle. Think it was Goldberg who pointed out a year ago that the Model 3 isn't the dream machine the masses thought it would be, because you'd have to get a very basic vehicle to get it at its price point. Customers who chose a plethora of options would get first order of their vehicles over base customers.


And, as I said a year ago, Tesla would be better in the hands of the Germans. I also never insinuated you were a Tesla apologist. At the end of the day, blazing fast or not, you're paying for a poor service network, higher than normal insurance rates, abysmal build quality, alpha grade software.

It'd be wiser to get two fully loaded Honda Accord EXs for the Model S with some options.
 
Except given that the Model S, ignoring prior cars by Tesla, has been around since 2012 and still doesn't have the mass market penetration Tesla wanted by now, six years later with their flagship automobile, I'd say their efforts are still in vein. They've been having build quality and reliability issues, and still haven't worked out a way to get repairs done on time.

Furthermore, with tax credits winding down, people are going to think twice spending the kind of money on a questionable vehicle. Think it was Goldberg who pointed out a year ago that the Model 3 isn't the dream machine the masses thought it would be, because you'd have to get a very basic vehicle to get it at its price point. Customers who chose a plethora of options would get first order of their vehicles over base customers.


And, as I said a year ago, Tesla would be better in the hands of the Germans. I also never insinuated you were a Tesla apologist. At the end of the day, blazing fast or not, you're paying for a poor service network, higher than normal insurance rates, abysmal build quality, alpha grade software.

It'd be wiser to get two fully loaded Honda Accord EXs for the Model S with some options.

I think you may be right. I can't afford a Tesla, so it's all academic to me. When we see a good-quality, reliable electric car with a 300-mile range for under $25,000 out the door...then we're talking. But that is years away.

As for same-cost alternatives...for what most Model S sedans cost I could buy any brand-new sub-$30k car and have enough left over to buy an interesting classic / future classic car of my choice (W12 Phaeton? 1990s Bentley Turbo? Jag XK? M3/5? Various muscle cars? So many options) PLUS maintenance money that will keep both cars on the road for years. That's a no-brainer.
 
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Yeah I'd skip the supercharger. For some reason I thought your kids were older than that. If I were 16 again and my dad gave me a monster of a truck, you bet your ass I'd be driving and hooning it around. I knew girls in my youth who'd drive more maniacally than the guys. Several decades later, they're the same. The concept of us men being the only crazy drivers is rubbish. :p Actually bumped into a girl I knew back then a few weeks back at a store. She was with her kids and I joked about their mom being a nutty driver back in the day. They, like all kids so, spilled the beans about her still being a Nascar driver, so to speak. I thought it was hilarious.

That said, I don't know how much horsepower the truck has, but a slow car or a large-ish truck isn't bad for a first car. I mention the truck because you need to drive them more carefully than a regular car and it teaches better situational awareness, IMO.

Point is, how you drive in your youth is how you drive for the rest of your life.

Well, my son is 21. There’s a little age gap. LOL. I know I had some faster cars than normal in my youth and I did get myself into trouble. For her it’s safety more than anything, although I whole heartedly agree with you. FWIW the truck comes with 308/275 stock. I have a tune on it so peak number are a bit higher, but I picked up a nice amount under the curve. It’s the slowest car in my garage by far, it still not a slug. I say this because I rented a new 4Runner this weekend when I was in NM. Horrible car to drive around the city.
 
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I say this because I rented a new 4Runner this weekend when I was in NM. Horrible car to drive around the city.

4Runners are __ok__ for city use, they're just a little less dialed in as an urban cruiser vs. some other options.

I'm still pretty thrilled with our DD/RT, it's super capable as an SUV (even has low range!), and all the things I think an SUV should be able to do, but it's a solid city/urban ride too, plenty of power from the 5.7L + 8-speed, quiet, great ride with a mix of sporty and comfort (RT suspension is even lower than over models) and loaded with terrific tech. With T4Rs pushing into the mid-40s with a severe lack of tech, same 5-speed, it was definitely not a consideration for us (we previously owned the last V8 model).
 
4Runners are __ok__ for city use, they're just a little less dialed in as an urban cruiser vs. some other options.

OK is generous. I hated it, severely underpowered and terribly geared. I would rather drive a Rav 4 if only on the streets.
 
I think you may be right. I can't afford a Tesla, so it's all academic to me. When we see a good-quality, reliable electric car with a 300-mile range for under $25,000 out the door...then we're talking. But that is years away.

As for same-cost alternatives...for what most Model S sedans cost I could buy any brand-new sub-$30k car and have enough left over to buy an interesting classic / future classic car of my choice (W12 Phaeton? 1990s Bentley Turbo? Jag XK? M3/5? Various muscle cars? So many options) PLUS maintenance money that will keep both cars on the road for years. That's a no-brainer.
Pretty much what Tesla is trying to do but failing. ICE cars are still a huge value, even from American domestic brands which have been upping the ante for years to get close to the Japanese and Europeans. And even if someone can easily afford a Model S, is it a good choice in the long run? There's more gray than black and white when picking out a car, pun not intended.
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Well, my son is 21. There’s a little age gap. LOL. I know I had some faster cars than normal in my youth and I did get myself into trouble. For her it’s safety more than anything, although I whole heartedly agree with you. FWIW the truck comes with 308/275 stock. I have a tune on it so peak number are a bit higher, but I picked up a nice amount under the curve. It’s the slowest car in my garage by far, it still not a slug. I say this because I rented a new 4Runner this weekend when I was in NM. Horrible car to drive around the city.
Oh okay. Yeah the thing with the 4Runner is that if I'm not mistaken (DT feel free to correct me since you had one) is that the engine inside it is fairly ancient, but it's reliable. Though if I were in the middle of nowhere, it's a car I'd want to have over anything else except maybe one of those old school Land Rovers from the 50s and 60s.
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I'm still pretty thrilled with our DD/RT, it's super capable as an SUV (even has low range!), and all the things I think an SUV should be able to do, but it's a solid city/urban ride too, plenty of power from the 5.7L + 8-speed, quiet, great ride with a mix of sporty and comfort (RT suspension is even lower than over models) and loaded with terrific tech. With T4Rs pushing into the mid-40s with a severe lack of tech, same 5-speed, it was definitely not a consideration for us (we previously owned the last V8 model).
Yeah, I was a bit surprised when you brought it up with me because I never recalled looking into it and figured the Acura was the best available with 2nd row captain's chairs which IIRC was a "MUST" for you guys and the little G. Plus, they're way, way more comfortable than bench rows on road trips. The Jeep is actually a steal, especially with an extended warranty pickup because it's a Jeep and you never know.
 
