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Makisupa Policeman

macrumors 6502
Sep 28, 2021
488
354
Interesting opinion on the topic, but yes, 12 is too small to get work done. And the MBA/mbp 14 m3 has shown us that only the lid closed function for 2 external displays will work, so you have to get a keyboard and mouse, and the portability thing goes away.
To me the 14” MBP is actually plenty portable, but if I went back to a 12” MB for a couple weeks it would feel like a total brick. Kind of all relative based on what you get used to for a while.

Still, there was something about that 12” that was just such a treat to take around with you everywhere. With a 14” MBP—or even a 13” MBA—I still feel like there’s a tad bit of babying the device and preparation involved to get set up somewhere else other than my desk, whereas the 12” MB I felt like I could just toss around like an iPad. I’m probably a little overly paranoid with my devices though, so there’s that.
 
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StoneJack

macrumors 68030
Dec 19, 2009
2,711
1,940
I think that the biggest problem is how to position Macbook 12 inch M(3) in the line up. Right now, MBA and Macbook Pro lines are quite well positioned. But if add 12 incher...
Should it be a premium model? Above MBA? priced like at 1300?
Should it be a budget offering? Priced about 999?
Being an Apple product, it will start with 8/256 specs, but price?
Is light weight a top priority or 12 inch display a priority?
Based purely on display size, there is a slot below MBA, so maybe 899 or so. Which makes it CPU probably M2 at best and maybe no HDR display. Other than that it overlaps with MBA 13 inch
 
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Makisupa Policeman

macrumors 6502
Sep 28, 2021
488
354
I think that the biggest problem is how to position Macbook 12 inch M(3) in the line up. Right now, MBA and Macbook Pro lines are quite well positioned. But if add 12 incher...
Should it be a premium model? Above MBA? priced like at 1300?
Should it be a budget offering? Priced about 999?
Being an Apple product, it will start with 8/256 specs, but price?
Is light weight a top priority or 12 inch display a priority?
Based purely on display size, there is a slot below MBA, so maybe 899 or so. Which makes it CPU probably M2 at best and maybe no HDR display. Other than that it overlaps with MBA 13 inch
Honestly, I wish they'd just taken the original ff and thrown a M1 in it. But that time has come and gone since Apple's design language has moved back to more "boxy" designs.

I'd probably prioritize weight and footprint over any other considerations. But I'd also expect that the small footprint would need to come at a bit of a premium which would make it a niche/redundant product when you could probably get the M3 MBA for less.
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Nov 2, 2017
2,625
5,477
I think that the biggest problem is how to position Macbook 12 inch M(3) in the line up. Right now, MBA and Macbook Pro lines are quite well positioned. But if add 12 incher...
Should it be a premium model? Above MBA? priced like at 1300?
Should it be a budget offering? Priced about 999?
Being an Apple product, it will start with 8/256 specs, but price?
Is light weight a top priority or 12 inch display a priority?
Based purely on display size, there is a slot below MBA, so maybe 899 or so. Which makes it CPU probably M2 at best and maybe no HDR display. Other than that it overlaps with MBA 13 inch
A small laptop like the 12” laptop would cost more to design and manufacture than a bigger thicker 13”. Therefore it doesn’t make sense to sell them cheaper.

The $1300 is taken by 15” MBA. $1100 by 13”.
 
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voicycle

macrumors newbie
Apr 6, 2024
6
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- Portability: You'd have to demonstrate a real example of how half a pound of weight or 1 inch of overall size changes the portability of the product. And you can't. These are close enough that they will fit in the same bags, can be physically carried by the same people, etc. There just isn't a single argument here.

Having transported a 12” Macbook around for years, I can safely say you are wrong here. There is definitely a portability difference, that makes a clear difference. Now the market for users who wants that is going to be miniscule, so not worth it to market.

Having transported all manner of laptops around for decades, I can safely say you are wrong here. 1/2 lb or 1" in overall size does not fundamentally change how it is transported, or when/how it can be used.

The issue with this whole debate is about what 'portability' and 'transporting' mean. In American suburbia where transport is home>car>office it doesn't make much difference. Even in urban routine settings where it's as complicated as home>bus>train>office there's not all that much carry time involved. Maybe it starts to matter a bit more if you're flying a lot and have to go through security, etc. but even then most travellers have a wheeled cabin bag to hold the weight of their laptop bag for the bulk of the on-foot parts of the journey.

