The next MacBook Pro redesign (merged)

[Tolien]

I already regret feeding the troll but here goes...

Who suggested USB-C for audio? That would be overkill.

Do keep up - the discussion was about using Lightning headphones, which would require either a Lightning port on the rMBP or a USB-Lightning adapter.

The bandwidth required for audio is in the kHz zone which fits comfortably on a Bluetooth low energy signal. Stupid is the word for someone who thinks the answer to the 3.5mm jack is USB-C. Bluetooth 4 has been around for years and is staring you in the face.

Good to see you can't make a point so revert to ad hominem.
It's definitely a stupid idea but it's the one that you and the others pushing to drop the 3.5mm jack are making in favour of a device that only has USB-C ports. We've already covered the issues with Bluetooth headphones:

• heavier
• battery life
• audio quality
• lag

Apple aren't going to give away Bluetooth earbuds (if they do, the board should fire Tim Cook on the spot for wasting shareholders' money) and they aren't going to sell you an iPhone with earbuds that don't work with a MBP.

The cost of a simple A/D or D/A converter chip is largely irrelevant when you consider the cost of getting a consumer product on the shelf.

Who said anything about cost? Your assertion is that getting rid of the 3.5mm jack would let Apple make the machine thinner and "cleaner", except you'd still need the hardware on the machine's logic board to drive the speakers. Way to miss the point.

Something Apple excel at.

Apple excel at software? You are joking, right?
This would be the Apple that's had to move developers between iOS and OSX teams to have a hope of making release goals, managed to break networking for a significant enough chunk of their userbase to have to revert functionality in a Mavericks point release, leaked a lot of personal data belonging to celebrities (see the whole idea of "key influencers") due to their failure to put basic security in place, given up on most of their Pro software etc. etc.

That means seamless wireless recharging

So not content with requiring bigger and heavier earphones to do Bluetooth, you want to make them bigger and heavier still to accommodate a wireless charging coil? Yeah, definitely wondering why this wasn't done 10 years ago...

 

[c0ppo]

No loss of function from its removal. Any apparent "latency" issues (if they exist at all) can be ironed out by Apple engineers.

The major motivation is form. Something you appear to not appreciate. Something that underpins Apple's success. A pure, clean MBP with only ultra-high-performance USB-C ports out into the real world.

If you want compatibility, off you go and buy a Dell and hope for the best. 20 years ago, you went and bought an IBM compatible PC.

No loss of function? Really?
Form? In what way such a tiny plug can contribute to a form of a pro machine?

Compatibility? No need to be compatible with everything. Just apple devices.

Latency can be ironed out? In no way can it be ironed out to match 3.5 jack. Not even in theory.

So once again. Lets just remove the 3.5 jack. Why? Coz rumours says that Apple will do it. Why didn't no one want this before these rumours started? No one even mentioned this. Just coz one rumour says apple will remove it from iPhone 7, now every one wants to remove it from macbook pro.

As I already stated: Apple Church is strong with you guys

 

[Oppenheim]

• heavier
• battery life
• audio quality
• lag

All four of your points are resolvable. Arguably, all four have already been resolved. The most challenging issue you raise is battery life. A glaring omission from your uncomprehensive list is cost.

Apple excel at software? You are joking, right?

Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear.

I suggest forums.dell.com for you.

No loss of function? Really?
Form? In what way such a tiny plug can contribute to a form of a pro machine?

Compatibility? No need to be compatible with everything. Just apple devices.

Latency can be ironed out? In no way can it be ironed out to match 3.5 jack. Not even in theory.

So once again. Lets just remove the 3.5 jack. Why? Coz rumours says that Apple will do it. Why didn't no one want this before these rumours started? No one even mentioned this. Just coz one rumour says apple will remove it from iPhone 7, now every one wants to remove it from macbook pro.