OK is generous. I hated it, severely underpowered and terribly geared. I would rather drive a Rav 4 if only on the streets.

Hahaha, yeah, a RAV4 is probably a better solution for many people, I think quite a few folks get a 4Runner to be an "offroad poser" :D Heck, I knocked around the idea of a TRD model, just because I love how it looks, but vs. what the got, there's no contest for our "use case".


Oh okay. Yeah the thing with the 4Runner is that if I'm not mistaken (DT feel free to correct me since you had one) is that the engine inside it is fairly ancient, but it's reliable. Though if I were in the middle of nowhere, it's a car I'd want to have over anything else except maybe one of those old school Land Rovers from the 50s and 60s.

Oh yeah, the reliability (vs. on-road dynamics) is pretty stellar, the 4L V6 is crazy, there's cars around here with 300K+ miles going strong (that have not been "babied"). We had the 4.7L V8 (2nd gen with VVT-i), which was also pretty stout, though has timing belts vs. chains, which generally require a service around 75-90K miles at ~$1400 (you usually also do a water pump and tensioners while it's apart).


Yeah, I was a bit surprised when you brought it up with me because I never recalled looking into it and figured the Acura was the best available with 2nd row captain's chairs which IIRC was a "MUST" for you guys and the little G. Plus, they're way, way more comfortable than bench rows on road trips. The Jeep is actually a steal, especially with an extended warranty pickup because it's a Jeep and you never know.

The Capts chair 2nd row is very nice, and what I really like is the space between the seats for a 3rd row walk through, or next-to-your-seat-storage (that's why everyone says, if you do Captains chairs, don't do the optional, very obtrusive, center console).

The Acura was sort of gutless, less room, the fun version (the sport hybrid) had 0-lbs tow capacity, that's not an SUV.

No warranty concerns, we leased: warranty ends, we hand over the keys, all service also included, heck, we [likely] won't even have to replace the tires :D
 
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there's white TRD Pro 4runner that is always at my daughter's school. it looks great. if were to drop that kind of coin, I'd slap on a supercharger. I've heard that the old V8 was great in these cars.
 
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You can get the TRD in a nice sandstone color that looks killer with black wheels. Just not nearly $60K w/options killer.
 
A T4R TRD Pro doesn't even hit $50k...
If you get the base vehicle, sure. With a few accessories the price jumps up. You can get one for about 53K. There was even a video of a 4Runner getting to $50K. With tax and licensing tacked onto the payments schedule, you're looking at a fairly expensive but ancient vehicle.

At that point it makes more sense to bring in international versions of the Land Cruiser and not the bloated, optioned out version we get.


Edit: Off topic, but is your MBP the mid 2018 or the recently updated one with the better graphics? And if so, are you still waiting for it to ship?
 
A T4R TRD Pro doesn't even hit $50k...

Right, there was a red one I was talking to the local big (high volume) Toyota dealer about last year (was hanging around for a service on ours), a 2018, it was right at $47k MSRP - and with the TRD Pro, there are effectively no options unless you're talking about a bunch of aftermarket (I'd start with a different model if I was going to hack up the suspension).

While it's a "limited production", the sales guy said they'd do $2500 off without even breaking a sweat, TT&T I would've been OTD for under $50K.

IMG_0667_1200.jpeg
 
Accessories tack on the price, though. There were a few Night Shade models (still don't know what that means) up for sale a few weeks back at 50-53K. Even with a salesman/saleswoman discount, it's still a lot of money for a 'old' vehicle. I wouldn't complain if it had better tech (CarPlay and AndroidAuto) and had a newer engine and transmission (per Kram's complaint) that didn't sip gas like a wino at a distillery.

And that green Prius or Corolla in the far back looks lonely.
 
I’m not sure if I buy into this ‘four-door Mustang’ concept that has been rumored in the recent weeks. Especially being that Ford is eliminating most of their sedans, and then the possibility of having a four-door Mustang? Maybe with a turbo charged 5L V8 speculated? Regardless, the whole idea could easily be a publicity stunt, or, Ford actually is the process of manufacturing a four door V8 to compete with the likes of Audi, BMW, Mercerdes, Porsche. But with the recent discontinuation of the sedans, Ford is saving billions by not redesigning/revamping their sedan line up, at least for the time being.

Being a SHO owner, I’m definitely passionate having a larger AWD four-door sedan, and the 3.5 eco-boost TwinTurbo doesn’t disappoint at any moment, but if Ford were to make a four-door Mustang or another sedan based off the Mustang chassis with a (turbo charged) 5L V8, _that_ is something I would put a deposit down on day one. Does the market need a ‘Mustang’ four door sedan? Probably not, given the electric era taking over and with cross-overs being predominant, but I gather there still is a niche demographic who would be interested in this, but the question is, at what price point.
 
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