The Car Thread ... !

[vipergts2207]

'Ya think, Sherlock? What do you think we've been trying to tell you? The person who cares about value above all else will get a Corvette. The person who cares more about everything aside or along with value will consider other cars.

I don't need some random to come along and effectively reiterate word for word what I've been saying all day long. Get a grip. People who were in the market for an affordable sports car would have gotten the Miata. People who wanted an all rounder would shop around and may decide on the Corvette. There are still going to be people who'll take a Supra or Cayman over the Corvette, and they're neither brand loyalists nor numpties.


You're prefacing the allure of the Corvette on its paper figures. Fast base engine. Unique geared DCT. Mid-engine. New technology. But you're forgetting everything else. A lot of people aren't liking how the new Corvette looks. You're telling us that people will choose a Corvette blinding on figures and value through purchase. I would rather spend twice what the Corvette costs and get something else because it isn't very pretty at most angles. The rear looks like they pulled it off straight from the Camaro.

On paper, any modern muscle car with a tuned from the factory engine looks fantastic compared to an AMG or an M car. The reality is that while it offers up more brute, it fails in a lot of other areas. Those premium cars keep selling. Yeah, you can get an 800 HP Mopar product for less than $80,000, but is it good aside from brute power? No.

You seem to think I'm speaking in absolutes, which is not the case. It's not like sales of Caymans, Supras, and GT500s are going to be zero. However, it is going to be interesting to see what the sales figures are like for these cars when they start coming in. Additionally, no design appeals to everyone, Corvette included, so while you say "a lot of people" don't like it, overall reception has been quite positive. Compare the reaction to the '20 Corvette to the '19 Camaro, it's night and day. And while you'd rather spend twice as much to get something else, that's not an option for most people. Most people can't drop $120k on a car, and will be left choosing between the aforementioned vehicles that compete in the Corvette's $60k price range. I'd rather have a Ferrari 812, but that's unrealistic for me, nor is it comparing apples to apples. Frankly even a Corvette is unrealistic for me right now because we just bought the wife a new car.

 

[2298754]

We just had a Corvette club drive through our town recently...hilarious - 30 retired accountants with the same hairdo, same paunch, and same Corvette polo shirt.

Yes, you're required to wear a pair of jorts!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Yes, you're required to wear a pair of jorts!

One thing is for sure - the new Corvette is going to change the Corvette buying demographic somewhat. I think that is probably a good thing.

As an aside - I don't know if this has been mentioned previously in this thread - but GM has toyed with the idea of a mid-engined Corvette since the 1950s, so this is really not particularly left-field. Now they just need to do away with the pushrods...

 

[bunnspecial]

Now they just need to do away with the pushrods...

Pushrods in and of themselves are not necessarily a bad thing. The LS and LT series engines give you a fairly simple design, and they can certainly push out a lot of power. It's true that it's really difficult(if not impossible) to make them breath as efficiently as an overhead cam, but the overall packaging of an OHV engine generally lets you get away with more displacement to somewhat make up for that.

Having had my fair share of OHC cars, I also appreciate the lack of what seems like miles of timing chain in an OHV engine.

There are, after all, still three major V8 OHV engine families in production, and one of those families only goes into cars with solid 6 figure prices as the starting point.

At the same time, though, I'm a bit weird since my last two V engines, including one I currently own.(both American, one a V8 and one a V6) have been DOHC, while the only 4 cylinder I've ever owned is OHV.

 

[quagmire]

There are, after all, still three major V8 OHV engine families in production, and one of those families only goes into cars with solid 6 figure prices as the starting point.

Actually four now with Ford's new 7.3 liter V8 for their Super Duty trucks.

 

[realtuner]

The quality angle is more relevant than the drivability angle. My Audi is drivable, but honestly it usually doesn't matter. 90% of the time I'm sitting in traffic. The Porsche is a far better vehicle to sit in traffic in. It's just a much more upscale vehicle.

