Wrong. I do love to take photos especially with a good camera. Not so much with a phone or iPad.
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The future of digital cameras
- Thread starter jwolf6589
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I find I excel at making the mundane from a good shot…. ???
Do you have to be so combative all the time? The rest of us have a very lovely and thoughtful conversation. Pages and pages worth. You often name call us and yet you are the one who refuses to engage in any sort of meaningful chat.
Perhaps you could use your nice voice and explain your position better because you leave most of us feeling very confused. My 13 year old son has more manners.
Combative? Pointed out your incorrect assertion about me and I get this speech. Geesh!
You do see that this reply is exactly what we mean about the way you treat us right? You didn’t point it out, you stated it was wrong come on man, work with us a little here. Pointed out would suggest there was at least some kind of expansion on why it was wrong or in which way it was wrong as opposed to the blunt “no, you are wrong” retort.
Ahh, I am getting dragged into the vortex again, I tried to reboot and go back to being polite and helpful thinking maybe I was being part of the problem. Alas, no…
What kind of work do you do that requires you to take pictures on your iPhone every day? Surely they would invest in an actual camera for you if it were part of your role? Are you an assessor of some sort? Or a spy? Please say spy that would be cool…
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Actually if only one of us could see this they could be wrong. But the fact is many of us have noticed this rather abrupt style you seem to adopt. I’d say maybe you should look at some of your posts and think about how they cone across to lots of us.
One thing I will note is that the OP has a knack for bringing out interesting discussions among us regardless of his own abilities and interest or lack thereof in terms of actual photography! We've all gotten to know each other a little better through some of these, haven't we, and that's pretty cool.
Wow, OP is quite the traveler, too: Alaska and now California, all within a few months' time! Some of us are fortunate if we are able to travel away on a nice $$$$ trip away from home even once a year....
Vacations are a mixed bag, too, when it comes to shooting; I find that when I'm with friends and we're doing various things that I'm much less likely to be able to do any in-depth shooting, as my attention is being split in various directions and we're often busy doing this and that, going here, going there, so that no one would have the time or patience to stand around waiting for me to spend an hour or two exploring a particularly interesting photographic subject! A few quick shots here, a few quick shots there is more often what happens, and thus dictates my choice of gear when preparing for a trip. Photographic trips with other photographers, of course, are a different story, since we are all focused on the same reasons for the trip: spending loads of time shooting, shooting, shooting......
Wow, OP is quite the traveler, too: Alaska and now California, all within a few months' time! Some of us are fortunate if we are able to travel away on a nice $$$$ trip away from home even once a year....
Vacations are a mixed bag, too, when it comes to shooting; I find that when I'm with friends and we're doing various things that I'm much less likely to be able to do any in-depth shooting, as my attention is being split in various directions and we're often busy doing this and that, going here, going there, so that no one would have the time or patience to stand around waiting for me to spend an hour or two exploring a particularly interesting photographic subject! A few quick shots here, a few quick shots there is more often what happens, and thus dictates my choice of gear when preparing for a trip. Photographic trips with other photographers, of course, are a different story, since we are all focused on the same reasons for the trip: spending loads of time shooting, shooting, shooting......
Actually my assertion was not wrong. You do not value the same things that we do in photography.
You want a photo to record things. We want a photo because we enjoy working with our cameras, and also to share the end result. I put no judgment value on either but they are very different thought processes.
You have yet to state what makes a photo good or bad in your opinion. And your opinion is your own, you can’t be wrong. But in countless threads and posts you have not stated anything about why you feel photography is meaningful to you. You have left us to draw our own conclusions and when we do so, you state “wrong.”
It’s called a conversation and it goes back and forth. You do not converse. You combat.
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Prior to COVID I was at breaking point having been travelling pretty much constantly for 17 years for work. When COVID hit in 2020, that couldn’t have come at a better time for me mentally. It gave me a much needed rest from air travel.
