The Car Thread ... !

[AlaskaMoose]

I think it’s very easy in most of the US to achieve. Maybe not in the remote parts. But probably a very small % of the population live there. Sorting out charging in places like California and NY would go a long way to reducing the pollution.
More difficult in the more remote areas like where you live agreed. But it can be done.

It would be prohibitively expensive to electrify a great portion of the remote US areas. Alaska, for example has a lot of Native (indigenous people) living in the most remote areas of Alaska. Some of these villages don't even have road access. Fuel, food, construction materials, and so on are flown-in. Villagers travel to other villages by boat during the summer, and snowmobile during the winter. Most of the inhabitants are concentrated in the cities and larger towns in Alaska, so electrification is possible in these areas. However, at least in Alaska, it would be extremely difficult-if not impossible-to survive without fuel (aircraft fuel, heating fuel, gasoline, diesel fuel...).

In the rest of the US rural areas where farming, mining, fishing (coastal areas), commercial and local transportation, industries, etc. are taking place... EV's aren't the answer, probably because of the very long distances traveled to deliver products of various kinds from one place to the other. It is a lot simple for people living and working in the city to think that EV's will fill all the needs of all regions around the world, but it isn't simple at all. All the major US and local industries depend on various fuels (commercial transportation (by air, land, and sea) mining, fishing, tourism, private travel industries (by air, land, and sea), the US military (air, land, and sea), and so on.

On a personal level (for me), driving an EV is not going to happen, unless I decide that I want another "toy" to enjoy during an occasional drive on a sunny day. In other words, driving for enjoyment during the summer, or a luxury. Also, if I were to buy and EV I would need to buy a house with a garage large enough to park five cars (the EV, two trucks, a car, and one SUV), plus an UTV, and ATV that has a snow plow in front. The travel trailer stays outside on one of the driveways, plus a 12' and another 16' flatbed trailers

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

It would be prohibitively expensive to electrify a great portion of the remote US areas. Alaska, for example has a lot of Native (indigenous people) living in the most remote areas of Alaska. Some of these villages don't even have road access. Fuel, food, construction materials, and so on are flown-in. Villagers travel to other villages by boat during the summer, and snowmobile during the winter. Most of the inhabitants are concentrated in the cities and larger towns in Alaska, so electrification is possible in these areas. However, at least in Alaska, it would be extremely difficult-if not impossible-to survive without fuel (aircraft fuel, heating fuel, gasoline, diesel fuel...).

In the rest of the US rural areas where farming, mining, fishing (coastal areas), commercial and local transportation, industries, etc. are taking place... EV's aren't the answer, probably because of the very long distances traveled to deliver products of various kinds from one place to the other. It is a lot simple for people living and working in the city to think that EV's will fill all the needs of all regions around the world, but it isn't simple at all. All the major US and local industries depend on various fuels (commercial transportation (by air, land, and sea) mining, fishing, tourism, private travel industries (by air, land, and sea), the US military (air, land, and sea), and so on.

On a personal level (for me), driving an EV is not going to happen, unless I decide that I want another "toy" to enjoy during an occasional drive on a sunny day. In other words, driving for enjoyment during the summer, or a luxury. Also, if I were to buy and EV I would need to buy a house with a garage large enough to park five cars (the EV, two trucks, a car, and one SUV), plus an UTV, and ATV that has a snow plow in front. The travel trailer stays outside on one of the driveways, plus a 12' and another 16' flatbed trailers

In that case I’d imagine in 10 years time when the car industry is producing and releasing some innovative new vehicles, some regions will be keeping the older cars alive. Maybe the American brands will continue to produce ICE cars for select markets? Fuel is going to get very expensive by that point though as hundreds of millions of motorists in more densely populated countries will be using different technologies. It must be a worry for some.

 

[Apple fanboy]

In that case I’d imagine in 10 years time when the car industry is producing and releasing some innovative new vehicles, some regions will be keeping the older cars alive. Maybe the American brands will continue to produce ICE cars for select markets? Fuel is going to get very expensive by that point though as hundreds of millions of motorists in more densely populated countries will be using different technologies. It must be a worry for some.

I struggle to find a petrol station near where I live. In 10 years I imagine I’m the UK that will be very challenging.

Those regions like @AlaskaMoose live in do represent a very small percentage of the earth’s population. Yes EV’s might not be the answer but as you say the cost of oil is only going up. Yes it’s cheaper in the US compared to other countries, but even there the price is rising.
With congestion charges in many major cities (and the rest will follow), petrol will become less viable for many.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I struggle to find a petrol station near where I live. In 10 years I imagine I’m the UK that will be very challenging.

