The Car Thread ... !

[quagmire]

You forget the typical Corvette buyer is very different from the other brands. Most Chevy dealers don't even let you test drive the car, even if you pulled up in a car twice the value of the 'Vette. You're overestimating how successful this 'Vette will be with people who have a history of preferring other brands or other sports car segments.

I wasn't trying to say the C8 will be a massive success who have preferred other brands. I clearly stated people who still wanted a Supra would probably still pick up the Supra. Mustang people will probably still pickup the GT500. People have different priorities and different reasons why they personally connect with those particular vehicles.

I was simply saying right now the hype is high right now. This isn't the first forum that has had people claim other cars in the price range are now dead( bimmerpost is having a similar reaction). But reality will come back eventually. They may just as well have second thoughts. I was in no way trying to say the C8 will be stealing massive sales from Ford, BMW, Porsche, Toyota, etc.

PS: If a Chevy dealer ever denied me a test drive of a Corvette( or any car) even though they know I was a serious customer and not looking for a joyride, they would lose my business. I will never buy a car sight unseen without a test drive.

 

[0388631]

I wasn't trying to say the C8 will be a massive success who have preferred other brands. I clearly stated people who still wanted a Supra would probably still pick up the Supra. Mustang people will probably still pickup the GT500. People have different priorities and different reasons why they personally connect with those particular vehicles.

I was simply saying right now the hype is high right now. This isn't the first forum that has had people claim other cars in the price range are now dead( bimmerpost is having a similar reaction). But reality will come back eventually. They may just as well have second thoughts. I was in no way trying to say the C8 will be stealing massive sales from Ford, BMW, Porsche, Toyota, etc.

Similar reactions have nearly always been the case with cars like the Corvette or performance Camaros or Mustangs. Reality rears its head eventually. Even a certain new marque is losing early adopters because their cars don't really live up to a luxury sedan even if the tech is new and futuristic.

 

[vipergts2207]

You'd be surprised how many Americans prefer foreign over American, and not expensive cars.

If you mean Asian, then yeah for sure. Most drivers just want an appliance to get from A to B, which Honda and Toyota do very well. However, we’re talking enthusiast cars here, like the Supra and C8. Nobody is cross-shopping either of those with a Camry.

 

[AustinIllini]

I can’t wait until the Porsche fans start coming up with reasons why a 718 or 911 is better than a C8.

I’m sure it’ll be highly subjective and align closely with people who can also hear the difference between a $2,000 amplifier and a $5,000 amplifier.

The quality of the Porsche 911 is going to be better than a Corvette. That's not particularly debatable.

And no, it's not like telling the difference between a $2000 amp and a $5000 amp. It's like being able to tell the difference between and iPhone and Pixel. You can tell the difference when you use them both.
[doublepost=1563754173][/doublepost]

You'd be surprised how many Americans prefer foreign over American, and not expensive cars.

Looked at objectively, outside of things protected by tariff, there's nothing the American car makers offer that Japan, Korea, or Germany don't do better.

Cadillac and Lincoln are low rent compared to the big 3 German manufacturers
The Japanese and Koreans beat out Ford, Dodge, and Chevrolet handily
You can say Tesla, but I'll still bet on the imports to beat them as well.

 

[0388631]

If you mean Asian, then yeah for sure. Most drivers just want an appliance to get from A to B, which Honda and Toyota do very well. However, we’re talking enthusiast cars here, like the Supra and C8. Nobody is cross-shopping either of those with a Camry.

A person intent on a Supra won't be looking at a Corvette. A typical 911 buyer isn't cross shopping a Corvette. A person looking at Lamborghini or Ferrari won't be getting a Corvette. An M5 buyer won't be buying a four door Dodge performance vehicle.

If Cadillac came out with a performance grand touring car, I could see that competing with the Lexus LC500.
[doublepost=1563754484][/doublepost]

You can say Tesla, but I'll still bet on the imports to beat them as well.

There was a period where Tesla did outsell the Germans, but I think most people are realizing the interiors suck and the car looks dated. I know a bunch of guys off of my MBZ forums who got Model Ss but got rid of them after 2-4 years because it just wasn't up to snuff. I'd rather get shot at again than buy a Tesla let alone lease one. I'm not against electric cars. I'm against cheaply built and shoddy workmanship.

I haven't driven a modern Korean car, but I hear and read good things about the Stinger. Though I'd probably never purchase one, but in that same regard I'd never buy an Alfa Giulia. Or Jaguar sedan for that matter.

