The Panther Thread

[AmazingHenry]

This is an impressive post 1 we've got going!

So, rather than doing a Panther Market, I'm just going to make a website with all of the free software. It will have a similar UI to the Mac App Store. Unless @gavinstubbs09 wants to make a Panther section on the Archive or @redmanu wants to make the PPCAppStore for Panther. I don't want to compete with any of these great services!

 

[128keaton]

I thought you were abandoning projects? And leaving? Oh well.

 

[AmazingHenry]

I thought you were abandoning projects? And leaving? Oh well.

Over half the forum didn't seem to agree with my descison.

 

[z970]

Over half the forum didn't seem to agree with my descison.

Select few people are valuable additions.

 

[128keaton]

Everyone is a valuable addition.

Keep saying that..

 

[z970]

Keep saying that..

I never said that.

 

[AmazingHenry]

Select few people are valuable additions.

Nice edit!

 

[G4fanboy]

I thought you were abandoning projects? And leaving? Oh well.

It was me the one that revamped this post. Henry did not said anything about continuing the Panther stuff (he told about the themes but nothing about keep working on this Panther post), and Aphotic with his software gave me perfect excuse to revamp it.

I did cleaning and removed the download link to the OS. Sorry, but the last thing this kind of topic needs is a mod lock due to copyright concerns.

However, I've often thought about downgrading my iMac G3's to Panther (from Tiger). Those old workhorses are in need of a "last stand" and I think a Panther/OS9 combo is just what it needs. Previously, I thought of OS 9 only, but...this seems a bit better.

I said before that the Panther links from Henry were incomplete compared to the ones in Macintosh Garden

Blame government and their versions of the DMCA. Abandonware should be ok, but I am not a mod, should all of these be claimable:

1. The producer is no longer in business.
2. The software is no longer being made by anyone.
3. There is no outstanding copyright claim to it or revenue stream that still exists from the software.

If all three of those are met, then the link should be all right, but all three would likely need to be met.

IIRC the producer were Apple Computers and they are no longer on business. The new company (the one that makes phones and tablets) is called Apple Inc. A good lawyer can use that argument probably. I cant remember when Steve Jobs changed that exactly, but it were around the launch of an iPod

By the way, a new link for whiteout in the wayback machine that seems more complete:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050207094330/http://www.suicidegirls.com:80/apps/whiteout/

 

[z970]

Nice edit!

What edit?

 

[0248294]

IIRC the producer were Apple Computers and they are no longer on business. The new company (the one that makes phones and tablets) is called Apple Inc. A good lawyer can use that argument probably. I cant remember when Steve Jobs changed that exactly, but it were around the launch of an iPod

I'm no legal expert, but that sounds like an extremely weak argument. The software made by Apple Computer Incorporated was their IP, and I'm sure their IP didn't dissolve when they became Apple Incorporated. Abandonware in and of itself is a non-argument, unless the copyrights expired (which won't happen for a long while), or the developers behind it give up the copyrights (also highly unlikely), it is piracy. It's just piracy you're very likely not going to get sued over because no one cares. But that doesn't make it not piracy.

 

[z970]

I'm no legal expert, but that sounds like an extremely weak argument. The software made by Apple Computer Incorporated was their IP, and I'm sure their IP didn't dissolve when they became Apple Incorporated. Abandonware in and of itself is a non-argument, unless the copyrights expired (which won't happen for a long while), or the developers behind it give up the copyrights (also highly unlikely), it is piracy. It's just piracy you're very likely not going to get sued over because no one cares. But that doesn't make it not piracy.

So then, what am I to do when my Power Mac G5 requires at least 10.4.2, and nothing lower? All I have is the retail 10.4.0 CD. I'm supposed to buy previously used software restore discs for the late 2005 lineup, even though you can hardly ever even find them on eBay? What would you do if you were me only without the 10.4.2 CD I made, thanks to Macintosh Garden?

When you already own the OS disc, the computer compatible with it, are already an Apple customer, and are dealing with hardware and software running on a long abandoned architecture from more than 10 years ago, it isn't anywhere near piracy. I don't care if it's made by Microsoft or Apple, it's still abandonware.

Excuse me if I sound a little bit drunk right now. I just got up and didn't get anywhere near enough sleep.

