The Mac Pro Criticism

[Simplybetter]

Or do you really know what the price will be?

I wish i did know. I know it will not be "Base" as it is "Pro".

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The very fact that this is a single CPU machine indicates it's not a pro level workstation.

Sure it may be 12 core, but it COULD be 24 core.

Basically it's the desktop headless mac that people have been asking for for years. It's not a disaster, but the limited upgrades (only 4 memory slots and 1 CPU) clearly indicate it's not a pro level workstation.

Forget the thunderbolt vs. internal crap, the above is not upgradable outside the box.

I am however glad that they at least put effort into developing it, and the engineers came up with some cool stuff, I just hope in the future they will go bigger for performance.

It's not what it will be (faster ram performance, bandwidth, etc) compared to now, it's what it COULD have been if they had gone dual CPU, more memory slots, etc.

Unless you want to run a super high end server why the hell would you need 24 cores? 7 teraflops of computing power is more than enough for any professional workstation.

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Mac Pro is traditionally the "modifiable Mac". What we have here is a supped up iMac without a monitor...

Tim Cook doesn't know the first thing about his business.

Since when did the last Mac Pro come with a monitor? Never. Tim Cook obviously knows a whole lot more about Apple than you.

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lots of people spouting off about what "pro" means.

to people in video and audio, it means support for future *and* legacy things that people and companies have dumped tens of thousands of dollars into.

I like this mac pro as a design exercise. However, i'd like to see some additional hardware *from apple* that can leverage their buying power and expertise to expand Raids, JBOD's and PCIe cards.

I'm interested to know the geekbench score of this machine vs a 2x x5690 chipped 2009-2012. Obviously the "bus/qpi" and ram will be much faster. And video.

For those on the Avid fence of native tb vs the PCIe cards.. the cards still have lower latency.

Regardless, it's not like the 2010/2012 mac pros simply stop working when the new one comes out. Could be an interesting transition. Or not.

YMMV.

If you always work to existing legacy technology you become medicore, you will never move forward.

 

[Tesselator]

I suspect it may do well with those of us who want machines that are powerful AND well designed. Will that be enough? Who knows?

Dense packing powerful boxes has been done by folks in the past. Evolutionary, but revolutionary not even in the slightest.

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The new MacPro in blue? Oh, never mind... that's the other compact powerhouse they tried. I taught a CG class with those in - like 10 or 12 years ago.




More relavant maybe:

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[Simplybetter]

RAIDS (with which I deal in quantities more than 10 years ago) are often complex and not completely reliable unless you buy the very top of the line.

RAIDs create their own problems due to complexity Sometimes they create performance problems because their caching policies don't exactly match the ones used by filesystems, and often you find them working against each others.

Of course ZFS is a solution (much better than a RAID) but it has its share of performance issues as well, because integrity and performance are often conflicting goals.

Hard disks aren't that reliable anyway, and quality has gone down in the recent years.

If you were going a Mac Pro that is top of the line so you would be prepared to buy a top of the raid array.

 

[theSeb]

We had those lying around in the CS labs. Neat little things.

 

[Simplybetter]

Maybe I come from another planet, but I thought the ability to plan longterm hardware investments was a main issue for businesses?

At my work, the hardware (linuxbased) is rotated out in a four year cycle. Planning ahead is crucial. When supporting several hundred machines, half of them 2-4 display workstations, you want as little change as possible from year to year. The actual workstations is a small fraction of the total cost here. Just upgrading to a new linux version is a nine month project with loads of testing and rewritting inhouse codes.

However, this is an area where Apple has a bad track record. Like this last year, first they stop MacPro sale in Europe, by neglecting to adjust to new regulations. Then, months later, they announce a new model that requires big changes in the whole ecosystem surrounding MacPro workstations. I feel lucky that I am not responsible for shifting out 1/4 of the computers to new MacPros inside the present year budget.

Even as a home user (Mac) my old MacPro represents a minor part of my present IT-equipment (maybe 1/10). I certainly do not look forward to shell out half of that again just to go clean TB.

While we are at why don't we lobby Intel to stop releasing updated chips every year, oh wait that's just bonkers.

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Hyperbole doesn't really help settle down the rancor on these message boards. Dense packing powerful boxes has been done by folks in the past. Evlolutionary, but revolutionary not even in the slightest. Some minor specifics of the implementation (e.g., the specific proporitions and the tube shape. that differnent ) The components and packaging not so much.



