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All of the "If I was Steve/CEO " or "If I was Tim/CEO " stuff isn't likely going to give insight into what Steve or Tim is going to do.

I not one to second guess what Steve or Tim would do but the trend has been to strengthen the walled garden.

ARM design has been moved inside Apples secure walls and has drawn closer to x86 power by the year.

OS X apps have been integrated slowly into IOS along with M$ apps.

IOS is the honey pot along with Apples mobile devices. Macs are stagnate as far as the profits they produce compared to mobile devices and IOS.

It's not a far reach to see that IOS, OS X and Macs converge.

Of coarse pro machines will require power eating CPUs and GPUs and thus x86 chips but consumer machines will no longer need them.

The IoT will all be ARM based and controlled with low power ARM base machines.

I understand your passion for x86 because I feel the same but Apples money making machine is IOS and the mobiles that support it.
 
All of this discussion of will they or won't they go to ARM is conflating very different things.

ARM isn't comparable to Intel. ARM is comparable to x86. Companies like Samsung, Qualcomm, Broadcomm, MediaTek, STM, etc. are licensees of ARM, and make ARM-based SoCs. In the x86 world, due to a number of reasons one of which is simply the era it came about, the relationships are different; but in general Intel and AMD are x86 manufacturers. Apple is also an ARM licensee, though they do not manufacture their own chips (yet).

Thus, statements that say ARM is faster than Intel are wrong and nonsense. It's like saying a V8 is faster than a Ford. What Ford? What V8? How can you compare the speeds of a single type of engine to an entire brand of cars? Both come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and speeds.

Second, when it comes to graphics, it's an entirely different category again. Intel has recently started making their own GPUs, and incorporating them in the same chip as the CPU. Prior to this, the GPU was either integrated in the motherboard or a discrete separate card, made by a variety of manufacturers such as nVidia, AMD, etc. Similar to Intel, ARM also designs their own GPU, the Mali, which is sometimes integrated with the CPU in an SoC made by one of the above ARM licensees. However, those licensees often have their own GPUs as well that they would rather use. Broadcomm has the Adreno, Imagination licenses the PowerVR to whoever wants to use it, and NVidia has the Geforce ULP in its Tegra chips. None of these have anything to do with ARM but for the compatibility.

Again, to say that ARM has better graphics than Intel is comparing two incomparable things. An Intel Core i7 CPU paired with an nVidia Titan GPU will be much faster than any tablet. An AMD FX CPU paired with a FirePro GPU will also beat any tablet today. An SoC comprised of an ARM Coretex A57 CPU and an Imagination PowerVR 7XT will be pretty fast, possibly faster than an Intel Core i3 with it's integrated Intel GPU.

So yes, in theory, the fastest ARM design paired with the fasted GPU design, manufactured on a single SoC by the most skilled licensee, would be as fast as an Intel Core i3 or Intel Core i5 in some benchmarks - but the price difference wouldn't be as drastic as many here are suggesting.

To prove my point, look no further than the CES that just happened. Intel chips are in approximately 3/4 of the newly announced tablets (actual tablets, not reference designs that will never be sold). I saw less ARM influence than ever before this year. Remember how much of a flop the Windows Surface RT was? Because nobody wanted to rewrite their apps for Windows on ARM? For the same reason, nobody will want to rewrite their apps for OS X on ARM. Because of sandboxing and APIs, most iOS and Android apps aren't even written specifically for ARM, but rather for their respective OS which can run those apps on any chip the OS is compiled for.

I think we'd sooner see an Apple tablet running x86 than we will see an Apple desktop running ARM.
 
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All of this discussion of will they or won't they go to ARM is conflating very different things.

I think we'd sooner see a Apple tablet running x86 than we will see an Apple desktop running ARM.

That's an excellent explanation and I like the discussion on this subject and base my thoughts only on the trends that Apple seems to follow and where this whole thing may go.

I look more at the profit center of IOS as compared to OS X and see a trend away from power Macs of the past.