Change the work pattern to a freelancer in an urban environment with meetings in multiple city centre locations every day and admin work done in cafes or on trains in between locations though, and then it matters a lot. In fact, it almost becomes worth it to think about your work bag with the same level of scrutiny as an ultralight backpacker on the Appalachian Trail.

It's not always about what you can functionally pack/carry for 5-20 minutes at a time. In some use cases it's much more about the cumulative fatigue of carrying that weight for 5-20 minutes up to a dozen times a day and repeating that 3-5 days per week.

if you factor in women, professional women, who want something portable, reliable and powerful.

Many here have written about the appeal of the 12" for students.

I will argue that there is an even larger (potential) demographic, one that is less well reflected on tech sites, (which is yet another argument for diversity in tech design teams, but, I digress), namely, professional women.

Also this - I described my experience above as an average size/strength man in his 20s-30s, but if I were smaller or more slight (regardless of gender but statistically more likely if I were female) then it would have required even less daily carry time for the weight difference to have the same impact.

a tad bit of babying the device and preparation involved to get set up somewhere else other than my desk, whereas the 12” MB I felt like I could just toss around like an iPad.

And beyond just weight, that aspect mattered a lot too when I was constantly on the go.

Thankfully I'm now past that stage in my career, but this was what the device progression was like for me:

  • 2011 MBA 13" - 1350g - felt at first like the most portable thing I'd ever experienced; but over time I could feel its weight on my shoulders after long days. 95% of the time I was just using browser/email, so I wanted something lighter/smaller that still had a full keyboard but allowed me to leave the laptop at home more.
  • 2013 iPad Air cellular 1st gen + Logitech Keyboard hard case - 478+332=810g - I took this thing with me everywhere regardless of whether I thought I'd need it or not. It wasn't the most efficient in terms of workflow though, and at the time iOS word processing options weren't amazing so I'd often use it to draft chunks of text which I'd then incorporate into more full-featured applications once I got back home to the MBA. Basically it was an iPhone with a bit more screen real estate and a keyboard.
  • 2015 MacBook 12" - 920g - Made my iPad setup almost instantly obsolete. For an extra 110g and a roughly identical footprint I could have a full desktop OS! There was never even a debate for me about whether to bring a laptop or iPad. I'm not sure why exactly, but the 110g from 810 to 920 had no impact on me, whilst the 430g difference between MB12 and MBA13 was the tipping point in major shoulder soreness.
As my working patterns shifted I put a 27" iMac on my desk and was incredibly grateful for the extra screen real estate - big projects got much more efficient and now I prefer it for pretty much anything that's not primarily text-based.

The MB12 feels cramped by comparison and I'm sort of surprised I was ok with it as my only computer for five years, but crucially it still feels capable and I think this is the absolute heart of what makes that device amazing and why we're still here discussing it. If I had to do significant amounts of visual work while travelling then MB12 would be frustratingly inefficient. If I could 100% rely on only having to do the basics while travelling then MB12 has no real advantage over an equivalent size/weight iPad/keyboard setup. But in reality the iPad setup only covers about 90-95% of what I need to do on the go. With MB12 I'm not necessarily going to be efficient or comfortable in my workflow for that last 5-10%, but at least I have the capability to get through it when needed.

IMO that's who this device is for - a very mobile professional whose needs are mostly covered by an iPad, but who cannot sacrifice short-notice access to desktop functionality as a backup plan.

Because of the iMac at home I've managed to keep using my 2015 MB12 as my only travel computer for nine years now. I had to change the battery a couple years ago and it's started to run a bit slow in the last few months, but I'm still holding out on replacing it becuase I really don't want to take the 320g penalty of going to a current MBA13 at 1240g. Even iPad Pro + Magic Keyboad at 466+601=1067g would be heavier.

Since reading this thread and realising that I have one of the 1st gen 'bad' MB12s I'm actually now wondering if I should pick up a refurbed top spec 2017 model in hopes of extending the useful life of this form factor a few more years. I'm not carrying it in the same way I used to, but when I do need to take it with me even its comparatively small portability advantages still make a big difference to me. I may not represent the majority of the Apple laptop market, but I definitely think there are enough users like me to make it worth resurrecting.