There is little to nothing to indicate that at all. There will be options (build to order options). Extremely likely not just one pair of customer GPU daughtercards. However, no signs at all for an open market of options.


Male cow droppings. Slinging this kind of manure around forums does nothing to cut down on the rancor.

And the hyperbole that Apple commonly uses only also fuels the blowback when they are so obviously false (" the iPhone defies physics ..." LOL. )

Please provide a link of such a device if it has been done before? How is it that you come to this conclusion without any information being released and all the information so far has come from a sneak peek. Nvidia will want a buy in here. There will be other options.

 

[Tesselator]

We had those lying around in the CS labs. Neat little things.

The O2's? Yeah, I dug them! Very nice OpenGL platforms! We worked off of Intergraph boxes tho. - in that class. (The purple ones. )

Found a pic:

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[Simplybetter]

why not dual so we would get 24cores?

Because even if they did have 24 cores YOU would not have the money to buy or nor would you have anything to do with such large computing power.

 

[theSeb]

The O2's? Yeah, I dug them! Very nice OpenGL platforms! We worked off of Intergraph boxes tho. - in that class.

Yup, I was talking about the O2s.

 

[Simplybetter]

This, coming from someone who only registered YESTERDAY and has this as the very first post.

Are you trying to prove some point because I'm new? and that means I'm not allowed to post? Its people like you who have kept me away and kept me lurking for so long.

 

[golf1410]

I still think we should wait for 2nd gen. Never buy first gen of any product from Apple. There're still some unseen problems in design or something. I think Apple has never get things done perfect at the first time. They get them done perfect over time. That is my opinion.

 

[Tesselator]

Please provide a link of such a device if it has been done before? How is it that you come to this conclusion without any information being released and all the information so far has come from a sneak peek. Nvidia will want a buy in here.

I think deconstruct60 has it right.

There will be other options.

Well, to quote yourself:

How is it that you come to this conclusion without any information being released and all the information so far has come from a sneak peek.​

 

[Simplybetter]

What? "Intense conservatism" often relates to those who want a computer that handles certain tasks as opposed to having some new Apple Art to sit on the table and amaze friends. "Wow, you paid the Apple tax for that?"

There is a reason that pros and power users like great big boxes full of replaceable CPUs, GPUs, HDD, SSDs, and RAM. They work. That is not old school or new school or middle school. It just relates to a machine format that works.

Most Mac Pros sit or hang under a desk. Size is mostly meaningless. Being able to connect to lots of USB, FireWire and eSATA devices is meaningful.

After reading the numerous posts regarding the new Mac Pro I'm of the opinion that those who like it the most are the Mac mini / iMac crowd with aspirations. Those who like it the least appear to be the content creation / pro folks, the real pros.

As with many products from both Apple and other companies slapping "Pro" on something really appeals to those who would like to be a pro or who think they are pro-like. Note that the 13 inch MacBook Pro and Canon Digital Photo Professional are good at what they do but are rather lacking on pro features. There are a zillion other products out there whose more expensive version often has "pro" somewhere in the name.

You are quite confused. A Pro user is not someone who want to modify there computer. A Pro user wants to be as productive as possible on a powerful machine. Type of person you are referring to is a computer enthusiast. An enthusiast cares more about how they can change their computer, no how well they can work on their computer.

 

[Tesselator]

Because even if they did have 24 cores YOU would not have the money to buy or nor would you have anything to do with such large computing power.

Wow, you must know Freida really well! Engaged maybe?

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You are quite confused. A Pro user is not someone who want to modify there computer. A Pro user wants to be as productive as possible on a powerful machine.

Which has always in the past REQUIRED modifying the machine - if not initially then eventually.

 

[Wild-Bill]

Are you trying to prove some point because I'm new? and that means I'm not allowed to post? Its people like you who have kept me away and kept me lurking for so long.

I'm sure it just a coincidence that you and at least ten other people here joined just yesterday to defend the iGarbageCan.

Just a coincidence I'm sure...

 

[MacVidCards]

You are quite confused. A Pro user is not someone who want to modify there computer. A Pro user wants to be as productive as possible on a powerful machine. Type of person you are referring to is a computer enthusiast. An enthusiast cares more about how they can change their computer, no how well they can work on their computer.

I beg to differ.

Perhaps the "pros" you are more familiar with run "Bill's Wedding Videos and Catering Supply"

I run a business in Hollywood.