I hope for future x86 Macs and see Apple ARM in the next 2 years at least on the low end Macs.

........................

Interesting article on Apples ARM history.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...cessors?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
 
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Broadcomm has the Adreno,

Qualcomm has Adreno. (Readon anagram since this is mobile graphics spun out of ATI back before they were acquired by AMD ).


Imagination licenses the PowerVR to whoever wants to use it,

Including Intel.

"... While Intel uses its Gen graphics in Bay Trail, the GPU in both SoCs is still from IMG. Merrifield features the PowerVR Series 6 G6400, while Moorefield uses the G6430. Both are four cluster designs, the latter is just optimized for higher performance. This is roughly the same GPU configuration Apple uses in the iPhone 5s/iPad Air, but at somewhat higher frequencies from what I can tell (and of course, built on Intel's 22nm process and not Samsung's 28nm). .."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7789/intel-talks-merrifield-moorefield-and-lte-at-mwc-2014

To prove my point, look no further than the CES that just happened. Intel chips are in approximately 3/4 of the newly announced tablets (actual tablets, not reference designs that will never be sold). I saw less ARM influence than ever before this year.

Intel paid about $1B to make that happen. They are putting extremely high incentives for the established PC system designers to use Intel parts instead of any of the ARM derivatives. That is in part a stop-gap measure. But is it also a bit necessary for folks targeting Android since it has historically had ARM designs , tools , and native code applied to Android systems. There is "extra" work if doing Android on Intel. Intel is buying into market share at this point.

When Android starts making major transition to 64-bit is going to be in much better position for the "buy in" that they are doing now. In short term though it also has side effect of killing off the Windows ARM systems.


Remember how much of a flop the Windows Surface RT was? Because nobody wanted to rewrite their apps for Windows on ARM?

It is not so much rewrite for Windows on ARM but to write to a brand new (non backwards compatible) Windows API. The new apps would largely run on either Windows 8 on x86 or ARM. The new API was a failure in part also because Windows Phone went no where fast. Much of the upshot was suppose to be could move apps across windows. The major downside was that only Windows OS with high moment/inertia was Windows on x86 and even that was heavily weighted to legacy x86 code inertia.

This new Windows API is in the slow adoption rate for the same reason it took MS until Windows 3.0 to get going full steam. Back in that transition DOS was the boat anchor inertia.

Rule of thumb is that it takes MS about 3 stabs at something to get it right.
If compare an original Surface Pro to the new Surface Pro 3 .... I doubt few would choose the former over the latter.

For the same reason, nobody will want to rewrite their apps for OS X on ARM.

OS X on ARM would not mean a new API. It does mean that legacy (currently owned software) isn't going to run without some solution to help. For PPC -> Intel Apple used a 3rd party company's solution. Transitive doesn't exist anymore and it has been almost two decades since Apple has done an architecture emulator..... I doubt those folks are still around at Apple since the talent wasn't around 10 years ago either.

The other huge problem is that Apple already has an OS running on ARM. If Windows Phone was huge and growing we may not have seen Windows RT tablets that tried to more closely mimic Windows. MS was trying to use the leverage of Windows ( 90+% of classic PC market) to jumpstart an OS on ARM. [ one reason why Windows CE and others have had limited success in the past. ] Windows 10 is suppose to be a better context sensitive (which kind of device am I on) approach to convergence but that too is probably going to take a couple iterations to iron out. Remains to be seen if Windows 10 doesn't also mean that Windows ARM tablets mean the "phone" skew to Windows 10 and not the Surface (and similar x86 ones) variant.


Apple needs another OS on ARM like a another hole in the head. The OS with the bigger percentage of the "personal computer" market is iOS.
That is already on ARM. Apple sells about as many iPads in year as the whole Mac line up. The incremental addition of Minis would make no difference in the volume. It would only serve to shrink the discounts they do get from Intel on the CPUs that Apple's ARM implementation can not replace for the next couple of years. [ if ever, if Intel and AMD continues to make progress . ]


I think we'd sooner see an Apple tablet running x86 than we will see an Apple desktop running ARM.