🤞
 

LaterWolf

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 17, 2022
250
154
Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
I think that the biggest problem is how to position Macbook 12 inch M(3) in the line up. Right now, MBA and Macbook Pro lines are quite well positioned. But if add 12 incher...
Should it be a premium model? Above MBA? priced like at 1300?
Should it be a budget offering? Priced about 999?
Being an Apple product, it will start with 8/256 specs, but price?
Is light weight a top priority or 12 inch display a priority?
Based purely on display size, there is a slot below MBA, so maybe 899 or so. Which makes it CPU probably M2 at best and maybe no HDR display. Other than that it overlaps with MBA 13 inch
In terms of the priorities, in the 2015 keynote, it was said that the keyboard defined the size of the laptop, so 12 inches
So that leaves weight as a top priority.
 
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turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
17,266
39,767
I still would absolutely love a 12"

A maxed out one would become my "only Mac"... docked to my OLED at home and hyper portable for when I travel

ASi was supposed to be PERFECT for this type of device.
C'mon Apple - Do it!
 
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LaterWolf

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 17, 2022
250
154
Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
The issue with this whole debate is about what 'portability' and 'transporting' mean. In American suburbia where transport is home>car>office it doesn't make much difference. Even in urban routine settings where it's as complicated as home>bus>train>office there's not all that much carry time involved. Maybe it starts to matter a bit more if you're flying a lot and have to go through security, etc. but even then most travellers have a wheeled cabin bag to hold the weight of their laptop bag for the bulk of the on-foot parts of the journey.

Change the work pattern to a freelancer in an urban environment with meetings in multiple city centre locations every day and admin work done in cafes or on trains in between locations though, and then it matters a lot. In fact, it almost becomes worth it to think about your work bag with the same level of scrutiny as an ultralight backpacker on the Appalachian Trail.

It's not always about what you can functionally pack/carry for 5-20 minutes at a time. In some use cases it's much more about the cumulative fatigue of carrying that weight for 5-20 minutes up to a dozen times a day and repeating that 3-5 days per week.



Also this - I described my experience above as an average size/strength man in his 20s-30s, but if I were smaller or more slight (regardless of gender but statistically more likely if I were female) then it would have required even less daily carry time for the weight difference to have the same impact.



And beyond just weight, that aspect mattered a lot too when I was constantly on the go.

Thankfully I'm now past that stage in my career, but this was what the device progression was like for me:

  • 2011 MBA 13" - 1350g - felt at first like the most portable thing I'd ever experienced; but over time I could feel its weight on my shoulders after long days. 95% of the time I was just using browser/email, so I wanted something lighter/smaller that still had a full keyboard but allowed me to leave the laptop at home more.
  • 2013 iPad Air cellular 1st gen + Logitech Keyboard hard case - 478+332=810g - I took this thing with me everywhere regardless of whether I thought I'd need it or not. It wasn't the most efficient in terms of workflow though, and at the time iOS word processing options weren't amazing so I'd often use it to draft chunks of text which I'd then incorporate into more full-featured applications once I got back home to the MBA. Basically it was an iPhone with a bit more screen real estate and a keyboard.
  • 2015 MacBook 12" - 920g - Made my iPad setup almost instantly obsolete. For an extra 110g and a roughly identical footprint I could have a full desktop OS! There was never even a debate for me about whether to bring a laptop or iPad. I'm not sure why exactly, but the 110g from 810 to 920 had no impact on me, whilst the 430g difference between MB12 and MBA13 was the tipping point in major shoulder soreness.
As my working patterns shifted I put a 27" iMac on my desk and was incredibly grateful for the extra screen real estate - big projects got much more efficient and now I prefer it for pretty much anything that's not primarily text-based.

The MB12 feels cramped by comparison and I'm sort of surprised I was ok with it as my only computer for five years, but crucially it still feels capable and I think this is the absolute heart of what makes that device amazing and why we're still here discussing it. If I had to do significant amounts of visual work while travelling then MB12 would be frustratingly inefficient. If I could 100% rely on only having to do the basics while travelling then MB12 has no real advantage over an equivalent size/weight iPad/keyboard setup. But in reality the iPad setup only covers about 90-95% of what I need to do on the go. With MB12 I'm not necessarily going to be efficient or comfortable in my workflow for that last 5-10%, but at least I have the capability to get through it when needed.