A large percentage of the content you watch on iToys comes from within 15 miles of me.

The various post houses here run a variety of Mac Pros, mostly with GTX580 3GB or a RedRocket or both. (Neither of which fits in new Pro) They use Cubix expanders and FILL them with 580 cards. They toss as much money as possible into making their rigs the fastest because TIME = MONEY in film biz.

Anyone running a stock 5870 or Q4000 would be considered a joke and out of touch.

Not sure what Pros you are talking about.

 

[Simplybetter]

Yeah, some of the criticism is as you say; uninformed, untrue, and even stupid.

But that doesn't mean all of it is. Also you are making some mistakes as well. It is not "open" as you say. And unless several WinTel makers change over to a unified heat-sink there will not be 3rd party GPU options available for it. We will be stuck with ONLY Apple offerings which is one of the very intended purposes of this design.

I do agree that the idiots posting trashcans and stuff should have their posts deleted (or moved to some other sub-forum [do we have one for Jokes?]) and they are probably nothing more than trolls. Trolling is against the rules here. But in the same breath you're going too far in the other direction. Just look at the responses you're getting if you don't think you're going too far.

The new MP6,1 has not by any means "revolutionized the entire personal and professional computer market" as you said. Not even kinda close. The new MP6,1 is a current spec workstation that's been stripped to the point of no longer being a workstation, and sports a highly engineered new form factor. So what's new here? The form factor - that's it! Nothing more.

Now Apple deserves a lot of respect IMO for this form factor! It's literally thinking outside the box! Awesome stuff! Especially if they pass along some of the cost cuts in the form of lower sticker prices!!! And it that becomes true I'm buying one! But I'm not even a Professional any longer - I'm retired. If I were still working doing what I used to do I wouldn't touch this new design to use as a workstation unless it was incredibly inexpensive ($1k or so). Here's just one example of why not:

I became active on this site once again about 4 months ago or so - looking to upgrade my system and hunting for new hacks and techniques. On the issue of GPU one of the issues anyone considering a MP6,1 should be paying attention to, I found everyone recommending the GTX 570. A few days later a new ATI card was released. A month or so later the GTX 670 and 680 started to see many recommendations and proof-of-function installations. Just a few months after that we are now already talking about the GTX 7xx cards. That's just in the past half year or less and the GTX 770 is a dramatic improvement over the GTX 570. What would anyone interested in any of the 4 card options I just mentioned, do if they had a MacPro6,1?

Now, I think that TB2 is in most cases fast enough to handle something like a 670 or probably any of the single chip cards without typical users noticing any difference. So Games, 3D modeling and animation, web browsing, and even matte compositing probably won't take a hit. But how about for the other people, cards with dual chips and two VRAM banks, and when the GTX 990 is released? What then how about them? With the new MP6,1 if Apple keeps to similar policies as in the past, they will have to suffer waiting on Apple to release a card upgrade indeed IF Apple even does at all.

And this is the trouble with closed proprietary systems. Even just the little bit of propriety that Apple imbued into the MP1,1 ~ 5,1 has caused us all endless headaches and forced us to turn to very unprofessional solutions such as hacks boot-screen forfeiture, and so on. Now we're looking at a system with buttloads of propriety in the new MP6,1 and some of us know very well what that will incur as we attempt to maintain our system(s) over the next 3 to 5 years.

Its not closed? it has an unlock tab on the case? It can be opened? There will be other options, it would be silly to think that there will only ever be one card available ever for the Mac Pro. Nvidia will want to get their cards in that box. No other company so far has manufactures such a bold form factor, the form factor is innovative and it is revolutionary as no one else has done it before. You look at the Mac Pro and think why has this not been done before now? It is not appropriate to immediately rule that it is a totally closed proprietary before its release. Yes there will be closed element, that's just Apple. That has always been Apple's view. The criticism that totally writes it off is whats wrong.

 

[malana]

Because even if they did have 24 cores YOU would not have the money to buy or nor would you have anything to do with such large computing power.

lolol, such large computing power 3d and compositing programs can be a real b*tch sometimes, especially with particle systems. every core is bitterly needed, and adding 2 grand for another 12core is not really a problem (we switch every 3 years) - not being able to make a deadline is.

i really hope that there will be a dual cpu model, lenovo and dell will have them for sure (besides more slots for ram and a bigger range of video cards). the moment they release a hackintoshable out of the box machine, the landslide to windows will continue.