General desktop or any desktop? ARM AppleTV was already done years ago. A small box AppleTV along same lines as Amazon FireTV and Google Nexus player has decent chance. Apple's Home Network API leverages AppleTV. A time capsule (back up the iOs devices at home) device that serves as a media server would not be surprising at all.

A keyboard less OS X laptop? I wouldn't hold my breath. A 360 hinge (fold keyboard away mode) with touchscreen would not be too surprising if sales of the Mac laptops go flat. Flat sales doesn't look like it going to happen any time soon. If the iPad Pro comes out and is successful even less likely.

A keyboard less iOS tablet on x86? Exceedingly doubtful. Apple does have enough resources already allocated to do a custom ARM chip specifically for higher end iOS. The volume is high enough ( several 10's of millions per year) that it is easy to keep that up for a long time.

Intel may start getting some radio orders again from Apple ( now that they are getting competitive in LTE solutions with world converage). But iOS application processors.... not really.
 
Apple needs another OS on ARM like a another hole in the head.

General desktop or any desktop?

I agree with everything you said, and thanks for the corrections.

By desktop, I meant something akin to a Mac mini, the topic of this thead. In my view, it's very doubtful Apple would make such a computer running an ARM SoC.
 
hate to play devil advocate, and would never even fathom the idea of ARMs in my imac or MBP. but ARMs in a basic mac-mini may be very well feasible, although i fear that ios will come with this :(

Of course, iOS will be the only option. OS X is for intel, and no software company would follow Apple and port their apps for an ARM OS X platform (and, tbh, why should they ?).

On the other hand, iOS would be ready out of the box, with all its apps ready to work, based on an already well-established development platform.
 
Of course, iOS will be the only option. OS X is for intel, and no software company would follow Apple and port their apps for an ARM OS X platform (and, tbh, why should they ?).

On the other hand, iOS would be ready out of the box, with all its apps ready to work, based on an already well-established development platform.

OS X was ported to the first iPhone in 2007 just to prove the power of the ARM chip and the phone.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...cessors?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
 
OS X was ported to the first iPhone in 2007 just to prove the power of the ARM chip and the phone.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...cessors?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

iOS is a lightweight flavor of OS X anyway. But this is irrelevant. Applications coming from the OS X would still need porting in order to run on a different processor. And I'd bet any day, that no software house would follow Apple on this. In other words, if Apple decides to go with ARM, iOS will be their only option.
 
iOS is a lightweight flavor of OS X anyway. But this is irrelevant. Applications coming from the OS X would still need porting in order to run on a different processor. And I'd bet any day, that no software house would follow Apple on this. In other words, if Apple decides to go with ARM, iOS will be their only option.

I just making the point that OS X does not require Intel.

Apple always does what is best for us.;)
 
The convergence takes pace. This is basically next generation "Macbook Air".
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/apple-stylus-launching-alongside-ipad-pro-2015-1484042
"....Apple's rumoured iPad Pro is set to be launched in the second quarter of 2015, though there are very few details available on what features it will have. Reports of its screen size vary between 12.2in and 12.9in while it is also rumoured to support stereo sound thanks to redesigned speakers. There is also a suggestion that Apple will run an adapted version of iOS to make use of the larger screen size and facilitate better multi-tasking...."

MacBook Air is also basically the undercarriage for Mac Mini....

We should start another thread by now titled "The new ARM Mac Mini late 2015 is almost certainly coming".
 
OS X was ported to the first iPhone in 2007 just to prove the power of the ARM chip and the phone.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...cessors?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

No it wasn't. Appleinsider stuff is typically more fanboy analysis than objective. The article only makes allusions to OS X but it really isn't:

"... However, back in 2007 no ARM chip was anywhere near as powerful as Intel's Core processors used in Macs. That made it an astounding feat that Apple was able to effectively port the entire essential OS X Mac environment to run on such an ARM chip in the original iPhone, along with an entirely new multitouch-based user interface. ..."

