The Car Thread ... !

[The-Real-Deal82]

Why would they need to run their AC and Heaters at the same time? Maybe that’s the problem?

I think it’s worst case scenario thrown out there to try and paint the image EV’s are expensive to run.

My own experience for our Audi Q4 if we charge at home on our overnight Octopus energy tariff, it costs us £9-£11 to charge to 100%. That gets us between 250 and 290 miles of range. My Audi A4 2.0 TDI cost me £88 to fill up yesterday and that gets me about 550 miles. I’d have to charge the Q4 twice to get the same range but at £22 maximum, it’s a hell of a lot cheaper to run.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Why would they need to run their AC and Heaters at the same time? Maybe that’s the problem?

Well, modern ventilation systems would have cooling and heating on all the time and let the system deal with it automatically. Air Conditioning isn't just for cooling. We have a variety of sensors in rooms, and in the central system to manage the demand and create positive airflow. Especially important with modern well insulated homes (and cars).

Same as in the car, I see so many people manually switching on/off the heating, aircon, and even eco mode. Just let the automatic part be automatic, it will be much better at it than humans.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I think it’s worst case scenario thrown out there to try and paint the image EV’s are expensive to run.

My own experience for our Audi Q4 if we charge at home on our overnight Octopus energy tariff, it costs us £9-£11 to charge to 100%. That gets us between 250 and 290 miles of range. My Audi A4 2.0 TDI cost me £88 to fill up yesterday and that gets me about 550 miles. I’d have to charge the Q4 twice to get the same range but at £22 maximum, it’s a hell of a lot cheaper to run.

Absolutely it is. I think the trouble is many non EV drivers think all we do is charge at the expensive motorway charging stations. Something like 90% of all charging is done at peoples homes. At night. On a cheap rate.
I’m probably the exception. Just about 95% of my charging is done at work for free.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Absolutely it is. I think the trouble is many non EV drivers think all we do is charge at the expensive motorway charging stations. Something like 90% of all charging is done at peoples homes. At night. On a cheap rate.
I’m probably the exception. Just about 95% of my charging is done at work for free.

I am an all EV household. With a Tesla MY and TM3. Since January 2023 - basically the full of October 2023 (tomorrow), my wife and I have charged 1 time on a super charger. So, I would say 99.9999999% of the time, our 2 EV's are charged at home, in a home with solar panels. I went from spending $500+ a month on gas to my electric bill increasing by $120.

And to the gentleman who keeps saying EV's are slower in handling, please look at the track times of the Tesla Model S Plaid, which is now a $90k vehicle (brand new) in the US. Look at the prices of the ICE vehicles it takes to be in the same conversation as the Plaid... This is essentially the gold standard for demonstrating speed and handling.

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now when it comes to any realistic speeds around town, it beat my TM3 or TMY, both with Acceleration Boost, it would take a super car, there are 0 ICE under $100k that can keep up period... I don't race on the street, but on the speeds one is capable of achieving without losing control, it isn't even close.

Also, a TM3 Performance gross weigh is 5,072 lbs. A 3 series BMW M3 Competition (comparable speed, but smaller than a TM3) gross weight is 4,780. So, I'm not sure where you are getting your figures about EV's being heavy...

If you are just going to repeat propaganda, you aren't helping anyone, or yourself. Please produce some facts. This thread is about people interested in or have EV's (to help those considering getting an EV). There are legitimate reasons NOT to get an EV, the points you are making are not...

Weight Sources:

BMW M3 Competition:

2023 BMW M3 Competition 4dr Rear-Wheel Drive Sedan Specs and Prices - Autoblog

2023 M3 Competition 4dr Rear-Wheel Drive Sedan specs (horsepower, torque, engine size, wheelbase), MPG and pricing.

www.autoblog.com

Tesla Model 3 Performance:

2023 Tesla Model 3 Performance 4dr All-Wheel Drive Sedan Specs and Prices - Autoblog

2023 Model 3 Performance 4dr All-Wheel Drive Sedan specs (horsepower, torque, engine size, wheelbase), MPG and pricing.

www.autoblog.com

 

[vipergts2207]

I am an all EV household. With a Tesla MY and TM3. Since January 2023 - basically the full of October 2023 (tomorrow), my wife and I have charged 1 time on a super charger. So, I would say 99.9999999% of the time, our 2 EV's are charged at home, in a home with solar panels. I went from spending $500+ a month on gas to my electric bill increasing by $120.