 

[wallysb01]

Because even if they did have 24 cores YOU would not have the money to buy or nor would you have anything to do with such large computing power.

Troll much?

 

[JesterJJZ]

I hope they add a 2nd CPU option down the road. Sure it can have 12 cores, but it it were larger it could have 24...

 

[td2243]

Today with the unveiling of the new 2013 Mac Pro, a whole wave of criticism has come from this site which to say the least is detestable.

Even without any details people jumped to the conclusion that it can not be opened, can't be upgraded and that it is made of plastic. All of which is not true

Such criticism should only be coming from a cheesy Windows 8 supporter who is pissed off about no longer having a start button, not from the MacRumors community. It has become increasingly hard to see who supports the Mac Pro anymore on this once great community.

What has been revealed from Apple with the new Mac Pro has revolutionized the entire personal and professional computer market. It's design is unlike any other computer on the market. The new Mac Pro has changed how we view computer form factors and computer power vs. size.

It is quite obvious that the new Mac Pro will have a new Intel Ivy Bridge E5 2600 v2 12 core processor as shown in leaked roadmaps. At a minimum for people who hate the look of the Mac Pro this will provide Hackintosh users with power management for the newest generation Intel chips.

For those who want expandability with graphics cards, just like with the Saphire HD 7950, there will be alternative options for the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is not closed.

Apple has equipped the Mac Pro with 6 of the fastest memory I/O's in the world and still complaints about hard drive expandability are excessive. Every major manufacture of external hard drives manufactures Thunderbolt devices. The reason for this is because the future is on the cloud, not on your hard drive.

This computer is called a "Pro" for a reason, and it's not because it's built for every poor cretin on this site who owns an iPhone. In fact most of the people on here who say they wouldn't buy it now wouldn't buy a new mac pro in the old form factor simply because it costs too much.

Are you scared of change? Scared of innovation? Scared of computers that are not box shaped? Or are you just so caught up in your own view of the world that you fail to see what is truly in front of you? Apple is showing you what you want, that's their job, you just don't know it yet.

You go girl!


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[scottsjack]

I do agree that the idiots posting trashcans and stuff should have their posts deleted (or moved to some other sub-forum [do we have one for Jokes?]) and they are probably nothing more than trolls. Trolling is against the rules here. But in the same breath you're going too far in the other direction. Just look at the responses you're getting if you don't think you're going too far.

Are you for real? This is the Mac Rumors forum for god's sake, not some esteemed scientific or engineering body! Mac Pro users have been whining like two-year-olds here for years because their Mac Pros cannot use the same high-end GPUs that you can slap into an $800 Dell.

Some people are going to think the new Mac Pro really sucks and are going to express it in words or art. Sure, that makes the "accept every amazing thing that Apple puts forth" folks upset. They would rather be goose-stepping inline behind Jony Ive's latest minimalist lump.

Get real!

 

[Simplybetter]

Not liking the design and criticizing it for what it obviously lacks is not detestable. Just because apple is the only company in the world that has feelings, doesn't mean that this new macpro design has feelings.



The majority of complaints are about the design, expandability and upgradablity, and there is clearly enough information to start making criticisms. Where are you going two gpus in this thing for example... anyway this gets revisted later in your post.



wut? Ya cause windows 8 supporters spend so much time on Macrumors site? And as if they wouldn't still be using win 7 anyway. We end up with bad designs because of this white knight fanboi mentality. Loyalty to a company is ridiculous.
Smart consumers support quality products that serve their purposes, fools support companies.



It hasn't "revolutionized" anything. it would have to be adopted as a mainstream design principle to revolutionize the industry. if anything is premature and lacking merit, its this statement.

Not to mention that almost no professional company cares about the ascetic design of a workstation.



ok...? Not like apple will ever support the hackintosh community



And this is where you start to make some valid points. The fact of the matter however, is that macs "alternative options" will never match or keep up with the top Nvidea and ATI cards.



Its called "Pro" because its suppose to be a professional system that servers the needs of professionals. How is an overpriced hardware system that requires even more unnecessary purchases of external enclosures, external drives, and limits on upgradablity fit the needs of a professional?



And here is where you go overboard. "scared of changes.... view of the world"?

No. We aren't scared. Some of us like functionality, practicality and performance rather than wasting money. As far as i'm concerned, all this new design has done is revolutionize the way apple tries to take money from its customers. Why you think this design does anything to serve the professional market is beyond me.