What got ported to the iPhone was iPhone OS ( now labeled iOS), not OS X. It is not really all that astounding when note that iOS could only run one application at a time. Initially it couldn't even run 3rd party applications. If you suppress tons of functionality of the underlying kernel and strip out huge swaths of functionality from the application library then it isn't all that astounding. Multitouch is extremely far more just different than some new (had been in several labs years previously and in products before the iPhones release ) revolutionary difficult change in software.

The core issue is that OS X without all the libraries/APIs , hardware support , open extensible functionality ( SATA, Thunderbolt , PCI-e , etc. ) isn't really OS X. iOS is a 'fork' of OS X. There is overlap but they are different.

Stripped down versions of Linux were already on ARM in the same timeframe. That's why there was a bake-off between Linux and OS X as being the foundation for iPhone/iOS. Reusing chunks of the OS X code base tipped the scales, but claims of miraculous feats of Mac OS X is over the top.

This article is whacked when with the Intel doom and gloom on losses. Microsoft and Intel have been in a battle over the future of Windows. Each side tossing Billion $ bombs at the other. Microsoft's 100's of millions write down of their ARM tablets and moves into the phone business pretty much match up with Intel's counter strikes to get all other system vendors to abandon ARM tablets and grow the size of deployed Android on Intel deployments. Neither side can continue to do this forever, but it isn't particularly surprising. This sumo wrestling match breaks out roughly every decade or so ( Windows NT introduction .... tablet incursion on ARM ).

Intel spent $3-4B and still has $15B in profit. Boo hoo they are in dire straits; not.

The wimpy Android that couldn't compete with iOS on 2007 on phones ... blew right past Apple now. Tablets? basically in progress if not already done.
Intel's mobile is in quite similar transitionary point. Intel has talent is spending several multiples of what Apple is spending. Apple has chance to stay ahead long term in a world collapsed solely around iOS. In mulitiple OS , more general purpose application processor market? Way too many competitors with far bigger collective budgets will likely win.
 
... And I'd bet any day, that no software house would follow Apple on this.

The houses that are 100% committed to Apple App Store only distribution, restrictions, and revenues would likely go. Not sure really want to call it OS X on ARM at that point though.

In other words, if Apple decides to go with ARM, iOS will be their only option.

iOS on ARM is the better, more cost effective , more profitable option. It is isn't the only one. It isn't impossible. Two operating systems on one arch just doesn't necessarily make Apple more money. If Intel and AMD completely screw up the x86 platform over time it may be a necessary move as the cost of the additional complexity are unavoidable.
 
No it wasn't. Appleinsider stuff is typically more fanboy analysis than objective. The article only makes allusions to OS X but it really isn't:

Just about all the publication and blogs covering Apple are typically fanboys and afraid to offend them in anyway so as not to get invites and review units from them.
 
No it wasn't. Appleinsider stuff is typically more fanboy analysis than objective. The article only makes allusions to OS X but it really isn't: (...)

Just about all the publication and blogs covering Apple are typically fanboys and afraid to offend them in anyway so as not to get invites and review units from them.

You are both actually saying the same thing, in different words. Steve Jobs when presented the first iPhone actually said that this is a device running OS X (presentation is available on youtube). But stating such thing in that way, is definitely a bit far from truth. It is the same core OS, but iOS is heavily slim-down version, in order to be able to run on a mobile device. There are differences beyond UI. That's what Canonical also struggles to do now with Ubuntu.

Actually, the word "fork" used above is the most precise. Forking allows both operating systems to exchange core features between them, while maintaining different development cycles and keep being separated with each other, each one serving its purpose.

That's why it is very obvious that if Mac Mini's role changes (e.g. going towards appliance device) the respective OS for such role will be used as well.
 
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Of course, iOS will be the only option. OS X is for intel, and no software company would follow Apple and port their apps for an ARM OS X platform (and, tbh, why should they ?).