Trying to be careful as I realise it is a first world problem and a bit whoop-de-do look at you… but there is a big difference between travelling on your own volition vs travelling for work. If I list some of the amazing places I have been lucky enough to go to, then it is a bit show off but some of them were literally airport->hotel->office->hotel->airport.
I have set foot on 4 of the 7 continents. I went to Hawaii for a long weekend - not so amazing until you factor in that I live in Scotland. I once flew to Singapore for a 2 hour meeting and came straight home because of personal commitments - never ever try that unless you want to try the ultimate in jetlag experiences - it felt like lunchtime for three days straight. What I learned through it all is that I should have taken up photography as a hobby BEFORE going to these places…. As since taking up photography, I have narrowed my wandering and I would dearly love to go back to such amazing places as Singapore and Delhi.
So don’t worry about not travelling, just make the most of now wherever you are.
The older I'm getting the less likely I am to be enthused about traveling all that frequently or for great lengths of time.....especially in today's somewhat tense flying environment with frequent episodes of unruly passengers I'm just as happy to stay off airplanes! Flying has really become a hassle in general and downright nasty at times. No, thanks!
I do enjoy road trips, though, and eventually at some point this summer or fall am probably going to hit the road for a few days; just haven't decided when or where or with whom yet.....
I do enjoy road trips, though, and eventually at some point this summer or fall am probably going to hit the road for a few days; just haven't decided when or where or with whom yet.....
Road trips…. Now we are talking…. You live on a great section of rock to do a road trip. I would love to do something like Salt Lake City to Moab to Mexican Hat to Monument valley to Bryce, Page AZ to Phoenix or Tucson to Vegas to Death Valley to Lee vining to Yosemite to San Francisco with my wife and kids to retrace some of my adventures and get to see them for the first time again through their eyes….
Do enjoy when you hit the road. Trouble with travelling by plane is which lenses to pack! No such issues in a car.
Any camera is a good camera if you know how to use it. You seem to give the impression that you rely on the gear rather than on the skill and you keep defending it as something good. Its not.
A good photographer will take amazing picture with an iPhone and I dare to say if we give you the best camera in the world you wouldn't be able to get even close. Its not meant to be an insult but rather to point out the differences in photography.
Your defensive attitude and stubbornness in this thread is not helping you to grow. Plenty of talent around here with the desire to help.
So instead of trying to tell us what YOU think you KNOW try to soak in all the good advice everyone is telling you here.
You are clearly at the very beginning of the photography craft so it will do you good to listen instead of pointing out inaccurate statements.
Or, you can continue what you are doing and eventually most people will stop giving you advice because you will not "deserve" it.
The choice is yours.
A good photographer will take amazing picture with an iPhone and I dare to say if we give you the best camera in the world you wouldn't be able to get even close. Its not meant to be an insult but rather to point out the differences in photography.
Your defensive attitude and stubbornness in this thread is not helping you to grow. Plenty of talent around here with the desire to help.
So instead of trying to tell us what YOU think you KNOW try to soak in all the good advice everyone is telling you here.
You are clearly at the very beginning of the photography craft so it will do you good to listen instead of pointing out inaccurate statements.
Or, you can continue what you are doing and eventually most people will stop giving you advice because you will not "deserve" it.
The choice is yours.
What I see here is a discussion of personal ideologies; a set of of ideologies that the OP has on photography and a different set of ideologies from different people here on what they believe photography should ought to be. And to me, it seemed to be a contest to debate whose ideologies hold the ultimate and absolute truth. Which is why we see these salvos between the OP and various posters; frustrated as to why no one is listening to each other's ideologies and would rather opt to discount and scape goat other's ideologies as personal opinion. Well in a way, ideologies are ideas that all of us accepted and committed to being the truth and the absolute truth. Which is sometimes why we get so emotional to defend our own ideologies and sometimes want to impose, through persuasive means, to accept one's set of ideologies on other people who disagree with us.