IMO that's who this device is for - a very mobile professional whose needs are mostly covered by an iPad, but who cannot sacrifice short-notice access to desktop functionality as a backup plan.

Because of the iMac at home I've managed to keep using my 2015 MB12 as my only travel computer for nine years now. I had to change the battery a couple years ago and it's started to run a bit slow in the last few months, but I'm still holding out on replacing it becuase I really don't want to take the 320g penalty of going to a current MBA13 at 1240g. Even iPad Pro + Magic Keyboad at 466+601=1067g would be heavier.

Since reading this thread and realising that I have one of the 1st gen 'bad' MB12s I'm actually now wondering if I should pick up a refurbed top spec 2017 model in hopes of extending the useful life of this form factor a few more years. I'm not carrying it in the same way I used to, but when I do need to take it with me even its comparatively small portability advantages still make a big difference to me. I may not represent the majority of the Apple laptop market, but I definitely think there are enough users like me to make it worth resurrecting.

🤞
That's long....

Anyways, in terms of the market, apple has evolved a lot, which makes the placement really, really hard. And if you want to pick up a iPP you would have to deal with iPadOS, which makes overpowered hardware underutilised software

If they added something like tablet Samsung DeX I might switch my tab s9
 

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
6,234
7,270
Seattle
A small laptop like the 12” laptop would cost more to design and manufacture than a bigger thicker 13”. Therefore it doesn’t make sense to sell them cheaper.

The $1300 is taken by 15” MBA. $1100 by 13”.
If that were true, then smaller phones would cost more. In fact they don’t and don’t sell as well as larger phones. If Apple were to try to sell a smaller MacBook Mini at a price higher than the MacBook Air, it just wouldn’t sell. People don’t tend to pay more for smaller things.
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Nov 2, 2017
2,625
5,477
If that were true, then smaller phones would cost more. In fact they don’t and don’t sell as well as larger phones. If Apple were to try to sell a smaller MacBook Mini at a price higher than the MacBook Air, it just wouldn’t sell. People don’t tend to pay more for smaller things.
Smaller phones have inferior specs than larger phones. They're niche phones and are not flagship. They use lesser hardware, parts, screens, software support, etc.

A 12" cannot have lesser specs than a 13"/15" MBA already. A 13/15" MBA already have 60hz displays LCD, 8/256. It's the lowest Apple can go to provide a good "Mac" experience. There is nothing else to downgrade.
 
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throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,137
7,294
Perth, Western Australia
Very possible to produce, but has significant overlap with the iPad.

It will be interesting to see if Apple do it, I think there's room there maybe to get rid of the lower spec of MacBook Air and introduce a basic "MacBook" in 12" size.

I know people who absolutely adored the 12" MacBook except for the chronic keyboard problems.

The keyboards apple make are now good, and the processors are better than good. All the problems with the intel 12" machines are fixed.

Whilst I'd have no interest in it, there's always a set of people (and I'd say they're a large part of Apple's customer base) who always want thinner and lighter; and they don't really need a high end machine. They just want something thin, light, portable and well built that runs macOS.

As an example, my ex loved the 11" air instead of the 13" as it fit in her daily carry handbag. The 13" didn't.
 
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voicycle

macrumors newbie
Apr 6, 2024
6
4
significant overlap with the iPad.

Was just thinking about how much of this is down to the OS rather than the hardware. If iPad Pro plus Magic Keyboard could boot the desktop OS I bet that would cover the vast majority of us that are hoping for a MB12 ASi. Not all of us, but probably most. Pretty sure I'm on my second or even third iPhone that outspecs my MB12 in every way, so I can't imagine a current iPad would need any beefier hardware to run desktop OS.

It wouldn't even have to be the desktop OS per se. All we really need is desktop-like capabilities in iPadOS - something that isn't quite so iPhone-adjacent and sits nearer to the midpoint between desktop and iOS would probably do it.