On the other hand, iOS would be ready out of the box, with all its apps ready to work, based on an already well-established development platform.

Slights off the beaten track, i wonder if the Ipad-pro will have a beefed up vsn of iosx, if this is true, maybe they could carry this over to lower-end ARM macs

Essentially, apps like: finder, would be most useful.
 
Slights off the beaten track, i wonder if the Ipad-pro will have a beefed up vsn of iosx, if this is true, maybe they could carry this over to lower-end ARM macs

Essentially, apps like: finder, would be most useful.

It's anybody's guess of course, but I'd dare to bet that we'll not see such things like finder in iOS, anytime soon. Apple has shown under various circumstances that they want to keep iOS really closed. Maybe a finder in its own sandboxed space, but still unlikely.
 
It's anybody's guess of course, but I'd dare to bet that we'll not see such things like finder in iOS, anytime soon. Apple has shown under various circumstances that they want to keep iOS really closed. Maybe a finder in its own sandboxed space, but still unlikely.

I fear you right. How awesome would finder be in ios, even if it is limited to stored documents.

However, outside apple utopian world in Cupertino, data storage and access on a ipad is serious hard work. Dropbox and google drive provide some versatility, while Icloud, seems eons far behind. I would delete google drive, drop-box in a heart beat if icloud offered something similar. As it currently stands, the current implementation in icloud file storage is awful.
 
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I fear you right. How awesome would finder be in ios, even if it is limited to stored documents.

However, outside apple utopian world in Cupertino, data storage and access on a ipad is serious hard work. Dropbox and google drive provide some versatility, while Icloud, seems eons far behind. I would delete google drive, drop-box in a heart beat if icloud offered something similar. As it currently stands, the current implementation if icloud file storage is awful.

Lots and lots of users asking for such thing from day #1. I've also heard lots of friends and colleagues asking why on earth they cannot transfer something in their iDevice directly, like an exposed file system. Oh well, what can you do.
 
Lots and lots of users asking for such thing from day #1. I've also heard lots of friends and colleagues asking why on earth they cannot transfer something in their iDevice directly, like an exposed file system. Oh well, what can you do.

Just makes no sense why apple will not implement this! I mean maybe re-assign one of the 20,000 people they have working incessantly on making idevices thinner, onto ios functionality.

Maybe it is a story i can tell my grand children one day, about how hard life was in 2015, where apple lacked a sound, cross platform exposed file system, with seamless integration.
 
Just makes no sense why apple will not implement this! I mean maybe re-assign one of the 20,000 people they have working incessantly on making idevices thinner, onto ios functionality.

Maybe it is a story i can tell my grand children one day, about how hard life was in 2015, where apple lacked a sound, cross platform exposed file system, with seamless integration.

My guess is they just don't want to do it. They love to make closed, small, thin-like-there's-no-tomorrow systems.

/relatively off-topic:
I've read here that the new Macbook Air is rumored to be even thinner, but without ports. How great is that... :rolleyes:

Sorry, I'll get back to topic now :)
 
lol tbh, they do offer a measly single mini usb-c port (forgive me i can't remember it's proper name) for charging, displayport, connectivity, and everything else. Sounds very innovative.

No, what is innovative (and useful) is my 2012 MBP. It has a port for the charger, a TB port I use for the monitor, an Ethernet port for faster Internet when it's on my desk, a USB3 port for the second Time Machine backup, another available USB3 port and even a large slot on the other side for making Apple lossless copies of CDs.

Now, that's innovation.
 
No, what is innovative (and useful) is my 2012 MBP. It has a port for the charger, a TB port I use for the monitor, an Ethernet port for faster Internet when it's on my desk, a USB3 port for the second Time Machine backup, another available USB3 port and even a large slot on the other side for making Apple lossless copies of CDs.

Now, that's innovation.

The only thing I can think is Apple developed a God port that encompasses all things. :)
 
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