You can say that in this world, we always have 2 polar opposites to represent a particular subject matter. In photography, we have 2 polar opposites much like the Ying and Yang in Taoism. If we carefully examine this world, we can see that this world works by presenting 2 polar opposites.
So, we have photographers, like the OP, who represent one of the 2 polar opposites which treat photography as a recording practice. And then we have another set of photographers who represent the other opposite, which is that they would take photography as a creative practice. The recording photographers, which is the dominant group of people with cell phones, can not see why you need to go beyond recording and into the finer art aspects of photography and the creative photographers can not understand why these recording photographers would just stop and not go beyond the creative aspect. But what is true is that we are all experiencing based on what photography ideologies we had embraced and sometimes, some people may take these ideologies further and preach these ideologies as the ultimate absolute truth. This is what we are seeing with the OP and what I am seeing from those who are arguing against the OP. The Ying photographers only see the Ying aspect of photography and are blind or disinterested in wanting to see the Yang side of photography. And yet we have the Yang photographers who could not see the experience the Ying photographers are experiencing just simply recording and sharing and of course the Yang photographers can't understand why the Ying photographers can not see the benefits of Yang photography.
Over 3 decades of photography; I've met many photographers who are either Ying or Yang in photography and I finally decided to just respect their free will to be who they want to be. The Ying sees Yang as polar opposites and vice versa. But I have seen talented photographers like the late Galen Rowell who sees Ying and Yang photography as complementary and not polar opposites and during some of his late seminars with people trying to draw Galen into the Ying vs Yang debate. He would always wistfully defer that to his work by demonstrating how he incorporated the recording aspect with the creative aspect; thus demonstrating the synergy of 2 forces can provide for the advancement of photography.
And what is also true is that successful photographers I had met and worked with throughout the decades had taken both of these polar opposites and complemented them and not make them or pit them against each other. That never worked, because the 2 polar opposites of photography are always there. It's how you see these 2 as either polar opposites or 2 complementary forces in photography, because photography is both recording and creative. We record events and for some take it a step further and make it creative by taking the best of both.
You can say that in this world, we always have 2 polar opposites to represent a particular subject matter. In photography, we have 2 polar opposites much like the Ying and Yang in Taoism. If we carefully examine this world, we can see that this world works by presenting 2 polar opposites.
So, we have photographers, like the OP, who represent one of the 2 polar opposites which treat photography as a recording practice. And then we have another set of photographers who represent the other opposite, which is that they would take photography as a creative practice. The recording photographers, which is the dominant group of people with cell phones, can not see why you need to go beyond recording and into the finer art aspects of photography and the creative photographers can not understand why these recording photographers would just stop and not go beyond the creative aspect. But what is true is that we are all experiencing based on what photography ideologies we had embraced and sometimes, some people may take these ideologies further and preach these ideologies as the ultimate absolute truth. This is what we are seeing with the OP and what I am seeing from those who are arguing against the OP. The Ying photographers only see the Ying aspect of photography and are blind or disinterested in wanting to see the Yang side of photography. And yet we have the Yang photographers who could not see the experience the Ying photographers are experiencing just simply recording and sharing and of course the Yang photographers can't understand why the Ying photographers can not see the benefits of Yang photography.
Over 3 decades of photography; I've met many photographers who are either Ying or Yang in photography and I finally decided to just respect their free will to be who they want to be. The Ying sees Yang as polar opposites and vice versa. But I have seen talented photographers like the late Galen Rowell who sees Ying and Yang photography as complementary and not polar opposites and during some of his late seminars with people trying to draw Galen into the Ying vs Yang debate. He would always wistfully defer that to his work by demonstrating how he incorporated the recording aspect with the creative aspect; thus demonstrating the synergy of 2 forces can provide for the advancement of photography.