Those regions like @AlaskaMoose live in do represent a very small percentage of the earth’s population. Yes EV’s might not be the answer but as you say the cost of oil is only going up. Yes it’s cheaper in the US compared to other countries, but even there the price is rising.
With congestion charges in many major cities (and the rest will follow), petrol will become less viable for many.

I think the ammonia combustion engine is a viable alternative in future to run alongside EV’s. I know Toyota and the German makers are developing it, and it doesn’t pollute. Maybe this sort of technology will be better for the remote regions. Petrol and diesel cars are certainly on borrowed time.

 

[SteveManila1960]

I have not owned a car since early 2012 no need in Singapore and Philippines. However, for the first time in a long time I drove Mum's Fiesta today just to Tesco. Have to say it was quite fun actually.

Just takes me back to the life before and all the bad decisions I made over cars. I mean really? These are just a few bad decisions.

Triumph TR7 convertible with all the associated rust and poor reliability.
Fiat X-19 again rust.
Lancia Beta HPE and a Coupe. No rust surprisingly but unreliable.......twice.
Datsun 280ZX reliable but not cheap to run.
Rover 827i Coupe. Amazing Honda V6 engine everything built around it hmmmmm not so good!
BMW 850i this is the one. If I won the lottery I would buy one and restore it as new. No Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin. 850i my favourite car ever. However stupidly expensive to run.

 

[Richard8655]

I think back to my Dad's 1962 Triumph TR-3. A true, very British, British Leyland sports car. Leaky soft top, noisy, and don't forget the manual choke when starting. Half the time was spent with the mechanic. But you knew this was the real deal.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

In that case I’d imagine in 10 years time when the car industry is producing and releasing some innovative new vehicles, some regions will be keeping the older cars alive. Maybe the American brands will continue to produce ICE cars for select markets? Fuel is going to get very expensive by that point though as hundreds of millions of motorists in more densely populated countries will be using different technologies. It must be a worry for some.

That is a future possibility (fuel being extremely expensive). But in reality, since there aren't infinite supplies of the materials needed to build batteries, these materials in turn will become extremely expensive. As we switch from one limited resource (oil) to other limited resources (materials used to build batteries), the latter will become expensive. As the ICE and aircraft fuel taxes disappear, the loss of revenue felt by the local and federal governments will be passed down to the consumer.

Everything, including electricity, will become more expensive. As we earn more each year, the cost of living continues increasing. For example, I still have some all-season hiking and general-use boots that are over 30 years old that are still in good shape. These boots were made in Germany and sold by Cabela's, a US company, and I purchased a few pairs through the years for $149.00 each. Then the price went up to $160.00 per pair, and today a similar pair of boots costs over $275.00. I remember 30 years ago buying leather dress shoes of high quality, made in Brazil, for under $60.00, but nowadays shoes of similar quality and workmanship cost over $200.00-if one is lucky to find them.

I could be wrong, but in my view the most economical is to use a numerous resources and technologies, not just to abandon the existing fuels and switch to electricity for automobile propulsion. For example:
-Lightweight internal combustion engines that surpass 50% thermal efficiency, aided by electric motors. This is already being done in Formula One racing, and several automobile manufacturers are already developing engines with high thermal efficiency.
-Cleaner fuel-burning engines that capture harmful exhausts.
-The use of hydrogen, natural gas, and other fuels for automobile propulsion.

 

[YoitsTmac]

I could be wrong, but in my view the most economical is to use a numerous resources and technologies, not just to abandon the existing fuels and switch to electricity for automobile propulsion. For example:
-Lightweight internal combustion engines that surpass 50% thermal efficiency, aided by electric motors. This is already being done in Formula One racing, and several automobile manufacturers are already developing engines with high thermal efficiency.
-Cleaner fuel-burning engines that capture harmful exhausts.
-The use of hydrogen, natural gas, and other fuels for automobile propulsion.

Formula one engines are as efficient as they are because they are manufactured to very expensive tolerances and are incredibly temperamental. I don’t know about the new ones but the old ones couldn’t start with cold oil because it would be too thick. Tolerances that tight that increase combustion efficiency make them impractical for the general market. To be honest I think we’re at a point where this is mostly it for efficiency. You can only optimize the combustion cycle so much.