Fly away me hearties me ho.

 

[0248294]

So then, what am I to do when my Power Mac G5 requires at least 10.4.2, and nothing lower? All I have is the retail 10.4.0 CD. I'm supposed to buy previously used software restore discs for the late 2005 lineup, even though you can hardly ever even find them on eBay? What would you do if you were me only without the 10.4.2 CD I made, thanks to Macintosh Garden?

When you already own the OS disc, the computer compatible with it, are already an Apple customer, and are dealing with hardware and software running on a long abandoned architecture from more than 10 years ago, it isn't anywhere near piracy. I don't care if it's made by Microsoft or Apple, it's still abandonware.

Excuse me if I sound a little bit drunk right now. I just got up and didn't get anywhere near enough sleep.

Fly away me hearties me ho.

Those are just excuses. Sure, no one will go after you. Sure, Apple doesn't care. Sure, Apple doesn't lose any cashflow. But OS X Tiger was, is, and will still be Apple's intellectual property which you got unauthorized, which is what piracy is. Age does not have any influence on that. If Apple wanted to sue you over it, they could easily do that. They won't, since it's a waste of resources, but they could because they are in their rights. I don't care that you download such old software, since I do it too, but let's not kid ourselves that what we're doing isn't piracy.

 

[z970]

Those are just excuses. Sure, no one will go after you. Sure, Apple doesn't care. Sure, Apple doesn't lose any cashflow. But OS X Tiger was, is, and will still be Apple's intellectual property which you got unauthorized, which is what piracy is. Age does not have any influence on that. If Apple wanted to sue you over it, they could easily do that. They won't, since it's a waste of resources, but they could because they are in their rights. I don't care that you download such old software, since I do it too, but let's not kid ourselves that what we're doing isn't piracy.

It isn't.

Watch me purchase a copy of OS X Tiger from Apple. ...But it's no longer supported. In other words, Apple couldn't care less what happens to it. Their IP, sure. But the operating system, no.

They're not excuses, they're facts! If I needed help with this computer of mine, Apple would be no help! And if the world followed their rules, you wouldn't be able to install Linux on it, because that would be modifying their property.

If I purchased a used copy of Tiger from an imaginary friend, it would still be unauthorized. Apple gets no money, Apple has no idea what happened. All the difference is, is that this time, my copy is boxed. What if this friend of mine gave me it for free, in a dark alley at night? It would go totally unknown.

Age has great influence on that, copyrights and trademarks expire. Sure, not after a couple years. They're not even expired now. But time does have an effect.

No, they couldn't. They would sue Macintosh Garden, since they're the ones hosting it and providing the download. And even then, Macintosh Garden is based in Europe! Apple still wouldn't be able to do anything!

 

[eyoungren]

Select few people are valuable additions.

Let's not get into whose valueable or not based on personal opinions.

There have been plenty of people on these forums since I joined in 2011 that I don't like but they contributed/still contribute. And that's all that matters.

Considering how dead Panther is as an OS I welcome any contribution to making it more useful.
[doublepost=1500051611][/doublepost]

It isn't.

Watch me purchase a copy of OS X Tiger from Apple. ...But it's no longer supported. In other words, Apple couldn't care less what happens to it. Their IP, sure. But the operating system, no.

They're not excuses, they're facts! If I needed help with this computer of mine, Apple would be no help! And if the world followed their rules, you wouldn't be able to install Linux on it, because that would be modifying their property.

If I purchased a used copy of Tiger from an imaginary friend, it would still be unauthorized. Apple gets no money, Apple has no idea what happened. All the difference is, is that this time, my copy is boxed. What if this friend of mine gave me it for free, in a dark alley at night? It would go totally unknown.

Age has great influence on that, copyrights and trademarks expire. Sure, not after a couple years. They're not even expired now. But time does have an effect.

No, they couldn't. They would sue Macintosh Garden, since they're the ones hosting it and providing the download. And even then, Macintosh Garden is based in Europe! Apple still wouldn't be able to do anything!

I'm not arguing for or against you, but two questions.