And what is also true is that successful photographers I had met and worked with throughout the decades had taken both of these polar opposites and complemented them and not make them or pit them against each other. That never worked, because the 2 polar opposites of photography are always there. It's how you see these 2 as either polar opposites or 2 complementary forces in photography, because photography is both recording and creative. We record events and for some take it a step further and make it creative by taking the best of both.
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I respectfully disagree with this. My teenage daughter likes to take photos just to record things with her friends, memory keeping if you will. She has zero interest in learning how to use a manual exposure camera and wants to literally point and shoot. She actually prefers to shoot film, which I note only because it keeps track of how many images she takes, not because it is better or worse than digital. She recently took a week long trip with friends and came home with seven rolls to be developed. We had her film developed and scanned and I loved looking at the world through her eyes, getting to see her trip and her experiences with friends. I didn't care about images being out of focus or crooked like I would if I were giving a portfolio review. I am perfectly capable of separating the two types of photographers.
While I would love for her to learn more, I am happy that she is recording her life regardless. I look back fondly of photos I took at her age and they are no less precious to me now, despite their 1980s point and shoot/flash vibe (actually very similar to what my daughter shot ?). If someone similar came to MacRumors and posted images like that, sharing a mini-travelogue, with no desire to learn photography, but excited to have been somewhere and wanted to share the images, I would welcome them with open arms and celebrate their "yin-ness." Collectively we have re-iterated time and time again throughout the forum that we don't care what gear you use or what your purpose is, only that you enjoy it, and if you ask questions to be respectful of the answers given, and hopefully to share some work along the way.
That Mr. Wolf wants only to record his trips (which apparently is "wrong," as he pointedly said to me, but still with no disclosure as to his true purpose -- recording/memory-keeping/artistic view/capturing light/shooting landscapes/who actually knows because he won't say), is not a problem to those of us in the photo community here. But he comes and asks questions, then NEVER likes the answer. The problem isn't with his approach to photography, to be a "happy snapper;" in fact there are many who participate regularly in the POTD threads with iphone photos of their pets, with little regard to photographic principles. Those people are welcomed here, new photographers to advanced and professional. The problem is that while we see his vantage point, he refuses even respect us as people, let alone as skilled photographers offering advice and wisdom that many people pay for in classes.
The yin and the yang are both welcomed on this board. All we ask for is equal respect.
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I don’t know if it really matters what photography means to each of us. Even though it’s a good discussion, that’s not the root of this issue, IMO. It probably doesn’t even matter if one actually enjoys the process or shares the results. I would even venture to guess that for all the posters in POTD, we all have some different reasons for posting and sharing…and that’s perfectly fine! Quite honestly, I don’t recall this ever even becoming an obstacle until someone wills their reasoning on the rest of the group. I don’t think it matters who you are, no one seems to care for that form of social dynamic, or at least to be on the receiving end. No, I don’t think we’ve even be in this deadlock if someone wouldn’t ask questions and then proceed to discount the answers as irrelevant. That’s called a one sided conversation, and that’s why I threw in the towel.
Or just post some photos even better!
I'm not a Galen Rowell quality photographer, but I'd like to think that I can at least marry the two concepts.
I do WANT memories of places I go, whether in my back yard or 1000 miles away. I spoke earlier of the story BEHIND a photo being important to me, and that I think falls into the category of "recording practice."
At the same time, when I'm gathering memories, I'm on the look-out for creative and interesting ways I can show those memories. Maybe it's putting that extra "polish" on a composition that others may take, or focusing on details not everyone notices, or even just showing something in a way that others may not think to represent it. I'm not saying I'm necessarily GOOD at it, but it's something I try to do.
When friends and family travel with me, I'm obligated to take the "Okay, everyone get in this picture" photos since "Good camera=good pictures" and things like that, but I'll also enjoy taking a candid portrait of someone I'm traveling with in an interesting environment or backdrop.