There's a decent pro/con effect with cars at the moment because some brands are on a new gen new platform and others are older but offer more and benefit from maturity.

 

[realtuner]

The quality of the Porsche 911 is going to be better than a Corvette. That's not particularly debatable.

And no, it's not like telling the difference between a $2000 amp and a $5000 amp. It's like being able to tell the difference between and iPhone and Pixel. You can tell the difference when you use them both.

The quality angle is irrelevant. These are high end sports cars and all that really matters is how much fun they are to drive. The 911 will have better fit & finish for sure, but that’s not enough for the money they charge.

The Mazda Miata is considered one of the best sports cars of modern history. Not particularly fast and definitely not a luxury interior, but they are fun to drive.

I’m predicting the C8 is going to be better than people think. They talked about specific things during the keynote (like the steering) which to me indicate a substantial jump forward from the C7 in all the areas the C7 gets knocked for when compared to the 911. I don’t care if the interior is typical Chevy (even if it’s refined). All I want from this type of car is to be grinning from ear-to-ear when I drive it.

 

[AustinIllini]

The quality angle is irrelevant. These are high end sports cars and all that really matters is how much fun they are to drive. The 911 will have better fit & finish for sure, but that’s not enough for the money they charge.

The quality angle is more relevant than the drivability angle. My Audi is drivable, but honestly it usually doesn't matter. 90% of the time I'm sitting in traffic. The Porsche is a far better vehicle to sit in traffic in. It's just a much more upscale vehicle.

 

[vipergts2207]

A person intent on a Supra won't be looking at a Corvette. A typical 911 buyer isn't cross shopping a Corvette. A person looking at Lamborghini or Ferrari won't be getting a Corvette. An M5 buyer won't be buying a four door Dodge performance vehicle.

That’s stating the obvious though isn’t it? Clearly a brand loyalist is going to go with whatever brand it is that they associate with. There are lots of people out there who aren’t dedicated to a single brand though. Didn’t Relentless just cross-shop multiple makes before deciding on a Charger? The guy who’s been waiting for the next Supra since 2003 probably isn’t going to get a Corvette. Lots of people out there just want a cool and capable sports car though and something like the Supra or Cayman are going to look pretty lackluster compared to the C8.

The quality angle is more relevant than the drivability angle. My Audi is drivable, but honestly it usually doesn't matter. 90% of the time I'm sitting in traffic. The Porsche is a far better vehicle to sit in traffic in. It's just a much more upscale vehicle.

I feel like comparing the 911 to the C8, especially considering cost, is a bit odd. The 911 costs a substantial amount more than the C8, about 50% more, so I’d certainly hope fit and finish are better. Maybe once the Z06s and the ZR1s come out there might my be some good discussion to be had there. And performance wise, maybe I don’t have my Porsche specs correct, but the base C8 would appear to blow the base 911 out of the water. And while you might personally be concerned about sitting in traffic, how many people are going to daily a 911 or a C8 for that to be a concern? Probably relatively few. These cars are largely destined to be garage queens and weekend toys.

 

[AustinIllini]

I feel like comparing the 911 to the C8, especially considering cost, is a bit odd. The 911 costs a substantial amount more than the C8, about 50% more, so I’d certainly hope fit and finish are better. Maybe once the Z06s and the ZR1s come out there migh my be some good discussion to be had there. And performance wise, maybe I don’t have my Porsche specs correct, but the base C8 would appear to blow the base 911 out of the water. And while you might personally be concerned about sitting in traffic, how many people are going to daily a 911 or a C8 for that to be a concern? Probably relatively few. These cars are largely destined to be garage queens and weekend toys.

Yeah, I'm not sure why tuner brought it up

 

[0388631]

That’s stating the obvious though isn’t it? Clearly a brand loyalist is going to go with whatever brand it is that they associate with. There are lots of people out there who aren’t dedicated to a single brand though. Didn’t Relentless just cross-shop multiple makes before deciding on a Charger? The guy who’s been waiting for the next Supra since 2003 probably isn’t going to get a Corvette. Lots of people out there just want a cool and capable sports car though and something like the Supra or Cayman are going to look pretty lackluster compared to the C8.

'Ya think, Sherlock? What do you think we've been trying to tell you? The person who cares about value above all else will get a Corvette. The person who cares more about everything aside or along with value will consider other cars.

I don't need some random to come along and effectively reiterate word for word what I've been saying all day long. Get a grip. People who were in the market for an affordable sports car would have gotten the Miata. People who wanted an all rounder would shop around and may decide on the Corvette. There are still going to be people who'll take a Supra or Cayman over the Corvette, and they're neither brand loyalists nor numpties.