As I already stated: Apple Church is strong with you guys

And yes, a 3.5mm hole to accommodate a flimsy headphone jack "just because it's been around a long time" is a design crease that needs to be ironed out. Tradition is not a good enough reason to ruin the sleek lines. Tesla got rid of door handles. Apple should consign the 3.5mm jack to the museum.

Your "latency" assertions aren't backed up by any figures. My guess is that any Apple product with a half decent Bluetooth chip can be tuned for ultra low latency that is imperceptible. It's important to get it right as a lot of Apple users are audio/video experts. My guess that the time through a Bluetooth chip, over the air and through another Bluetooth receiver is comparable to the time through a GPU. Even then, any mis-matches can surely be sync'd up without too much difficulty. Apple engineers would know best.

If users like c0ppo want to cling on to the comfort blanket of wired headphones, a USB-C to 3.5mm dongle should be right up his street.

 

[cmChimera]

If users like c0ppo want to cling on to the comfort blanket of wired headphones, a USB-C to 3.5mm dongle should be right up his street.

Don't forget microphone set ups since the port also handles microphones.

 

[Tolien]

Apple Bluetooth Microphone, only $300 - if you can't afford that, why are you bothering with a Mac?

 

[metalisticpain]

I have never had bluetooth audio work well... I seem to try it every few years, and its always disappointing. Its passable in a pinch but I would go wired any day. I hope they keep the 3.5mm jack or if not that, then go usb-c.

 

[doitdada]

I can understand the crowd using iOS and portable devices need of convenience and less cables. I think bluetooth and no wire is great for voice, but not satisfying for media consumption. In a conversation I will never make a criticism of the quality as long as I get the message. When you watch movies you can't ask Brad Pitt to talk louder or turn down the soundtrack a little bit. In music I want every nuance to spring out of the speakers like live animals.

I sometimes use bluetooth for music, but only when the goal is to be convenient and cable free.

 

[nicovh]

I can understand the crowd using iOS and portable devices need of convenience and less cables. I think bluetooth and no wire is great for voice, but not satisfying for media consumption. In a conversation I will never make a criticism of the quality as long as I get the message. When you watch movies you can't ask Brad Pitt to talk louder or turn down the soundtrack a little bit. In music I want every nuance to spring out of the speakers like live animals.

I sometimes use bluetooth for music, but only when the goal is to be convenient and cable free.

True!

Removing the 3.5mm jack is just a huge 'F YOU' to the music industry and music enthusiasts. I have a very nice pair of open-back AKG headphones I produce on the go with (in trains, cars etc.). Removing a port that so many people already have amazing headphones for (and for some really expensive too) is just leaving a whole group of people behind in a ditch. I wouldn't want to buy another pair of $300+ headphones just because Apple decides that bluetooth/usb-c/lightning is 'superior'.

Connectivity in the studio would then become a pain in the ass.
But for that, we can buy everybody's favourite accesory: the adapter

/s

But in all seriousness if Apple removes the jack, it wouldn't be such a huge problem to me, but I can see that it would hinder a lot of people. I am all for moving towards the next advancements in technology but this is such a widespread standard, that doesn't actually need improvement.

 

[navaira]

I wouldn't want to buy another pair of $300+ headphones just because Apple decides that bluetooth/usb-c/lightning is 'superior'.

Cue in the regular "if you can't afford $300 headphones Apple is not for you" comment /s

As long as Sony don't drop the 3.5mm jack and Apple can't retrospectively remove it from my Air I'm good.

 

[Oppenheim]

No loss of function? Really?
Form? In what way such a tiny plug can contribute to a form of a pro machine?

Compatibility? No need to be compatible with everything. Just apple devices.

Latency can be ironed out? In no way can it be ironed out to match 3.5 jack. Not even in theory.

So once again. Lets just remove the 3.5 jack. Why? Coz rumours says that Apple will do it. Why didn't no one want this before these rumours started? No one even mentioned this. Just coz one rumour says apple will remove it from iPhone 7, now every one wants to remove it from macbook pro.