And yes, taking things to the next level in that respect does need some knowledge of how things work, and equipment that you can fully control and that you know how to use(notice I didn't say "better") is key to that. For the "better" part, pull up Galen Rowell's gear bag.
I mentioned it either in this thread or in another similar thread, but he used some cameras and lenses that many "camera nerds"(and I'm putting myself in that category) might turn up their noses at. As an example, he was known to use a Nikon FM10. This is a cheap plasticy manual focus, manual exposure, manual advance film body with a +/0/- meter read-out. If you've used an FM or FM2, it feels like a toy piece of crap. None the less, it has everything he needed and weighs a fraction of what an FM2, much less his other favored F4, weighs. Similarly, the 20mm f/4 lens is optically probably the worst 20mm Nikon has made, with loads of distortion and vignetting plus it's slow. Still, though, it's small and light, so he was more likely to haul it with him.
On another point of the crossover between documentary and creativity-my wife and I just a few days ago FINALLY put together our wedding album. She'd had 700-some-odd photos printed as 4x6s, and we spent(no kidding) a couple of days sorting, culling, ordering, and everything else to put together the "story" of the day. We also had mixed in there some photos others had taken and given us(I think the photographer had a little over 500). Even though the photos are inherently "documenting a memory" of the occasion, the photographers creativity was amazing in many of them. Things like posed formals are not exactly an outlet for that-arrange people, light it right, click, and on to the next. There's a whole other dimension, though, from spotting details worth remembering or to just seeing that perfect candid that many others would overlook. One of my favorite "outside the box" ones(or maybe it's a bread and butter shot now, but still, I liked it) was a walking-down-the-aisle photo(when I photographed weddings, what I had drilled in to me as the single most important shot of the day) but rather than just a simple head-on shot(there were plenty of those too) he had taken a picture of someone holding their phone out for a photo and the phone in perfect focus while everything else a see of blurriness. I wouldn't have thought to take it.
We are here to share our experiences, but in order to share those experiences, we need to convert what we experience in photography into a series of words and sentences so we can communicate that to others. The only way we can relate to the words and sentences is that we need to have a similar experience to relate to those words communicated.
Let me give you an example of an apple. If you heard someone explaining what an apple taste like in words, you can easily relate to those words only if you also had eaten an apple sometime in the past. However, can we not all agree that WORDS ALONE can not give anyone an authentic physical experience of anything. Otherwise, why bother eating an apple if you can taste it by reading the words description. Why go to Italy if one can get the actual experience reading only the Lonely Planet guide on Italy. Why have physical sex when one can get the actual experience simply by reading the words.
So can we not all agree that you simply can not get the experience of what others want to share UNLESS you also have a similar experience to relate to. This is how we can relate to anyone's post and get the actual experience of what the person wants to share through having a similar experience as the OP. How this process works is that we take someone's words and then interpret the words with our rational minds and then form an experience all in the mind. The way to relate this experience is to compare experiences we had in our memory if we can relate to that experience we interpret from the OP's words. And we don't.
What the OP wants is to promote his version of what an apple should taste like without taking a bite on the apple and that all of us are trying, in futility, to give him the actual experience of what an apple should taste like. But don't you see the problem? You can not give anyone the actual experience of an apple. Words themselves can only point to the thing. The person actually need to take that bite.
That was exactly what Galen Rowell did in his show and tell conferences. He invited skeptics like myself to join him on his classes; go outdoors and taste the apple and get the actual physical experiences. I was like the OP myself, skeptical and being stubborn and somewhat arrogant to Galen. It was after when Galen said -- Join me and taste the apple, aka "Mountain Light" was when I immediately can relate to now and I had to thank Galen for being my mentor. Galen saw the challenges in me like I see a similar challenge with the OP, because I could relate to the OP through my own similar physical experiences of what the OP is going through now.