I know a lot of exotic and 911 owners. I don’t know any who daily drive those cars - they all have second and third vehicles. Even Porsche's own data on 911 owners shows this. It's the main reason Porsche decided to build an SUV - because they found a large number of 911 owners also owned a luxury SUV. Why not sell something your customers are already buying, but now you can sell them BOTH vehicles instead of customers buying a 911 from you and another vehicle from Ranger Rover (for example).

The only people I've seen who daily drive 911's (or other sports/exotics) are those with just enough income to be able to afford to lease one, and they bought them for the image it conveys (posers).


That said, I still stand by my earlier comments. When the C8 is finally tested you're going to see Porsche owners talking about fit & finish, refinement or other subjective terms instead of performance. Which is actually quite sad that the single biggest icon in sports car history (the 911) yet discussions around it will talk about things OTHER than performance to try and justify why it gets spanked on the track by a C8 for half the price.
[doublepost=1563814389][/doublepost]

Pushrods in and of themselves are not necessarily a bad thing.

The biggest problem with pushrods is the additional mass. In a typical OHC engine the camshaft directly operates the hydraulic lifter which sits on top of the valve. The valve spring only has to be strong enough to counter the mass of the valve and the lifter.

With a pushrod engine you have the mass of the lifter, the pushrod itself, the rocker arm and finally the valve. This is why OHV engines can't operate a higher RPM's (like a OHC engine can) because it's hard to get all this mass to move back when the valve closes.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Pushrods in and of themselves are not necessarily a bad thing. The LS and LT series engines give you a fairly simple design, and they can certainly push out a lot of power. It's true that it's really difficult(if not impossible) to make them breath as efficiently as an overhead cam, but the overall packaging of an OHV engine generally lets you get away with more displacement to somewhat make up for that.

OHV engines are not a "bad" design, and it's fun to see variation in automotive engineering - especially nowadays, when vehicles are all starting to become the same. We are gradually transitioning into a world where everyone drives a similar-looking egg-shaped crossover with a lot of power and sophisticated electronic subsystems that increasingly separate the driver from the machine and from the environment. Easy to drive, capacious, swift - but soulless. Sports cars are one of the few market segments where you still see a wide variation in design.

 

[AustinIllini]

I know a lot of exotic and 911 owners. I don’t know any who daily drive those cars - they all have second and third vehicles. Even Porsche's own data on 911 owners shows this. It's the main reason Porsche decided to build an SUV - because they found a large number of 911 owners also owned a luxury SUV. Why not sell something your customers are already buying, but now you can sell them BOTH vehicles instead of customers buying a 911 from you and another vehicle from Ranger Rover (for example).

The only people I've seen who daily drive 911's (or other sports/exotics) are those with just enough income to be able to afford to lease one, and they bought them for the image it conveys (posers).


That said, I still stand by my earlier comments. When the C8 is finally tested you're going to see Porsche owners talking about fit & finish, refinement or other subjective terms instead of performance. Which is actually quite sad that the single biggest icon in sports car history (the 911) yet discussions around it will talk about things OTHER than performance to try and justify why it gets spanked on the track by a C8 for half the price.
[doublepost=1563814389][/doublepost]

The biggest problem with pushrods is the additional mass. In a typical OHC engine the camshaft directly operates the hydraulic lifter which sits on top of the valve. The valve spring only has to be strong enough to counter the mass of the valve and the lifter.

With a pushrod engine you have the mass of the lifter, the pushrod itself, the rocker arm and finally the valve. This is why OHV engines can't operate a higher RPM's (like a OHC engine can) because it's hard to get all this mass to move back when the valve closes.

You live in Canada. Daily driving a Porsche is suicide in Canada. Of course, so is driving a Corvette.

Here (Austin, TX) we have tons of people who daily drive vettes and Porsches

 

[bunnspecial]

With a pushrod engine you have the mass of the lifter, the pushrod itself, the rocker arm and finally the valve. This is why OHV engines can't operate a higher RPM's (like a OHC engine can) because it's hard to get all this mass to move back when the valve closes.