I look forward to seeing what comes next. I don’t think electric is the future. It’s too infantile to see a future where it could be (temperature sensitivity, use for towing and for trucks), but I look forward to what’s next.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Formula one engines are as efficient as they are because they are manufactured to very expensive tolerances and are incredibly temperamental. I don’t know about the new ones but the old ones couldn’t start with cold oil because it would be too thick. Tolerances that tight that increase combustion efficiency make them impractical for the general market. To be honest I think we’re at a point where this is mostly it for efficiency. You can only optimize the combustion cycle so much.

I look forward to seeing what comes next. I don’t think electric is the future. It’s too infantile to see a future where it could be (temperature sensitivity, use for towing and for trucks), but I look forward to what’s next.

Still the same for F1 engines.

As for electric there will always be a small % of edge cases where it won’t work. But for the vast majority it works just fine. People just have to ‘Think Different’
I’m sure I’ve heard that slogan before???

 

[YoitsTmac]

Still the same for F1 engines.

As for electric there will always be a small % of edge cases where it won’t work. But for the vast majority it works just fine. People just have to ‘Think Different’
I’m sure I’ve heard that slogan before???

I don’t disagree at all.

I’m obviously a fan of gas. I think electric will be perfect for the majority of consumers. I think the point about costs is a valid one and I worry that the cost of a car will get passed down to everyone, car owner or not. But it’s all speculatory until we see it ironed out

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Formula one engines are as efficient as they are because they are manufactured to very expensive tolerances and are incredibly temperamental. I don’t know about the new ones but the old ones couldn’t start with cold oil because it would be too thick. Tolerances that tight that increase combustion efficiency make them impractical for the general market. To be honest I think we’re at a point where this is mostly it for efficiency. You can only optimize the combustion cycle so much.

I look forward to seeing what comes next. I don’t think electric is the future. It’s too infantile to see a future where it could be (temperature sensitivity, use for towing and for trucks), but I look forward to what’s next.

I too don't know about F1 engines other than the published articles relating their thermal efficiency surpassing 50%. But several automobile manufacturers are developing engines that are somewhere close to 50% thermal efficiency. Nisan claims 50% efficiency, and Toyota claims 42 thermal efficiency in one of their engines. But the thermal efficiency of F1 engines relate to fuel pre-chamber ignition (shown in the video, starting on 2:57 minutes):

 

[AlaskaMoose]

I don’t disagree at all.

I’m obviously a fan of gas. I think electric will be perfect for the majority of consumers. I think the point about costs is a valid one and I worry that the cost of a car will get passed down to everyone, car owner or not. But it’s all speculatory until we see it ironed out

Where electric falls short is for long range transportation (aircraft, haul trucks, long-hour shifts of heavy equipment operations, and so on). For example, haul trucks carry sufficient fuel to transport a heavy load of goods for long distances. If you were to build an electric truck capable of delivering the same load at the same distance reached by the ICE truck, then its battery (s) would be enormous and extremely heavy. This added weight decreases the eTruck's drive range, and cargo space would be reduced. An example: the enormous battery in a Hummer increases this vehicle weight to 9,000 pounds. Tow a heavy trailer with the Hummer, and its drive range is dramatically reduced.

I assume that electric cargo trucks are becoming increasingly popular in Europe since travel distances between cities are not very long, at least when compared to the US and Northern Canada? eTrucks would probably be perfect for delivering goods in and between cities, or anywhere where very long drive ranges aren't needed. These trucks are built lighter (smaller batteries), and can be driven for a few hours between charges. The same for electric automobiles. For example (just one of numerous), driving to work and back home, an EV is perfect if that is what the consumer wants, and can choose one depending on the drive range he or she desires.

 

[YoitsTmac]

Where electric falls short is for long range transportation (aircraft, haul trucks, long-hour shifts of heavy equipment operations, and so on). For example, haul trucks carry sufficient fuel to transport a heavy load of goods for long distances. If you were to build an electric truck capable of delivering the same load at the same distance reached by the ICE truck, then its battery (s) would be enormous and extremely heavy. This added weight decreases the eTruck's drive range, and cargo space would be reduced. I assume that electric trucks are becoming increasingly popular in Europe.

However, eTrucks would probably be perfect for delivering goods in and between cities or anywhere where very long drive ranges aren't needed. These trucks are built lighter (smaller batteries), and can be driven for a few hours between charges. The same for electric automobiles. For example (just one of numerous), driving to work and back home, an EV is perfect if that is what the consumer wants, and one can choose with one depending on the drive range one desires.