1. Will the defense you've made in your post hold up in court? I..e, would a judge see things your way and rule in your favor?
2. Whether Apple does or does not, can or cannot do anything does this then justify it? Because I can think of a lot of other *crimes* we'd all be revolted by that this justifcation could apply to.

Just asking.

 

[0248294]

It isn't.

Watch me purchase a copy of OS X Tiger from Apple. ...But it's no longer supported. In other words, Apple couldn't care less what happens to it. Their IP, sure. But the operating system, no.

Their software = their IP.

They're not excuses, they're facts! If I needed help with this computer of mine, Apple would be no help! And if the world followed their rules, you wouldn't be able to install Linux on it, because that would be modifying their property.

Running Linux on a Mac isn't modifying their property. There's no EULA supplied with your Mac that states you cannot run a different OS on your Mac. OS X however has an EULA that specifically states one cannot run it on non-Apple hardware, but that's a different case. Apple not supporting your Mac does not have any changes for IP law.

If I purchased a used copy of Tiger from an imaginary friend, it would still be unauthorized. Apple gets no money, Apple has no idea what happened. All the difference is, is that this time, my copy is boxed. What if this friend of mine gave me it for free, in a dark alley at night? It would go totally unknown.

Wrong again. The EULA for OS X specifically states that you may sell the software, if you make sure you retain no copy of it, and that you transfer all the materials related to it over to the one you're selling it to. Allow me the quote Apple themselves:

Transfer.
You may not rent, lease, lend, sell, redistribute or sublicense the Apple Software. Subject to the restrictions set forth below, you may, however, make a one-time permanent transfer of all of your license rights to the Apple Software (in its original form as provided by Apple) to another party, provided that: (a) the transfer must include all of the Apple Software, including all its component parts (excluding Apple Boot ROM code and firmware), original media, printed materials and this License; (b) you do not retain any copies of the Apple Software, full or partial, including copies stored on a computer or other storage device; and (c) the party receiving the Apple Software reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this License.

Age has great influence on that, copyrights and trademarks expire. Sure, not after a couple years. They're not even expired now. But time does have an effect.

A judge would really not accept this argument would it be used in a court case. Either there are copyrights, or there aren't. The time it takes for copyrights to expire is nearly a century, and I think Apple would still have avenues to extend it further should that time arrive.

No, they couldn't. They would sue Macintosh Garden, since they're the ones hosting it and providing the download. And even then, Macintosh Garden is based in Europe! Apple still wouldn't be able to do anything!

Yes, they could, as a matter of fact, they could do with both. That's like saying "I bought illegal drugs, but the dealer provided it so he is the only one accountable!". And do you really think Apple doesn't have avenues to sue an individual in the EU? You do realize Apple is one of the biggest tech companies around right now, with offices and legal teams around the world, right? The EU has plenty of avenues for them to pursue a court case against the Macintosh Garden if Apple so pleases.

Again, I'm not saying you're a dirty criminal for downloading such software, nor that Apple would take the time and money to sue the MG or any of its users, but you can't hide the fact that it is illegal, because by law it just is. No argument that you have given me could actually be used in court should such a case come to existance.

 

[z970]

Let's not get into whose valueable or not based on personal opinions.

There have been plenty of people on these forums since I joined in 2011 that I don't like but they contributed/still contribute. And that's all that matters.

Considering how dead Panther is as an OS I welcome any contribution to making it more useful.
[doublepost=1500051611][/doublepost]
I'm not arguing for or against you, but two questions.

1. Will the defense you've made in your post hold up in court? I..e, would a judge see things your way and rule in your favor?
2. Whether Apple does or does not, can or cannot do anything does this then justify it? Because I can think of a lot of other *crimes* we'd all be revolted by that this justifcation could apply to.

Just asking.

So do I. Did you see the wink?

Probably not. - Not really.

Their software = their IP.



Running Linux on a Mac isn't modifying their property. There's no EULA supplied with your Mac that states you cannot run a different OS on your Mac. OS X however has an EULA that specifically states one cannot run it on non-Apple hardware, but that's a different case. Apple not supporting your Mac does not have any changes for IP law.



Wrong again. The EULA for OS X specifically states that you may sell the software, if you make sure you retain no copy of it, and that you transfer all the materials related to it over to the one you're selling it to. Allow me the quote Apple themselves:





A judge would really not accept this argument would it be used in a court case. Either there are copyrights, or there aren't. The time it takes for copyrights to expire is nearly a century, and I think Apple would still have avenues to extend it further should that time arrive.