While there certainly is less valve train mass in an OHC design, a lot of the rev limitation in a typical American V8 is also just from the mass of 8 pistons and rods moving together, especially with a(relatively) long square or undersquare stroke. I've spent a fair bit of time around a few OHC V8s, including the AJ-V8 and the Ford Modular in both SOHC(16V) and DOHC(32V) form. All of them redlined in the 6500rpm ballpark, which is typically what you see on a performance OHV engine.

There again, I'll defer back to the fact that most of my hands-on pushrod experience is with an old(1950s), severely undersquare design. From the factory, it's designed with a 6500 rpm redline, although of course there's no rev limiter and with fresh, factory spec valve springs you can pretty reliably run one up to 7K without floating valves. Of course, I DON'T make a habit of doing that, but have inadvertently done it on my car. The stock pushrods in that engine are heavy(they're solid) but at one time I had a set of super light hollow ones that cut out a lot of valve inertia...and I'll skip the story as to why I bought them and why they're sitting in a box in the garage rather than in the car. With heavier than stock valve springs, those same hollow pushrods, and a full-blow racing camshaft I've seen examples of that engine run up to 8K rpms, although that's obviously not an engine suitable for street use.

Personally, I'll trade off down-low torque for a high revving engine any day, and often times it takes other things like aggressive cam profiles(with their corresponding trade-offs) to get any engine regardless of how its valves are opened to rev up to high RPMs. Low RPM torque is something I can feel and use, and it-to me-makes driving the car more enjoyable.

 

[0388631]

You live in Canada. Daily driving a Porsche is suicide in Canada. Of course, so is driving a Corvette.

Here (Austin, TX) we have tons of people who daily drive vettes and Porsches

Driving in Vancouver and much of trendy BC is suicide in general. Culturally insensitive for me to say that?

 

[realtuner]

You live in Canada. Daily driving a Porsche is suicide in Canada. Of course, so is driving a Corvette.

Here (Austin, TX) we have tons of people who daily drive vettes and Porsches

I live in Vancouver, where you could drive a Porsche 350 days out of the year if you wanted.

 

[0388631]

And run them into a building, scrape the side up of your Macan, and many other things.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Personally I don’t really like the new corvette exterior styling. The interior is atrocious. The exterior profile looks like basically any other now generic mid-engine exotic sports car. That said, I don’t think the younger generations have much interest in owning a corvette. I feel like the median age of a corvette driver is 70. I think the new design has the opportunity to potentially attract the younger generations who want a exotic sports car but can’t afford to buy and maintain one.

 

[0388631]

Exterior styling aside, the interior is a step up, but that button row leaves me puzzled. They could have taken a page out of Audi's R8 playbook with knurled toggle switches.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Personally, I'll trade off down-low torque for a high revving engine any day, and often times it takes other things like aggressive cam profiles(with their corresponding trade-offs) to get any engine regardless of how its valves are opened to rev up to high RPMs. Low RPM torque is something I can feel and use, and it-to me-makes driving the car more enjoyable.

High RPMs require more exotic materials and more precise engineering, which is why the earliest 'performance cars' relied on gigantic low-revving engines that putt-putted along oddly by today's standards, but produced mountains of torque. Cars like the Fiat S76 with its 28 liter 4 cylinder (watch engine startup at 1:55).

 

[0388631]

Apart from the BS 1M pound claim, any thoughts on the fully electric F150?

 

[LizKat]

Nice. I bet it has a lovely tape deck though!

heh my 2000 Prizm (a 5-speed stick) has only a radio and cassette tape gig and no aux-input. That became the least of my concerns once I found several alternate ways of letting an iPod feed the speakers. But the iron worms are starting to emerge now around the wheel wells, so I look around at some newer new-to-me options now and discover it's getting harder to find a stick shift in a regular ol' utilitarian point A to point B vehicle

I used to daydream that my next car would be an electric or more probably a hybrid because I frequently still make day trips that are around 180-200 miles RT, and don't feel like hanging out for a recharge... but the prices for electrics with decent range seem prohibitive and anyway I'm getting on in years.