You're prefacing the allure of the Corvette on its paper figures. Fast base engine. Unique geared DCT. Mid-engine. New technology. But you're forgetting everything else. A lot of people aren't liking how the new Corvette looks. You're telling us that people will choose a Corvette blinding on figures and value through purchase. I would rather spend twice what the Corvette costs and get something else because it isn't very pretty at most angles. The rear looks like they pulled it off straight from the Camaro.

On paper, any modern muscle car with a tuned from the factory engine looks fantastic compared to an AMG or an M car. The reality is that while it offers up more brute, it fails in a lot of other areas. Those premium cars keep selling. Yeah, you can get an 800 HP Mopar product for less than $80,000, but is it good aside from brute power? No.

 

[A.Goldberg]

I will definitely have to check them out in person and keep an eye out on the forums to see the common issues with them.Seems like the most common complaint is the center screen is slow to respond during the initial boot up after starting the vehicle( something that can last for 3-5 minutes).

A T6 Inscription is as of today definitely out of my price range. Right now I think a XC40 T5 R-Design/Inscription or a XC60 T5 Momentum is where my comfort zone is right now. Either way this is at the least two years out as I want to pay the Camaro off first and not in need of a 2nd vehicle yet.

I sort of like the idea of leasing these type of vehicles so I don't have to worry about the cost of maintaining these type of vehicles when they get in the high mileage. And your concern about the turbocharger/supercharger combo is a concern of mine as well. My parents are vehemently against leasing, but it's something I would look into more.

Oops, I missed this post notification.

It seems the early Sensus Touch software was flakey but it sounds like that’s been ironed out.

My mom bought a 2015 XC70 new several years ago. Unfortunately it was a lemon with major electrical issues. That vehicle bears no relationship however to the new cars, but that was not a good experience. She ended up getting an Allroad.

I’d definitely go for the XC60 over the XC40. It’s a much higher quality vehicle.

I think the T5 engine is completely reasonable, especially if you have the Camaro to play around with. I think the momentum trim is fine, the base wheels just look a little cheap. Also, if you plan on keeping the car a while the T5 is probably a safer bet. The T6 having both turbochargers and superchargers seems like it could be dicey. The T8 with turbo+super+hybrid sounds like a problem waiting to happen, especially with Volvo’s limited hybrid experience. That said, Volvo has a good track record with nearly all of their engines. Additionally, since their engine lineup is basically the same engine in all cars, just a matter of adding forced induction methods, I’m hoping some the money they saved was put into making sure these engines are solid. If the engine itself had a fatal flaw Volvo would be in trouble. I really do wish they still made a 6cyl. The T6 engine in my significant others S60 (3.0 I6) is a fantastic engine.

Volvo does have very good lease deals. They also have that subscription service on some of their vehicles- I’ve never really looked into that but it might be reasonable. You should also know no one ever pays anywhere close to MSRP on a Volvo.

 

[0388631]

And while you might personally be concerned about sitting in traffic, how many people are going to daily a 911 or a C8 for that to be a concern? Probably relatively few. These cars are largely destined to be garage queens and weekend toys.

Check out Rennlist or come to LA. People daily drive Porsches and far more exotic cars in warmer and drier climates than Ohio.
[doublepost=1563770469][/doublepost]

I really do wish they still made a 6cyl.

I wish they still made rear wheel drive cars. But we can't have everything we wish for, right?

 

[A.Goldberg]

I wish they still made rear wheel drive cars. But we can't have everything we wish for, right?

Correct, but I don’t think Volvo’s made a RWD car in like 20 years- closer to 25 considering the the 940/960 didn’t sell well in the later years.

 

[0388631]

Correct, but I don’t think Volvo’s made a RWD car in like 20 years- closer to 25 considering the the 940/960 didn’t sell well in the later years.

IIRC the 940/960 weren't pleasant to work on. I liked the old RWD Volvos. But they were also built like a tank, looked the part, and weren't particularly fast. I rarely see a Volvo out here, but I was always a fan of the C30 because I thought it was brilliantly designed. Really old S70s were pretty and reminds me of a blend of 70s and 80s Volvo. The first gen S60 was pretty to look at, especially from behind in traffic. There used to be a superbly restored P1800 riding around this area many years ago and I always suspected it was one of Leno's cars because he has often been seen driving a car around here. I think I've told this to you in private because I rarely bring up the P1800 because 99% of people never heard of them or seen one in person.