And to the gentleman who keeps saying EV's are slower in handling, please look at the track times of the Tesla Model S Plaid, which is now a $90k vehicle (brand new) in the US. Look at the prices of the ICE vehicles it takes to be in the same conversation as the Plaid... This is essentially the gold standard for demonstrating speed and handling.

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looking at that list I'm seeing the Audi RS3 ($62k), BMW M2 ($63k), Chevy Camaro ZL1 ($75k) and Corvette w/Z51 package ($76k) all with faster times. This isn't to say that the Plaid is slow, just that it's not as if it occupies some echelon occupied by only six figure supercars. You can get the same or better track performance for well less than $90k. Now how useful that performance is to most drivers is very debatable. 99% of owners won't use it. I don't take my Hellcat to the extremes of its capabilities either. That being said, it's an absolute joy to drive and that V8 roar and supercharger whine are irreplaceable. I'd never trade it for an EV. My Grand Caravan on the other hand, that's a different story.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I am an all EV household. With a Tesla MY and TM3. Since January 2023 - basically the full of October 2023 (tomorrow), my wife and I have charged 1 time on a super charger. So, I would say 99.9999999% of the time, our 2 EV's are charged at home, in a home with solar panels. I went from spending $500+ a month on gas to my electric bill increasing by $120.

And to the gentleman who keeps saying EV's are slower in handling, please look at the track times of the Tesla Model S Plaid, which is now a $90k vehicle (brand new) in the US. Look at the prices of the ICE vehicles it takes to be in the same conversation as the Plaid... This is essentially the gold standard for demonstrating speed and handling.

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now when it comes to any realistic speeds around town, it beat my TM3 or TMY, both with Acceleration Boost, it would take a super car, there are 0 ICE under $100k that can keep up period... I don't race on the street, but on the speeds one is capable of achieving without losing control, it isn't even close.

Also, a TM3 Performance gross weigh is 5,072 lbs. A 3 series BMW M3 Competition (comparable speed, but smaller than a TM3) gross weight is 4,780. So, I'm not sure where you are getting your figures about EV's being heavy...

If you are just going to repeat propaganda, you aren't helping anyone, or yourself. Please produce some facts. This thread is about people interested in or have EV's (to help those considering getting an EV). There are legitimate reasons NOT to get an EV, the points you are making are not...

Weight Sources:

BMW M3 Competition:

2023 BMW M3 Competition 4dr Rear-Wheel Drive Sedan Specs and Prices - Autoblog

2023 M3 Competition 4dr Rear-Wheel Drive Sedan specs (horsepower, torque, engine size, wheelbase), MPG and pricing.

www.autoblog.com

Tesla Model 3 Performance:

2023 Tesla Model 3 Performance 4dr All-Wheel Drive Sedan Specs and Prices - Autoblog

2023 Model 3 Performance 4dr All-Wheel Drive Sedan specs (horsepower, torque, engine size, wheelbase), MPG and pricing.

www.autoblog.com

Let's not go the other way either Yes a Tesla Plaid is fast at accelerating. But performance is about a lot more than a party trick acceleration. I'll have a slower car any day to go faster

Similarly, or worse actually, with the TM3 or TMY. Sure to the untrained who just plants their foot down it may seem a fast car. But actually there is a lot more to making a car actually fast.

It one of the things that really annoys me about my fellow EV drivers, too many of them never actually had a fast ICE based care before and they just don't get it. It is the same concept (in the UK) when there is a number plate change and people have their new cars and all of a sudden they get stuck in the overtaking lanes etc.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Looking at that list I'm seeing the Audi RS3 ($62k), BMW M2 ($63k), Chevy Camaro ZL1 ($75k) and Corvette w/Z51 package ($76k) all with faster times. This isn't to say that the Plaid is slow, just that it's not as if it occupies some echelon occupied by only six figure supercars. You can get the same or better track performance for well less than $90k. Now how useful that performance is to most drivers is very debatable. 99% of owners won't use it. I don't take my Hellcat to the extremes of its capabilities either. That being said, it's an absolute joy to drive and that V8 roar and supercharger whine are irreplaceable. I'd never trade it for an EV. My Grand Caravan on the other hand, that's a different story.