Yes, they could, as a matter of fact, they could do with both. That's like saying "I bought illegal drugs, but the dealer provided it so he is the only one accountable!". And do you really think Apple doesn't have avenues to sue an individual in the EU? You do realize Apple is one of the biggest tech companies around right now, with offices and legal teams around the world, right? The EU has plenty of avenues for them to pursue a court case against the Macintosh Garden if Apple so pleases.

Again, I'm not saying you're a dirty criminal for downloading such software, nor that Apple would take the time and money to sue the MG or any of its users, but you can't hide the fact that it is illegal, because by law it just is. No argument that you have given me could actually be used in court should such a case come to existance.

To be honest, I actually haven't read the EULA, I'm just using my stance. Ignorant, and ill-advised, I know. Oh well.

I still don't think it's illegal. Let's just agree to disagree, alright?

At least we all have the same goal for old stuff. That's what matters.

 

[bunnspecial]

The corporate name nonsense is just that-Apple Inc. is the same legal entity as Apple Computer Inc.

It's no different from if I were to go to court and change my legal name. I would not suddenly lose all my assets-my cash in the bank, my cars, etc. They would remain my property even though they were bought under a different name. I'd have to go and get a driver's license with my new name on it, but I wouldn't suddenly have to retake a driver's test as I'm still the same person.

BTW, you can primarily blame Disney for copyright laws being as they are now. Apple wasn't even a figment of the Steves' imagination when most of this went into effect. We may not like it, but none the less that's how they are.

 

[eyoungren]

I still don't think it's illegal. Let's just agree to disagree, alright?

Again, I'm not arguing one way or the other. I was just asking questions.

Whatever you or I believe however doesn't matter in the end. Here on MR it's whatever the mods and the admins believe and outside of that it's whatever the courts believe.

I just find it best, whatever my personal opinions or private actions, to keep this kind of thing to myself. So far it's been working for me.
[doublepost=1500052927][/doublepost]

BTW, you can primarily blame Disney for copyright laws being as they are now. Apple wasn't even a figment of the Steves' imagination when most of this went into effect. We may not like it, but none the less that's how they are.

I once had a customer wanting minions in their newspaper ad to promote their ice cream shop.

Of course they had no waiver from Disney.

Scary!

 

[0248294]

I once had a customer wanting minions in their newspaper ad to promote their ice cream shop.

Of course they had no waiver from Disney.

Scary!

Of course they wouldn't have one from Disney, given the Despicable Me movies are from Illumination Entertainment

Anyway, let's get back to Panther from all this legal kerfuffle

 

[eyoungren]

Of course they wouldn't have one from Disney, given the Despicable Me movies are from Illumination Entertainment

Guess that's why they weren't worred then. My bad.

 

[G4fanboy]

[doublepost=1500054956][/doublepost]A good spanish article:
https://www.applesfera.com/apple/ma...do-en-un-principio-especial-historia-mac-os-x
[doublepost=1500055184][/doublepost]Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Panther

sent me to waybackmachine Panther as the latest Mac OS: https://web.archive.org/web/20050111015225/http://www.apple.com/macosx/

 

[gavinstubbs09]

I need to really put some time in the archive, I know people have been dying for a Tiger selection, and then a Panther selection so I might end up just designing a completely new website. Something other than weebly because over the years they just make it worse and worse, I liked using it in 2013, but not now!

 

[z970]

I need to really put some time in the archive, I know people have been dying for a Tiger selection, and then a Panther selection so I might end up just designing a completely new website. Something other than weebly because over the years they just make it worse and worse, I liked using it in 2013, but not now!

What archive/site are you mentioning, if I may have the pleasure of knowing?

 

[gavinstubbs09]

What archive/site are you mentioning, if I may have the pleasure of knowing?

The PowerPC Archive site I own.

http://ppcarchive.dyniform.net/

 

[z970]

The PowerPC Archive site I own.

http://ppcarchive.dyniform.net/

Cool!

I bookmarked your site. I'm expecting great things from you.

Great things!