As I already stated: Apple Church is strong with you guys

I can understand the crowd using iOS and portable devices need of convenience and less cables. I think bluetooth and no wire is great for voice, but not satisfying for media consumption. In a conversation I will never make a criticism of the quality as long as I get the message. When you watch movies you can't ask Brad Pitt to talk louder or turn down the soundtrack a little bit. In music I want every nuance to spring out of the speakers like live animals.

I sometimes use bluetooth for music, but only when the goal is to be convenient and cable free.

Your ear is only capable of hearing up to 20kHz.

High quality speakers are those that go down as close to 0Hz as possible and have a nice linear response from 0Hz to 20kHz.

Bluetooth or wired is irrelevant to your "live animals" ideas. What really matters is how the analogue input is converted to real sound waves.

If anything, a 2ft/3ft wire from your iPhone to your ear is more susceptible to interference than a half inch wire from the Bluetooth receiver to your ear. Though I guess any such interference is imperceptible.

The 3.5mm jack is a lingering anomaly. Why drill a hole in a design to accommodate a tradition that has a bandwidth of 100kHz when Bluetooth can do the job much better? My guess is that Apple are afraid of upsetting all the iTunes experts who spend all their time and money consuming (i.e. not creating). I hope Apple does the right thing. Design and aesthetics should trump the needs of sensitive consumer types who want things to keep going as they always did.

 

[Oppenheim]

Apple Bluetooth Microphone, only $300 - if you can't afford that, why are you bothering with a Mac?

Who uses the microphone port? Fewer than 1% of users is my guess. And of those, they would use it occasionally. It seems very specific. Are Apple going to make a specific port for every specific type of user?

The whole point of USB-C is that it is universal: very high bandwidth, provides energy, easy-to-use, reliable, user-friendly, aesthetically pleasing, etc. The audio experts can go and buy a 16-port audio hub (don't they use 6.35mm phono plugs? Oh wait, it's "all digital" now isn't it?) or whatever they need. The MBP is a high performance portable machine for creators. It should not double up as an expander board when a huge amount of time, money and effort has gone in to herding corporations to agree on USB-C. A lot of this effort was led by Apple and initiated years ago by some very forward-thinking folks.

 

[Oppenheim]

True!

Removing the 3.5mm jack is just a huge 'F YOU' to the music industry and music enthusiasts.

It's not though. All the top studios are 100% digital. And have been for years. Wired headphones are a needless physical restriction and aesthetically unpleasing. Digital Bluetooth headphones come with a whole load of extra features.

 

[mayuka]

Who uses the microphone port? Fewer than 1% of users is my guess. And of those, they would use it occasionally. It seems very specific. Are Apple going to make a specific port for every specific type of user?

Dude, that's the wrong approach. Those microphone / headphone jacks are standard since ages. You just can not replace them without adding a ton of new problems. Digital does not necessarily mean better quality than analogue.

An example: Lets just say 1% of users can make use of a microphone port. That does not seem a lot. However, 90% of those 1% are musicians that use microphone ports and they rely on the robustness and reliability of that port. You probably have never played live music or supervised musicians with live music... Most of them have tuned all of their equipment around these ports. Trust me, they can not switch without replacing all of the other equipment, which needs to work together in the most reliable way. Sure, those microphone (and the analogue headphone) jacks come with a lot of obstacles and downsides (e.g. noise, wires, electronic blind resistor/capacitor issues, ground loops). Bluetooth and even USB-C to analogue jack converters have other important downsides and tricky obstacles such as latency, reception, DA-converter problems, ground loops, ... You have to work them out before replacing. And most importantly, Apple can not do it alone. They have to work with the other companies together. And there are absolutely no indications on that part.

 

[MDull]

All four of your points are resolvable. Arguably, all four have already been resolved. The most challenging issue you raise is battery life. A glaring omission from your uncomprehensive list is cost.



Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear.

I suggest forums.dell.com for you.



And yes, a 3.5mm hole to accommodate a flimsy headphone jack "just because it's been around a long time" is a design crease that needs to be ironed out. Tradition is not a good enough reason to ruin the sleek lines. Tesla got rid of door handles. Apple should consign the 3.5mm jack to the museum.

Your "latency" assertions aren't backed up by any figures. My guess is that any Apple product with a half decent Bluetooth chip can be tuned for ultra low latency that is imperceptible. It's important to get it right as a lot of Apple users are audio/video experts. My guess that the time through a Bluetooth chip, over the air and through another Bluetooth receiver is comparable to the time through a GPU. Even then, any mis-matches can surely be sync'd up without too much difficulty. Apple engineers would know best.

If users like c0ppo want to cling on to the comfort blanket of wired headphones, a USB-C to 3.5mm dongle should be right up his street.

Really if all you care about is form - you said it not me- why don't you and Tim Gunn just move on over to the Macbook Air group where you belong. Or just let me design one for you it'll be the thinest prettiest thing you ever saw- it won't do anything but it sure will be purty.

 

[doitdada]

Your ear is only capable of hearing up to 20kHz.

High quality speakers are those that go down as close to 0Hz as possible and have a nice linear response from 0Hz to 20kHz.

Bluetooth or wired is irrelevant to your "live animals" ideas. What really matters is how the analogue input is converted to real sound waves.

If anything, a 2ft/3ft wire from your iPhone to your ear is more susceptible to interference than a half inch wire from the Bluetooth receiver to your ear. Though I guess any such interference is imperceptible.

The 3.5mm jack is a lingering anomaly. Why drill a hole in a design to accommodate a tradition that has a bandwidth of 100kHz when Bluetooth can do the job much better? My guess is that Apple are afraid of upsetting all the iTunes experts who spend all their time and money consuming (i.e. not creating). I hope Apple does the right thing. Design and aesthetics should trump the needs of sensitive consumer types who want things to keep going as they always did.

I have just thrown in my subjective input here on bluetooth based on my actual experience and so have you. Would love to get real data on bluetooth lag, quality and ease of use.

Worked with sound people and heard all these arguments before, but how is the experience better than cable?

All wireless lags to some extent, still I am open for the idea of switching as long as it doesn't make me care about using bluetooth solutions. Every ear is different, even your left and your right. Narrowing it down to a certain frequency will only bring the followers and not the evangelists.

 

[terminator-jq]

You guys are cracking my up lol. The last couple pages here are hilarious. I'd be willing to bet that Apple will not remove the headphone jack from ANY new device in the near future (including the iPhone 7). If you don't like the headphone jack, don't use it. If you like your $300 bluetooth headphones, use them. The whole point of a laptop is portable computing. Key word there is portable. When you require people to have to use an adapter or hub to plug in something as simple and as widely used as wired headphones, you take away some of the portability and convenience of a laptop (or a smartphone, in the case of the iPhone 7).

I don't understand this recent obsession with getting rid of ports. People act like the Macbook Pro is super thick but its not! The current Macbook Pro still looks great and there are very few high end laptops that are this thin, this light, this powerful and still have good battery life. The Macbook Pro is not the Macbook or the Macbook Air. It doesn't have to be super thin, it just has to be powerful and portable. Removing all of the popular ports won't do anything but annoy the owners who will be forced to buy adapters just to regain the functionality they lost.

Some of the people on here seem to expect Apple to stuff Macbook Pro power into a Macbook Air case without giving up battery life or performance. Those people will be very disappointed in a few months.

 

[doitdada]

You guys are cracking my up lol. The last couple pages here are hilarious. I'd be willing to bet that Apple will not remove the headphone jack from ANY new device in the near future (including the iPhone 7). If you don't like the headphone jack, don't use it. If you like your $300 bluetooth headphones, use them. The whole point of a laptop is portable computing. Key word there is portable. When you require people to have to use an adapter or hub to plug in something as simple and as widely used as wired headphones, you take away some of the portability and convenience of a laptop (or a smartphone, in the case of the iPhone 7).