Exactly, or 'cheating' by using a track package which has way more impact than raw power, let alone way more laps of fun. Or a BMW M2, which is less than half the price to buy new. Or a VW Golf R / GTI at 1/3. And just like very few pay the extra for an ICE, very few do that for an EV.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Looking at that list I'm seeing the Audi RS3 ($62k), BMW M2 ($63k), Chevy Camaro ZL1 ($75k) and Corvette w/Z51 package ($76k) all with faster times. This isn't to say that the Plaid is slow, just that it's not as if it occupies some echelon occupied by only six figure supercars. You can get the same or better track performance for well less than $90k. Now how useful that performance is to most drivers is very debatable. 99% of owners won't use it. I don't take my Hellcat to the extremes of its capabilities either. That being said, it's an absolute joy to drive and that V8 roar and supercharger whine are irreplaceable. I'd never trade it for an EV. My Grand Caravan on the other hand, that's a different story.

I did watch a Plaid being tested around the Nordschleife for one of the car mags and the acceleration out of the corners was impressive and the big reason it had such an impressive lap time. Totally irrelevant for the average road I know, but cool to watch for those interested in cars I suppose. That’s the bonus at the moment with some EV’s and their ability to quickly accelerate. Every car can do 70mph, but it’s the acceleration from the lower speeds that makes the difference in everyday driving for me. Zipping around someone at the end of the slip road or on the motorway and then adjusting the speed again is beneficial for me. It’ll be an advantage that will be lost once EV’s have a larger adoption for sure.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Looking at that list I'm seeing the Audi RS3 ($62k), BMW M2 ($63k), Chevy Camaro ZL1 ($75k) and Corvette w/Z51 package ($76k) all with faster times. This isn't to say that the Plaid is slow, just that it's not as if it occupies some echelon occupied by only six figure supercars. You can get the same or better track performance for well less than $90k. Now how useful that performance is to most drivers is very debatable. 99% of owners won't use it. I don't take my Hellcat to the extremes of its capabilities either. That being said, it's an absolute joy to drive and that V8 roar and supercharger whine are irreplaceable. I'd never trade it for an EV. My Grand Caravan on the other hand, that's a different story.

You are correct, there are sports cars under the $100k mark that I said. I will note though that a TMS Plaid, is a full size family car. It is in the list with hyper/super cars, and a few sub $100k vehicles.

 

[YoitsTmac]

You are correct, there are sports cars under the $100k mark that I said. I will note though that a TMS Plaid, is a full size family car. It is in the list with hyper/super cars, and a few sub $100k vehicles.

That’s kind of the big point here. The TMS Plaid is meant to be a family car. It’s a family car and grocery getter that evokes zero emotions through the steering wheel. And if you genuinely track, you’ll kill your wallet with consumables because weight still has to follow physics and kills everything else (bushings, brakes, tires). As for the modern M3 point… that makes the Tesla about 25% heavier. Is that not substantial?? I consider this new gen BMW unreasonably heavy too for what it’s worth.

You buy a sports car to have fun in driving (re: RS3, M2, M3). All those cars can try and do normal things with some compromise. You buy a Tesla to do the normal things that can do sport things with some compromise. Two demographics/markets

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

It is interesting not many of the people who like the EVs like rocking the skid pad through the corners


Also interesting lots of the teslas on the freeway are speed limit or less 😂

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

You got to love stats and lobby groups presenting them in a way to make their case...

In the real world, I don't get subsidies on my electric, nor petrol. There is no additional charging and metering cost, nor a need for infrastructure, and no credits.

In comparison to the BMW M2C DCT we had, our Polestar 2 Pilot/Plus with Performance upgrade is 27.789% of our annual electricity bill with the same miles driven.

Mileage: 18,000 mile(s)
Fuel type: SuperUnleaded
Fuel price used for this calculation: 168.16 pence per liter
Mpg used for this calculation: 29.10 MPG
That is £4,744.99 for the BMW M2C.

In comparison, we used 4,050 kW for our Polestar @ £0.25996 per kWh. £1,040.81.

The capital cost of the cars are as good as the same. So a much faster and powerful car than a BMW M2C, and way cheaper to run. What's not to like!

What’s the skid pad & weight between the two?

 

[Tagbert]

It is interesting not many of the people who like the EVs like rocking the skid pad through the corners


Also interesting lots of the teslas on the freeway are speed limit or less 😂

It may be that many people don’t drive like they are racers, whether they drive EVs or not.

Much of the time when I’m driving on the freeway, the congestion is the limiting factor but even when it opens up, there are enough other cars that going much over the speed limit is not worth the risk. Now, out on a rural highway, things can open up considerably. Just watch out for a stray cow. (Or deer)

 

[cyb3rdud3]

What’s the skid pad & weight between the two?