I'm no fan of aging drivers doing 30 in a 55 zone and similar antics, so I always said I'd hang up my own license by time I was 80 max. Starting to hope the Prizm will behave itself and resist serious iron worms well enough to last a few more years... because I just don't see another used gasoline-drinking car that I feel like springing for so far. New ones look to be pricey enough they remind me that I bought and renovated my HOUSE a long time ago.

 

[0388631]

heh my 2000 Prizm (a 5-speed stick) has only a radio and cassette tape gig and no aux-input. That became the least of my concerns once I found several alternate ways of letting an iPod feed the speakers. But the iron worms are starting to emerge now around the wheel wells, so I look around at some newer new-to-me options now and discover it's getting harder to find a stick shift in a regular ol' utilitarian point A to point B vehicle

I used to daydream that my next car would be an electric or more probably a hybrid because I frequently still make day trips that are around 180-200 miles RT, and don't feel like hanging out for a recharge... but the prices for electrics with decent range seem prohibitive and anyway I'm getting on in years.

I'm no fan of aging drivers doing 30 in a 55 zone and similar antics, so I always said I'd hang up my own license by time I was 80 max. Starting to hope the Prizm will behave itself and resist serious iron worms well enough to last a few more years... because I just don't see another used gasoline-drinking car that I feel like springing for so far. New ones look to be pricey enough they remind me that I bought and renovated my HOUSE a long time ago.

A Prius and to a lesser extent a Civic would be good choices, actually. Particularly the hatchback variety. The latter still comes in stick. I'm not too sure how reliable the engine portion of a Prius is, but their batteries last a long time as hybrids. You could easily put 200-400K miles on a new Civic without major work being done that becomes a costly nightmare.

There is also the Corolla. However, I know very little about the car to recommend it or not recommend it. I believe there's one or two people in here who can chime in with their thoughts on the car.

 

[Apple fanboy]

heh my 2000 Prizm (a 5-speed stick) has only a radio and cassette tape gig and no aux-input. That became the least of my concerns once I found several alternate ways of letting an iPod feed the speakers. But the iron worms are starting to emerge now around the wheel wells, so I look around at some newer new-to-me options now and discover it's getting harder to find a stick shift in a regular ol' utilitarian point A to point B vehicle

I used to daydream that my next car would be an electric or more probably a hybrid because I frequently still make day trips that are around 180-200 miles RT, and don't feel like hanging out for a recharge... but the prices for electrics with decent range seem prohibitive and anyway I'm getting on in years.

I'm no fan of aging drivers doing 30 in a 55 zone and similar antics, so I always said I'd hang up my own license by time I was 80 max. Starting to hope the Prizm will behave itself and resist serious iron worms well enough to last a few more years... because I just don't see another used gasoline-drinking car that I feel like springing for so far. New ones look to be pricey enough they remind me that I bought and renovated my HOUSE a long time ago.

I can’t ever imagine giving up my car. I also can’t ever imagine doing 30 in a 55 zone.

 

[LizKat]

I can’t ever imagine giving up my car. I also can’t ever imagine doing 30 in a 55 zone.

Yes, and I'm not sure why older people do frequently end being "Sunday drivers" on weekdays, either. It must have to do with bad vision or they have already experienced some ill effect from having slower reflexes. Or god forbid they're on meds that alter their perception of what they're doing.

Geezer drivers cause accidents on two lane roads up here because other drivers usually lose it after awhile and just pass the dude on the double yellow line. I always just hang way way back from people like that so I don't get tempted to do something really stupid.

Anyway I'm planning to hang up my car keys in a few years. I'm edging into it, using grocery delivery services in bad weather and stuff like that. I will miss spontaneity of just hopping in the car on a whim and going somewhere though, I am sure. But the anti-geezer feeling is strong in me!