You’re basically touching on the big hole I was thinking of along with cold climates. And for that reason, I don’t think gas will go away (at least with existing technologies). I think electric will be especially great for last mile delivery, which is arguably where combustion is the least efficient and where regen could extend things even further. I think Amazon already has some rivian delivery vehicles here in the bay

 

[AlaskaMoose]

You’re basically touching on the big hole I was thinking of along with cold climates. And for that reason, I don’t think gas will go away (at least with existing technologies). I think electric will be especially great for last mile delivery, which is arguably where combustion is the least efficient and where regen could extend things even further. I think Amazon already has some rivian delivery vehicles here in the bay

A few electric bus experiments have been taking place in Alaska, one in Juneau where the weather and temperatures are milder than in the interior of Alaska. As I watched a video about an electric school bus in the interior of Alaska, according to the school bus driver, the problem is that it is difficult for the batteries to maintain both the cabin and the batteries warm during the winter. The electric buses in Juneau depend on federal grants to exist:

Despite Buying a 'Lemon,' Juneau, Alaska, Is Not Done with Electric Buses

Cold weather did take a big toll on range, but that and other bugs will get worked out as Alaska's commitment to electric public transit continues to grow.

www.caranddriver.com

I have no idea why a 40-foot bus was chosen instead of some small electric 10-passenger van. The University Of Alaska in Fairbanks has a small electric bus that is driven during the summer. Students enjoy the ride

 

[Tagbert]

Where electric falls short is for long range transportation (aircraft, haul trucks, long-hour shifts of heavy equipment operations, and so on). For example, haul trucks carry sufficient fuel to transport a heavy load of goods for long distances. If you were to build an electric truck capable of delivering the same load at the same distance reached by the ICE truck, then its battery (s) would be enormous and extremely heavy. This added weight decreases the eTruck's drive range, and cargo space would be reduced. An example: the enormous battery in a Hummer increases this vehicle weight to 9,000 pounds. Tow a heavy trailer with the Hummer, and its drive range is dramatically reduced.

I assume that electric cargo trucks are becoming increasingly popular in Europe since travel distances between cities are not very long, at least when compared to the US and Northern Canada? eTrucks would probably be perfect for delivering goods in and between cities, or anywhere where very long drive ranges aren't needed. These trucks are built lighter (smaller batteries), and can be driven for a few hours between charges. The same for electric automobiles. For example (just one of numerous), driving to work and back home, an EV is perfect if that is what the consumer wants, and can choose one depending on the drive range he or she desires.

Recent tests of the Tesla Semi Truck suggest that it (and competitors) will be more practical for long range hauling that you might expect.

Tesla Semi travels over 1,000 miles in a single day

A Tesla Semi electric truck traveled over 1,000 miles in a single day in a real-world test for a new...

electrek.co

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

or we could do cool stuff like this

Trident Iceni: the supercar that *almost* made it

A top speed of over 190mph, 660bhp... and a 2,000 mile range, Trident could still happen

www.topgear.com

 

[Apple fanboy]

Electric transit vans are a very common sight here in the UK. The congestion charges make them a very attractive option for DPD, UPS and the supermarkets.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Electric transit vans are a very common sight here in the UK. The congestion charges make them a very attractive option for DPD, UPS and the supermarkets.

As good as all vans from DPD, UPS and Amazon Prime in our area even outside of the ULEZ and Congestion zones are all electric.

But to be fair the 'proponents' aforementioned did acknowledge that the so called final mile delivery (doesn't have to be really just a mile it is just a saying...) does make a lot of sense to do it that way.

The area in which I'm buying a house doesn't give out (paid for) parking permits unless the vehicle is an EV.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Electric transit vans are a very common sight here in the UK. The congestion charges make them a very attractive option for DPD, UPS and the supermarkets.

A big drive behind that is also low noise operations in major cities across Europe which is a standard called PIEK Keur. I’ve worked with Mercedes, MAN and VW on technology to meet this standard which only permits 60db of noise after 11pm and up to 7am the following morning. They have been working with low noise combustion engines since about 2012 but now it’s moving towards electric. It’s not quite relevant in the UK yet but is in Germany, France, Spain and the Netherlands.

 

[Apple fanboy]

A big drive behind that is also low noise operations in major cities across Europe which is a standard called PIEK Keur. I’ve worked with Mercedes, MAN and VW on technology to meet this standard which only permits 60db of noise after 11pm and up to 7am the following morning. They have been working with low noise combustion engines since about 2012 but now it’s moving towards electric. It’s not quite relevant in the UK yet but is in Germany, France, Spain and the Netherlands.