What the OP is really going through is his stage in life in photography. What led me to go beyond the amateur level of photography was a series of setbacks I had in the late 80s during then the great recession and I was laid off working in electronics and my prospects weren't high to get another job. I then switched career into assistant photographer (basically a gear runner) and I remembered going into the interview, the photographer was asking me about focal plane shutter, leaf shutter, depth of field, circle of confusion and I was barely able to understand what he said let alone answer succinctly. Thankfully, I got hired and I learned the trade. I went into the serious side of photography because I needed to eat and pay the bills. Photography to me was food on the table. That was my switch from the Ying of photography to the Yang side so I had both experiences and had travelled the world for assignments. That was neat.
What I realized is that, unless you have physical actual experiences that you can relate to other photographers, you will always disagree because that's not what we form as experiences in our minds that can connect with other photographers. This is why it's pointless to try to engage and push ideas, because as long as the person isn't willing to bite the apple and have actual experiences of what the apple taste like after hearing what the apple can potentially taste like, you're all wasting your time.
And that's what I meant to share.
Let me give you an example of an apple. If you heard someone explaining what an apple taste like in words, you can easily relate to those words only if you also had eaten an apple sometime in the past. However, can we not all agree that WORDS ALONE can not give anyone an authentic physical experience of anything. Otherwise, why bother eating an apple if you can taste it by reading the words description. Why go to Italy if one can get the actual experience reading only the Lonely Planet guide on Italy. Why have physical sex when one can get the actual experience simply by reading the words.
So can we not all agree that you simply can not get the experience of what others want to share UNLESS you also have a similar experience to relate to. This is how we can relate to anyone's post and get the actual experience of what the person wants to share through having a similar experience as the OP. How this process works is that we take someone's words and then interpret the words with our rational minds and then form an experience all in the mind. The way to relate this experience is to compare experiences we had in our memory if we can relate to that experience we interpret from the OP's words. And we don't.
What the OP wants is to promote his version of what an apple should taste like without taking a bite on the apple and that all of us are trying, in futility, to give him the actual experience of what an apple should taste like. But don't you see the problem? You can not give anyone the actual experience of an apple. Words themselves can only point to the thing. The person actually need to take that bite.
That was exactly what Galen Rowell did in his show and tell conferences. He invited skeptics like myself to join him on his classes; go outdoors and taste the apple and get the actual physical experiences. I was like the OP myself, skeptical and being stubborn and somewhat arrogant to Galen. It was after when Galen said -- Join me and taste the apple, aka "Mountain Light" was when I immediately can relate to now and I had to thank Galen for being my mentor. Galen saw the challenges in me like I see a similar challenge with the OP, because I could relate to the OP through my own similar physical experiences of what the OP is going through now.
What the OP is really going through is his stage in life in photography. What led me to go beyond the amateur level of photography was a series of setbacks I had in the late 80s during then the great recession and I was laid off working in electronics and my prospects weren't high to get another job. I then switched career into assistant photographer (basically a gear runner) and I remembered going into the interview, the photographer was asking me about focal plane shutter, leaf shutter, depth of field, circle of confusion and I was barely able to understand what he said let alone answer succinctly. Thankfully, I got hired and I learned the trade. I went into the serious side of photography because I needed to eat and pay the bills. Photography to me was food on the table. That was my switch from the Ying of photography to the Yang side so I had both experiences and had travelled the world for assignments. That was neat.
What I realized is that, unless you have physical actual experiences that you can relate to other photographers, you will always disagree because that's not what we form as experiences in our minds that can connect with other photographers. This is why it's pointless to try to engage and push ideas, because as long as the person isn't willing to bite the apple and have actual experiences of what the apple taste like after hearing what the apple can potentially taste like, you're all wasting your time.
And that's what I meant to share.
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Let's put it a different way. Mr. Wolf doesn't use many words, and those that he does use aren't particularly nice. And while a picture is worth a thousand words, he doesn't share those either.
Which is kind of the point of a photography sub forum.