I don't understand this recent obsession with getting rid of ports. People act like the Macbook Pro is super thick but its not! The current Macbook Pro still looks great and there are very few high end laptops that are this thin, this light, this powerful and still have good battery life. The Macbook Pro is not the Macbook or the Macbook Air. It doesn't have to be super thin, it just has to be powerful and portable. Removing all of the popular ports won't do anything but annoy the owners who will be forced to buy adapters just to regain the functionality they lost.

Some of the people on here seem to expect Apple to stuff Macbook Pro power into a Macbook Air case without giving up battery life or performance. Those people will be very disappointed in a few months.

Old

 

[Oppenheim]

You guys are cracking my up lol. The last couple pages here are hilarious. I'd be willing to bet that Apple will not remove the headphone jack from ANY new device in the near future (including the iPhone 7). If you don't like the headphone jack, don't use it. If you like your $300 bluetooth headphones, use them. The whole point of a laptop is portable computing. Key word there is portable. When you require people to have to use an adapter or hub to plug in something as simple and as widely used as wired headphones, you take away some of the portability and convenience of a laptop (or a smartphone, in the case of the iPhone 7).

I don't understand this recent obsession with getting rid of ports. People act like the Macbook Pro is super thick but its not! The current Macbook Pro still looks great and there are very few high end laptops that are this thin, this light, this powerful and still have good battery life. The Macbook Pro is not the Macbook or the Macbook Air. It doesn't have to be super thin, it just has to be powerful and portable. Removing all of the popular ports won't do anything but annoy the owners who will be forced to buy adapters just to regain the functionality they lost.

Some of the people on here seem to expect Apple to stuff Macbook Pro power into a Macbook Air case without giving up battery life or performance. Those people will be very disappointed in a few months.

Eh, you do realise that wired headphones aren't nearly as portable, right?

 

[Oppenheim]

I have just thrown in my subjective input here on bluetooth based on my actual experience and so have you. Would love to get real data on bluetooth lag, quality and ease of use.

Worked with sound people and heard all these arguments before, but how is the experience better than cable?

All wireless lags to some extent, still I am open for the idea of switching as long as it doesn't make me care about using bluetooth solutions. Every ear is different, even your left and your right. Narrowing it down to a certain frequency will only bring the followers and not the evangelists.

There is a lag with Bluetooth. But i) there's a lag from when the data leaves the CPU registers and makes it off the DAC and onto the 3.5mm port and ii) any lag is imperceptible and can be easily compensated for by syncing up any discrepancies with the video.

 

[doitdada]

hmm

 

[MDull]

I can understand the crowd using iOS and portable devices need of convenience and less cables. I think bluetooth and no wire is great for voice, but not satisfying for media consumption. In a conversation I will never make a criticism of the quality as long as I get the message. When you watch movies you can't ask Brad Pitt to talk louder or turn down the soundtrack a little bit. In music I want every nuance to spring out of the speakers like live animals.

I sometimes use bluetooth for music, but only when the goal is to be convenient and cable free.

You are 100% correct in this matter. I use Bose noise canceling head phones on planes and there is no such thing in bluetooth at least not in Bose which has the best noise canceling headphones.

 

[MDull]

You guys are cracking my up lol. The last couple pages here are hilarious. I'd be willing to bet that Apple will not remove the headphone jack from ANY new device in the near future (including the iPhone 7). If you don't like the headphone jack, don't use it. If you like your $300 bluetooth headphones, use them. The whole point of a laptop is portable computing. Key word there is portable. When you require people to have to use an adapter or hub to plug in something as simple and as widely used as wired headphones, you take away some of the portability and convenience of a laptop (or a smartphone, in the case of the iPhone 7).