You write off the Mac Pro and jump to your own conclusions. It is functional, practical and it has 7 teraflops of power, that is performance. Not liking it is fine, don't buy it if you don't like it. What is detestable is writing it off without any details. There really is not enough information at all. There has only been a sneak preview. That is no where near enough to write it off. The rest of you paragraph makes absolutely no sense at all. That is true about not caring about the design but that's the Apple way. If you don't like it don't buy it. Are you calling me a fool for supporting a product? I don't support Apple as a company? I simply like product design and good I.T. Hahaha if an individual does not try to releases something different in the first place than how would there ever be anything revolutionary. A revolution always starts with something new and different. That is what has happened. You obviously do not understand basic Hackintosh problems. There is no power management in socket 2011 Intel chips because Apple did not update last years mac pro to the latest Intel chips. This means that Socket 2011 chips can not hibernate. With the new Mac Pro, this concern will be addressed whether apple want to address it or not. You could not be more wrong. Nvidia I bet will release a Mac Titan card for the Mac Pro. Professionals want to work efficiently with lots of computing power which is exactly what the Mac Pro does. Why are you on this community if you believe the Company that this community is based off has the single priority of taking as much money as possible off you.

 

[macuser453787]

I think maybe pro users were expecting new technology but a design not too radical.

Dig it. That's definitely where I was with it, and I'd add to that observation that maybe a bigger box to allow for more PCIe expansion etc. could have been a way to go. I'm not technically a MP user yet, but I have been following the MP developments since last year (in the interest of becoming a MP user after it was completely refreshed).

Just not sure about this new design at the moment. I don't exactly dislike it, but I don't necessarily have excited warm and fuzzies about it either.

I for one enjoy the tinkering/upgrading process (that is, by being able to actually put my hands inside of the machine and removing parts and putting other parts in). I think it's probably fair to say that a good number of us on this forum are used to being able to do that with their Mac towers and even enjoy it to one degree or another, yes? Taking that into account, this new design seems to be somewhat of a letdown IMO. They could have left the more manual aspect of upgrading intact while finding other ways to innovate (that is, aside from the expected and much needed I/O updates).

On the other hand, it does seem to fit right in line with Apple's way of innovating things...

 

[Tesselator]

Its not closed? it has an unlock tab on the case? It can be opened?

That's not what closed means... Silly you. A closed design as opposed to an open design is one which can not be added to. In the context of case design of course this infers internal additions.

The design they showed has user accessible SSD and RAM. That's it. That's a pretty closed system IMO. There's a few hundred possible options missing - internally.

It's rather closed indeed.

There will be other options, it would be silly to think that there will only ever be one card available ever for the Mac Pro. Nvidia will want to get their cards in that box.

No one said it wouldn't eventually be available in different flavors. We said that you will be stuck with whatever you select. And if it's upgradable (big if) and if there are Apple options (small if) then you will absolutely be limited to those option alone. No hope for going to the store one day and finding a sale on GTX 980 cards for your mac. Or deciding to use the system as a file server sometime in the future and placing a GT120 or something in there to save on the power bill.

No other company so far has manufactures such a bold form factor, the form factor is innovative and it is revolutionary as no one else has done it before. You look at the Mac Pro and think why has this not been done before now?

Ummm, the only part that hasn't been done before is the heat-sink and the tube-shaped body. You really want to use the word "revolutionary" about a case and a heat-sink? Seriously?

It is not appropriate to immediately rule that it is a totally closed proprietary before its release. Yes there will be closed element, that's just Apple. That has always been Apple's view. The criticism that totally writes it off is whats wrong.

So you did know what I meant by closed. Heh.

But you may be right, they may change it to be less closed prior to release. Especially if they see everyone voicing their disapproval. Thus the very thing you're banging your head against is likely the only thing that will save us from such a closed system. Isn't that known as shooting one's self in the foot?

 

[Simplybetter]

lolol, such large computing power 3d and compositing programs can be a real b*tch sometimes, especially with particle systems. every core is bitterly needed, and adding 2 grand for another 12core is not really a problem (we switch every 3 years) - not being able to make a deadline is.

i really hope that there will be a dual cpu model, lenovo and dell will have them for sure (besides more slots for ram and a bigger range of video cards). the moment they release a hackintoshable out of the box machine, the landslide to windows will continue.

I don't deny that it would be fantastic if in the future was there was a 24 core version. However coming and saying that its a piece of crap for only having 12 is laughable.