No idea what you mean by 'skid pad'. Yes, the Polestar is heavier, also way more powerful, but no doubt about the M2C is much more fun to drive, but then again so is the Polestar in its class, especially compared to Tesla. Only an i4 M50 comes close. The Polestar is a rare EV, and perhaps even a car, in the modern world which relies on good engineering principles for its handling and not electronics. Hence, it is a joy to drive day to day.

 

[JT2002TJ]

That’s kind of the big point here. The TMS Plaid is meant to be a family car. It’s a family car and grocery getter that evokes zero emotions through the steering wheel. And if you genuinely track, you’ll kill your wallet with consumables because weight still has to follow physics and kills everything else (bushings, brakes, tires). As for the modern M3 point… that makes the Tesla about 25% heavier. Is that not substantial?? I consider this new gen BMW unreasonably heavy too for what it’s worth.

You buy a sports car to have fun in driving (re: RS3, M2, M3). All those cars can try and do normal things with some compromise. You buy a Tesla to do the normal things that can do sport things with some compromise. Two demographics/markets

I can stand behind this.

I got my TMY LR with AB because I wanted the best of both worlds. With a 2 year old and a bad neck/back from 2 rear end collisions within the last year, I need the ease of an SUV to get my son in and out of the car seat. I also wanted a fun sports car. I would have to spend $150k+ on an ICE suv that can keep up with a TMY. A TMY can keep up with almost every sports car I regularly pass on the road (I do live in Long Island NY, so I do see exotics regularly), and I can fit all the groceries I need to pick up. Oh, and I save about $300 per month on gas, and don't have to be out in the elements while fueling up 1x-2x a week. I just plug my wall charger in, and in <2 hours I am charged back up to 80%.

Tesla's aren't track cars, they family cars that have some track abilities that make them hard to beat, but the TM3 performance, and TMS/X (Plaid or not) can give any car a run for their money, from 1/2 their cost all the way to 3x the cost. They also can repeat their 1/4 mile times without having to make sure the launches are perfect (conditions and vehicle).

Most people in this world cannot afford to have a dedicated track car + a family car. Tesla's can do both at a high enough level to be in the same conversation as limited release sports cars, are there any other cars you can order today and pick up in >2 months that fit this? Oh, and also not pay a dealer surcharge in the amount of $10-$20k+? A TMS plaid will cost you $91k a TM3 Performance around $60k, anyone can order it, and get one today (if you are ok with existing inventory configurations). The vehicles in the same conversation are VERY hard to get, some require prior ownership to even get on a waiting list.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

No idea what you mean by 'skid pad'. Yes, the Polestar is heavier, also way more powerful, but no doubt about the M2C is much more fun to drive, but then again so is the Polestar in its class, especially compared to Tesla. Only an i4 M50 comes close. The Polestar is a rare EV, and perhaps even a car, in the modern world which relies on good engineering principles for its handling and not electronics. Hence, it is a joy to drive day to day.

Skid pad is how many Gs the car can hold going in a sight circle before it breaks traction, it’s a indicator of how good the vehicle will be in corners

Kinda like this

 

[vipergts2207]

I can stand behind this.

I got my TMY LR with AB because I wanted the best of both worlds. With a 2 year old and a bad neck/back from 2 rear end collisions within the last year, I need the ease of an SUV to get my son in and out of the car seat. I also wanted a fun sports car. I would have to spend $150k+ on an ICE suv that can keep up with a TMY. A TMY can keep up with almost every sports car I regularly pass on the road (I do live in Long Island NY, so I do see exotics regularly), and I can fit all the groceries I need to pick up. Oh, and I save about $300 per month on gas, and don't have to be out in the elements while fueling up 1x-2x a week. I just plug my wall charger in, and in <2 hours I am charged back up to 80%.

Tesla's aren't track cars, they family cars that have some track abilities that make them hard to beat, but the TM3 performance, and TMS/X (Plaid or not) can give any car a run for their money, from 1/2 their cost all the way to 3x the cost. They also can repeat their 1/4 mile times without having to make sure the launches are perfect (conditions and vehicle).

Most people in this world cannot afford to have a dedicated track car + a family car. Tesla's can do both at a high enough level to be in the same conversation as limited release sports cars, are there any other cars you can order today and pick up in >2 months that fit this? Oh, and also not pay a dealer surcharge in the amount of $10-$20k+? A TMS plaid will cost you $91k a TM3 Performance around $60k, anyone can order it, and get one today (if you are ok with existing inventory configurations). The vehicles in the same conversation are VERY hard to get, some require prior ownership to even get on a waiting list.