I don't understand this recent obsession with getting rid of ports. People act like the Macbook Pro is super thick but its not! The current Macbook Pro still looks great and there are very few high end laptops that are this thin, this light, this powerful and still have good battery life. The Macbook Pro is not the Macbook or the Macbook Air. It doesn't have to be super thin, it just has to be powerful and portable. Removing all of the popular ports won't do anything but annoy the owners who will be forced to buy adapters just to regain the functionality they lost.

Some of the people on here seem to expect Apple to stuff Macbook Pro power into a Macbook Air case without giving up battery life or performance. Those people will be very disappointed in a few months.

100% percent correct!

 

[metalisticpain]

If anything, a 2ft/3ft wire from your iPhone to your ear is more susceptible to interference than a half inch wire from the Bluetooth receiver to your ear. Though I guess any such interference is imperceptible.

Your conveniently forgetting the 40cm between your headphones and the computer. Bluetooth runs on the same wireless channel as pretty much most wireless devices (2.4Ghz). I have experienced a LOT more interference using bluetooth than wired. It is becoming very congested...

The 3.5mm jack is a lingering anomaly. Why drill a hole in a design to accommodate a tradition that has a bandwidth of 100kHz when Bluetooth can do the job much better? My guess is that Apple are afraid of upsetting all the iTunes experts who spend all their time and money consuming (i.e. not creating). I hope Apple does the right thing. Design and aesthetics should trump the needs of sensitive consumer types who want things to keep going as they always did.

Bluetooth is a transmission protocol, so its up to debate whether its better or not.

Your argument is whether digital is better than analogue (without a doubt) but this can be achieved with wired Lightning/USB-c ports. Wireless/bluetooth doesn't have to be in the picture.

People who spend all their time and money consuming... is apple's target audience.

It's not though. All the top studios are 100% digital. And have been for years. Wired headphones are a needless physical restriction and aesthetically unpleasing. Digital Bluetooth headphones come with a whole load of extra features.

What extra features would out weigh the need for millions of people to suddenly toss their headphones and buy new ones?

Curious what headphones you use? I assume since your all for bluetooth, that you actually use bluetooth headphones as the main pair?

Im in Aus so this is from the perspective of the aus market, but when i'm looking for new headphones I personally use www.headphones.com.au. If bluetooth is so superior of a transmission protocol, then why, when it is available in all modern phones right now, cars, etc. Why does this headphone specializing company, that have 40+ brands and a total of 303 different headphones... only have 8 that are bluetooth?

I don't think apple will force wireless only.
1, because its a negative experience for millions of consumers having to buy new headphones
2, because bluetooth still sucks. Its a pain to pair, its prone to audio anomalies and static interferance
3, its a battery drain and if apple did this in the macbook pro then they would do it in the iphone... and battery is a concern there.

 

[Oppenheim]

You are 100% correct in this matter. I use Bose noise canceling head phones on planes and there is no such thing in bluetooth at least not in Bose which has the best noise canceling headphones.

Noise cancelling headphones require batteries!

Why not go the whole hog and make them wireless? In recent years, Bluetooth low energy has improved even more and so has battery tech. It's an anomaly (functional anomaly and a design anomaly) to have a silly one-size-fits-all wire dangling around.

 

[Oppenheim]

I don't think apple will force wireless only.
1, because its a negative experience for millions of consumers having to buy new headphones
2, because bluetooth still sucks. Its a pain to pair, its prone to audio anomalies and static interferance
3, its a battery drain and if apple did this in the macbook pro then they would do it in the iphone... and battery is a concern there.

Points 2 and 3 are complete garbage.

Point one is very debatable. Apple bring out new connectors all the time. Sure, you will get a vocal minority who crib and moan, but eventually they will realise it's for their benefit. If you want compatibility with your 5 and 10 year-old peripherals that you bought cheap on alibaba, go buy a Dell.