Wasn't a fan of the 240s when they were being produced, but they were dead easy to work on. Ample room. Really simple diagrams available at the time if you could get your hands on them. And, yes, I understand the irony of what I said given my car history.

 

[Bug-Creator]

US „sports“ cars are build for bragging rights and a drag race once a year

BMW, Mercedes,Audi and even the Japanese built the cars to be actually driven that fast.


Long stretch of unlimited Autobahn in American muscle? Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[0388631]

I've always wanted a Pantera.

BMW, Mercedes,Audi and even the Japanese built the cars to be actually driven that fast.

I'd comment but there is an officer in our presence, and while he's a nice bloke I don't want him sniffing around.

Be it either of our Mercs or the Lexus, I find myself drifting off to sleep during long drives. Comfortable, relatively quiet, plenty of room. The 2IS is a lot more comfortable than the 1IS, and the 3IS is stiffer than the 2IS.

 

[A.Goldberg]

I think the new corvette is an interesting prospect. While it’s true conventionally it would not be cross shopped with a Ferrari/Lamborghini or a German sports sedan, it does open an interesting prospect being a sub $60,000 mid-engine sports car that will probably end up out-preforming cars that are far more expensive. In other words, it may open a new market of buyers.

The Corvette has long been an attainable sports car. Additionally, it’s reliability and repair costs are actually manageable unlike more exotic brands. You don’t have to budget $20,000+ a year if you expect to drive it a couple thousand miles. To be honest I was surprised they are sticking with a naturally aspirated pushrod V8, presumably far more simplistic than what everyone else is using. It is unfortunate they are not offering a manual transmission though. That interior is atrocious though with the vertical buttons- I look forward to the facelift

I suspect the C8 will do well despite the shrinking sports car market. It is pretty crazy you can buy a sports sedan for relatively cheap with sub 4 sec 0-60, the ability to seat 4-5 people comfortably, have AWD for inclement weather, and be comfortable enough to drive it daily.

 

[44267547]

US „sports“ cars are build for bragging rights and a drag race once a year.

Definitely not. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that sports cars need to be ‘dragged race’? I mean, you don’t have to go to a dragstrip to enjoy a car that has plenty of power to be a daily or something you want to enjoy on the weekend for cruising. And I actually don’t know too many sport car enthusiasts that actually need to brag about anything, they buy what is specific to them in terms of style/brand, ect. Most muscle car/sport car owners want the experience of what they want to drive, ‘bragging rights’ seems rather juvenile in some respects.

 

[quagmire]

US „sports“ cars are build for bragging rights and a drag race once a year

BMW, Mercedes,Audi and even the Japanese built the cars to be actually driven that fast.


Long stretch of unlimited Autobahn in American muscle? Thanks, but no thanks.

Actually driven a modern Corvette or the 6th gen Camaro or all based on stereotypes?

Go to 11 minutes. Car looks completely stable and he isn’t putting much effort in maintaining control. About the only issue he had was some hood flutter.

[doublepost=1563792487][/doublepost]

I think the new corvette is an interesting prospect. While it’s true conventionally it would not be cross shopped with a Ferrari/Lamborghini or a German sports sedan, it does open an interesting prospect being a sub $60,000 mid-engine sports car that will probably end up out-preforming cars that are far more expensive. In other words, it may open a new market of buyers.

The Corvette has long been an attainable sports car. Additionally, it’s reliability and repair costs are actually manageable unlike more exotic brands. You don’t have to budget $20,000+ a year if you expect to drive it a couple thousand miles. To be honest I was surprised they are sticking with a naturally aspirated pushrod V8, presumably far more simplistic than what everyone else is using. It is unfortunate they are not offering a manual transmission though. That interior is atrocious though with the vertical buttons- I look forward to the facelift

I love the fact the base model remains naturally aspirated. Simpler the better. But the higher trims will probably feature a twin turbo DOHC V8 according to rumors and leaked CAD renderings.

 

[quagmire]

Oops, I missed this post notification.

It seems the early Sensus Touch software was flakey but it sounds like that’s been ironed out.

My mom bought a 2015 XC70 new several years ago. Unfortunately it was a lemon with major electrical issues. That vehicle bears no relationship however to the new cars, but that was not a good experience. She ended up getting an Allroad.

I’d definitely go for the XC60 over the XC40. It’s a much higher quality vehicle.