Well that’s another bonus of electric. Much quieter than noisy diesels.

 

[JT2002TJ]

As good as all vans from DPD, UPS and Amazon Prime in our area even outside of the ULEZ and Congestion zones are all electric.

But to be fair the 'proponents' aforementioned did acknowledge that the so called final mile delivery (doesn't have to be really just a mile it is just a saying...) does make a lot of sense to do it that way.

The area in which I'm buying a house doesn't give out (paid for) parking permits unless the vehicle is an EV.

In Brooklyn NY (where I work), I am seeing more and more Amazon Rivian EVs.

Here is one from a few months back:

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Recent tests of the Tesla Semi Truck suggest that it (and competitors) will be more practical for long range hauling that you might expect.

Tesla Semi travels over 1,000 miles in a single day

A Tesla Semi electric truck traveled over 1,000 miles in a single day in a real-world test for a new...

electrek.co

That "study" as told by the article does not show the cargo weight, ambient temperatures, wind directions, and road inclines/declines. Semi trucks carry enormous loads for very long distances up/down hills, winter and summer. In my view Bill gates was correct when saying that the batteries in such a truck would be too heavy. Such a truck is designed to tow from one to three trailers, and tanks.

As I mentioned before, a gallon of fuel weights 6 pounds. Let's say that I fill the fuel tank in my Corolla: 13.2 gallons x 6 = 79.2 lbs contained in a small tank, which leaves more room for cargo. Then, when arriving at my destination, without refilling until the tank is nearly empty, the car is lighter by 79.2 pounds. There are lots of videos of towing with EV's, including the Hummer, Rivian, and so on in "youtube." Watch what happens to the electric trucks' ranges, even the most powerful ones, when towing 6,000 and 10,000-pound trailers. The Hummer weights 9,000 pounds , and its battery around 2,900 pounds.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

That "study" as told by the article does not show the cargo weight, ambient temperatures, wind directions, and road inclines/declines. Semi trucks carry enormous loads for very long distances up/down hills, winter and summer. In my view Bill gates was correct when saying that the batteries in such at truck would be too heavy. Such a truck is designed to tow from one to three trailers, and tanks.

As I mentioned before, a gallon of fuel weights 6 pounds. Let's say that I fill the fuel tank in my Corolla: 13.2 gallons x 6 = 79.2 lbs contained in a small tank, which leaves more room for cargo. Then, when arriving at my destination, without refilling until the tank is nearly empty, the car is lighter by 79.2 pounds. There are lots of videos of towing with EV's, including the Hummer, Rivian, and so on in "youtube." Watch what happens to the electric trucks' ranges, even the most powerful ones, when towing 6,000 and 10,000-pound trailers. The Hummer weights 9,000 pounds , and its battery around 2,900 pounds.

Careful saying anything bad about electric cars will get you banned around these parts 😂

 

[Tagbert]

That "study" as told by the article does not show the cargo weight, ambient temperatures, wind directions, and road inclines/declines. Semi trucks carry enormous loads for very long distances up/down hills, winter and summer. In my view Bill gates was correct when saying that the batteries in such a truck would be too heavy. Such a truck is designed to tow from one to three trailers, and tanks.

As I mentioned before, a gallon of fuel weights 6 pounds. Let's say that I fill the fuel tank in my Corolla: 13.2 gallons x 6 = 79.2 lbs contained in a small tank, which leaves more room for cargo. Then, when arriving at my destination, without refilling until the tank is nearly empty, the car is lighter by 79.2 pounds. There are lots of videos of towing with EV's, including the Hummer, Rivian, and so on in "youtube." Watch what happens to the electric trucks' ranges, even the most powerful ones, when towing 6,000 and 10,000-pound trailers. The Hummer weights 9,000 pounds , and its battery around 2,900 pounds.

Oh, I don’t consider that test to be definitive but it does suggest that such vehicles are more capable than we might have though before.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Careful saying anything bad about electric cars will get you banned around these parts 😂

That would be sad, since this thread is about cars in general. But I do have the concerns you have pointed out.
It is not that there can be eTrucks that can't be driven long distances, since this is quite possible. But what Bill Gates said about large eTrucks (haul trucks) requiring an enormous battery that's too heavy, is true. Battery weight and bulk is the primary reason for not using batteries to propel aircraft. Just look at the most powerful Tesla batteries used in the long range and sports cars: these high capacity batteries surpass 1,000 pounds.