 

[0388631]

Those services are a godsend whenever the kids and us are also sick. Though I won't use it any other time, maybe very windy weather which does happen from time to time, not always the same year.

Plus, some of my favorite stores like a family owned chocolate store don't sell seafoam toffee covered in luscious dark chocolate. Mmm...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I look around at some newer new-to-me options now and discover it's getting harder to find a stick shift in a regular ol' utilitarian point A to point B vehicle.

The new Corolla still has a manual option - an "intelligent" manual that rev matches for downshifts nd supposedly has a more forgiving clutch engagement. But it is still a manual. You can't really eve go wrong with a Corolla.

Manual transmissions are rapidly going away. I bought a Fiesta hatchback with a 5-speed in 2013, and so far it has been a great car. It was cheap to buy, gets 38mpg (US) on average, has a fun chassis and has the modern touches - bluetooth audio, USB port, hands-free phone controls, heated seats, stability/traction control. Lady Blackadder liked it so much she bought the turbo'd ST version (6-speed MT) last summer. That car is a lot of fun to drive, and still gets just over 30mpg on average.

I don't know what I'll do for my next car though. Affordable MT cars are getting much harder to find and the SUV infection is spreading like an unstoppable plague.

 

[0388631]

The new Corolla still has a manual option - an "intelligent" manual that rev matches for downshifts nd supposedly has a more forgiving clutch engagement. But it is still a manual. You can't really eve go wrong with a Corolla.

Manual transmissions are rapidly going away. I bought a Fiesta hatchback with a 5-speed in 2013, and so far it has been a great car. It was cheap to buy, gets 38mpg (US) on average, has a fun chassis and has the modern touches - bluetooth audio, USB port, hands-free phone controls, heated seats, stability/traction control. Lady Blackadder liked it so much she bought the turbo'd ST version (6-speed MT) last summer. That car is a lot of fun to drive, and still gets just over 30mpg on average.

I don't know what I'll do for my next car though. Affordable MT cars are getting much harder to find and the SUV infection is spreading like an unstoppable plague.

Honda does rev-matching, too, no?

It's funny you bring up the death of the manual. I read a report a few days ago on why Chevy wasn't bringing a manual to the Corvette. Aside from the new engine arrangement making it harder to fit a traditional manual, the take rates for manual have slid down hard in the past five years alone. A traditional auto like a ZF8 is simply fast when it's tuned correctly by an OEM like BMW. Having driven the Giulia which uses the same transmission, Alfa has tuned it differently. Almost tweaking your neck with some shifts. And I've driven ZF8 equipped cars that had lousy tuning that negated positive effects the transmission brought to the car.

Good modern DCTs are simply faster and fun to play with. If you got money to blow, SCT in hyper exotic cars are interesting. Never driven one, but I don't fancy breaking my neck when doing a 60 to 120 pull.

 

[44267547]

As another poster mentioned, I don’t understand why Camaros are so abysmal in resale value/can’t sell. I mean, maybe it’s just my ‘geographic locale’ where they’re not as popular as the Chargers/Mustangs, etc. We have what we call in my city, ‘dealer row’, which is basically a few miles of nothing but car dealerships, and I kid you not, I see the *same* Camaros constantly sitting on the lot that never seem to sell (Which are discounted as well). I get the whole ‘visibility argument’, and some of the design styling cues with the Camaro are atrocious, but I think the addition of the 10 speed and the revisions for 2020 model have some decent improvements.

I mentioned it already before as well, but last year I was looking at 2018 white Mustang GT just for fun, and I saw a 2017 SS sitting on their lot used for sale and I commented on it, and the dealer said they couldn’t sell it for the life of them, even trying to discount it, nobody wanted it, even with low miles/good condition, Camaros just don’t sell well. In my opinion, I don’t think it’s the branding, I think it’s an awkward looking car in some aspects, even though everyone has their own choice of aesthetics when it comes to styling.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Hottest day of the year. Never seen so many classics on the road. Including the old (Morgan?) on a rather major roundabout being attended to by the AA.

I bet it’s overheated!