I think the T5 engine is completely reasonable, especially if you have the Camaro to play around with. I think the momentum trim is fine, the base wheels just look a little cheap. Also, if you plan on keeping the car a while the T5 is probably a safer bet. The T6 having both turbochargers and superchargers seems like it could be dicey. The T8 with turbo+super+hybrid sounds like a problem waiting to happen, especially with Volvo’s limited hybrid experience. That said, Volvo has a good track record with nearly all of their engines. Additionally, since their engine lineup is basically the same engine in all cars, just a matter of adding forced induction methods, I’m hoping some the money they saved was put into making sure these engines are solid. If the engine itself had a fatal flaw Volvo would be in trouble. I really do wish they still made a 6cyl. The T6 engine in my significant others S60 (3.0 I6) is a fantastic engine.

Volvo does have very good lease deals. They also have that subscription service on some of their vehicles- I’ve never really looked into that but it might be reasonable. You should also know no one ever pays anywhere close to MSRP on a Volvo.

Yeah the performance of the T5 seems more than adequate based on reviews I’ve looked up.

Definitely leaning towards XC60 based on looking at every review I can find. It’s a shame most of the YouTube reviewers who go into detail on the interior are reviewing the RDesign or Inscription. Not many momentum’s.

Their subscription service is only available on the XC40 right now and only with the Momentum and R Design( $700 and $800 respectively). I get it includes insurance and covers wear and tear, but seems a bit steep to me. Volvo’s do seem to depreciate a lot as carmax has an XC60 Inscription for $41K( ex rental so that’s out). But really dislike used cars on the basis on not knowing how the previous owner maintained it( carfax not being always accurate on a cars history).

 

[bunnspecial]

The new Corvette looks great on paper spec wise, and I'm sure it will handle great(say what you will about Corvettes, but they've always handled better than pretty much any other production US car, and are definitely competitive with sportscars from the rest of the world).

With that said, I was initially neutral on the styling, and the more I look at it the less I like it.

Also, I know that these days automatics are pretty much in every way better than manuals, but that still doesn't change the fact that I want a manual in my sports car! That's becoming increasingly difficult to get, I realize and in 10 years will probably not be possible, but it doesn't change that it's what I want!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The quality of the Porsche 911 is going to be better than a Corvette. That's not particularly debatable.

Yes - but they are also very different cars. I think most Corvette buyers are not seriously considering a Porsche, and vice versa. I am not a Corvette fan, but for decades they have always been much better value for money than a Porsche, even if the interior looked like it came out of a Cavalier. Given a choice between the two, I'd take a 911, but it really is an apples to oranges comparison.

And, frankly, with Porsche used values veering into ludicrous territory these days, it makes the 911 - despite all its wonderful qualities - a somewhat less attractive proposition.

Cadillac and Lincoln are low rent compared to the big 3 German manufacturers

True, but the Germans are also overrated. The German luxury brands have had their fair share of quality control and design issues - but because they are generally better they tend to get swept under the rug, especially in the context of a US vs German car discussion.

And, no, despite what Ford tries to tell us, Lincoln is not really a competitor with the Germans - except perhaps in the over-50 demographic. Cadillac somewhat more so.[/QUOTE]

 

[AustinIllini]

And, no, despite what Ford tries to tell us, Lincoln is not really a competitor with the Germans - except perhaps in the over-50 demographic. Cadillac somewhat more so.

[/QUOTE]
Cadillac is closer but they badly need to stop cutting corners. Their cars are cheap in the worst possible places.

 

[2298754]

And, frankly, with Porsche used values veering into ludicrous territory these days, it makes the 911 - despite all its wonderful qualities - a somewhat less attractive proposition.

It's actually the opposite. If you buy a properly specced 911, you can flip it in two years without taking a bath on it.

Corvettes (and Camaros) suffer from horrific depreciation because Chevy can't even give them away for 15% off.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

It's actually the opposite. If you buy a properly specced 911, you can flip it in two years without taking a bath.

Sure - as long as you have the capital to buy a decent one in the first place. The price of entry to the used market has definitely become quite inflated (note: I'm referring to the older used and particularly to the classic market here, not late models).

Corvettes have always been cheap. That's part of what makes them attractive to buyers - value for money. They are generally less sophisticated and less upmarket, but their buyers know that. Their low resale value makes them accessible to people who can never really afford a 911. But again, apples to oranges.

We just had a Corvette club drive through our town recently...hilarious - 30 retired accountants with the same hairdo, same paunch, and same Corvette polo shirt. When I heard that Corvette buyers are upset with the switch to a mid engine layout, I rejoiced...GM badly needs to shed this old man image with that car.

Back in my teens I desperately wanted a basic 1970s 911 or a 944. I could probably still just about swing a used 944, but all the older 911s are now being bought up and restored for $$$ and their value has skyrocketed.