If I were in the market for an EV it wouldn't be a Tesla, as I'd rather not support Musk.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

If I were in the market for an EV it wouldn't be a Tesla, as I'd rather not support Musk.

Why?


Dude seems pretty cool to me, especially as automotive execs go


Makes cool tech, goal 1 is to get to Mars, is pretty consistently for freedom of speech and the constitution, even let Joe Rogan shoot his cyber truck (while smoking a cigar) with a broad head arrow which impressively it didn’t penetrate the door (normally they do)

 

[JT2002TJ]

If I were in the market for an EV it wouldn't be a Tesla, as I'd rather not support Musk.

Do you know if Musk has stock in other auto manufacturers? I wouldn't doubt that his investment portfolio includes all major auto manufacturers, so buying any vehicle, or many other products support him even if he isn't the majority shareholder or the frontman.

I buy a product based on how it serves my needs, not who the CEO is. There are a lot of hard-working people who work for the Tesla brands...

 

[vipergts2207]

Why?


Dude seems pretty cool to me, especially as automotive execs go


Makes cool tech, goal 1 is to get to Mars, is pretty consistently for freedom of speech and the constitution, even let Joe Rogan shoot his cyber truck (while smoking a cigar) with a broad head arrow which impressively it didn’t penetrate the door (normally they do)

The Twitter, err X, and Ukraine debacles have shown me enough about his character. I'm not looking to get the thread locked for politics so I'll just leave it at that. It was pretty entertaining to watch the guy essentially burn piles of his own money though lol.

Do you know if Musk has stock in other auto manufacturers? I wouldn't doubt that his investment portfolio includes all major auto manufacturers, so buying any vehicle, or many other products support him even if he isn't the majority shareholder or the frontman.

I buy a product based on how it serves my needs, not who the CEO is. There are a lot of hard-working people who work for the Tesla brands...

I'm sure lots of awful people own stock in companies whose products I buy. What about it? Doesn't mean I need to give money directly to the company he owns. You take an all or nothing, black and white mindset I guess?

If in the market for an EV, there are many products that would suit my needs, not just a Tesla. A Taycan would work just as well as a Model S for me. There are a lot of hard-working people who work for the other brands as well, so that point would seem to be inconsequential.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

The Twitter, err X, and Ukraine debacles have shown me enough about his character. I'm not looking to get the thread locked for politics so I'll just leave it at that. It was pretty entertaining to watch the guy essentially burn piles of his own money though lol.



I'm sure lots of awful people own stock in companies whose products I buy. What about it? Doesn't mean I need to give money directly to the company he owns. You take an all or nothing, black and white mindset I guess?

If in the market for an EV, there are many products that would suit my needs, not just a Tesla. A Taycan would work just as well as a Model S for me. There are a lot of hard-working people who work for the other brands as well, so that point would seem to be inconsequential.

So you buy a German car instead 😂

I think the logic isn’t super sound here, but to each their own

 

[vipergts2207]

So you buy a German car instead 😂

I think the logic isn’t super sound here, but to each their own

I own no German cars. But why do you have an issue with German cars, anyway? I'd love a 911 to complement my Hellcat. That's not anywhere in the current budget though.

It was funny watching you flip-flop from bashing Teslas and their owners when Musk was specifically brought up though. Cult of personality I guess.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Skid pad is how many Gs the car can hold going in a sight circle before it breaks traction, it’s a indicator of how good the vehicle will be in corners

Kinda like this

Ok, got you. A quick search reveals 0.92g according to Car & Driver. Can't say I've seen that as a measure or indicator in the European press anywhere.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I own no German cars. But why do you have an issue with German cars, anyway? I'd love a 911 to complement my Hellcat. That's not anywhere in the current budget though.

It was funny watching you flip-flop from bashing Teslas and their owners when Musk was specifically brought up though.

Musk = strange person and overly outspoken
German = a little thing called WWI and WWII

I have many friends who will NEVER own a German car because of the history. I have owned many German cars.

 

[vipergts2207]

Musk = strange person and overly outspoken
German = a little think called WWII

I have many friends who will NEVER own a German car because of the history. I have owned many German cars.

Riiiight, so people shouldn't buy a German car because of something that happened almost a century ago and which those responsible are all dead. By that token I guess nobody should buy Japanese products due to Pearl Harbor. Oh or American either, with slavery and all. Hopefully you can see how absolutely asinine and unserious that argument is...