Don't windows based tablet/laptop crossovers have a much more adaptable OS like this? I've never used one but I'm reminded of ads for Lenovo Yoga and similar. Have they got usability dialled or do they suffer the opposite compromise by being too desktop-centric and functioning poorly as tablets?
 
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dgdosen

macrumors 68030
Dec 13, 2003
2,817
1,463
Seattle
A small laptop like the 12” laptop would cost more to design and manufacture than a bigger thicker 13”. Therefore it doesn’t make sense to sell them cheaper.

The $1300 is taken by 15” MBA. $1100 by 13”.
I'd say this thinking drives the Tim Cook led Apple.

The wanting an ultraportable 2lb 12" mac is a passion thing. That thinking is a relic of the Ives era. For all its warts, I still miss it and want an OLED/ARM laptop in that size. If Apple doesn't make one, I hope someone else does.
 
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za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,931
A small laptop like the 12” laptop would cost more to design and manufacture than a bigger thicker 13”. Therefore it doesn’t make sense to sell them cheaper.
That's actually not really the case. The M1 logic board would fit readily in a 12-inch casing, the keyboard would be the same, the cost of manufacturing the casing would be the same, but the materials cost lower, and the panel about the same.

The only reason to price it higher for sale is if the demand for the product is driven by pure enthusiasm for the small form factor, in which case it could command a premium price. Otherwise it could slot neatly in the entry level niche.

Apple already invented the scaled down solutions for things like the multi-level battery packs needed in the sub-notebook design, so those technologies already exist and are paid for.

The reason they don't make one is that more than likely they don't see a large enough market for them to sell into.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
17,266
39,767
I'd say this thinking drives the Tim Cook led Apple.

Exactly right
It's also why I'm so ready for a change of leadership

We aren't getting so many interesting and useful products we could be getting from this company anymore.
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Nov 2, 2017
2,625
5,477
That's actually not really the case. The M1 logic board would fit readily in a 12-inch casing, the keyboard would be the same, the cost of manufacturing the casing would be the same, but the materials cost lower, and the panel about the same.

The only reason to price it higher for sale is if the demand for the product is driven by pure enthusiasm for the small form factor, in which case it could command a premium price. Otherwise it could slot neatly in the entry level niche.

Apple already invented the scaled down solutions for things like the multi-level battery packs needed in the sub-notebook design, so those technologies already exist and are paid for.

The reason they don't make one is that more than likely they don't see a large enough market for them to sell into.
Apple wouldn’t release a 12” in the same shell as one from nearly 10 years ago.

If they release one in 2024, they will attempt to wow everyone by making it impossibly thin and light.
 
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za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,931
Apple wouldn’t release a 12” in the same shell as one from nearly 10 years ago.

If they release one in 2024, they will attempt to wow everyone by making it impossibly thin and light.
The problem with this idea isn't that it's a bad one, but that there are very real limitations on exactly how thin you can go with an actual computer.

They would have to accommodate a keyboard, display and battery, not to also mention a physical enclosure. I suspect that puts the minimum thickness at close to the present M2/M3 MacBook Air in practical terms. Shave much off that, and the display won't be rigid, the keyboard unusable, the casing too flexible or the battery life really poor. The prior MBA case at least had the benefit of internal space towards the rear - though looking at how it was built, 'space' isn't the right word!
 

DHagan4755

macrumors 68020
Jul 18, 2002
2,252
6,125
Massachusetts
When the rumors circulated that an Apple Silicon "12-inch MacBook" was in the works, my read of the situation left me with the impression it was more akin to the 12" PowerBook G4 than the thin and ultra portable Intel 12" MacBook Air from 2015.

MacBook-12-inch-retina-vs-PowerBook-12-inch-color.jpg

A revival of the MacBook on the left would be awesome. A revival of the MacBook on the right with the taller 4:3 aspect ratio screen and the power of a MacBook Pro would be awesome too. Imagine both with thinned out bezels! One can dream... ok back to reality.
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,931
When the rumors circulated that an Apple Silicon "12-inch MacBook" was in the works, my read of the situation left me with the impression it was more akin to the 12" PowerBook G4 than the thin and ultra portable Intel 12" MacBook Air from 2015.

A revival of the MacBook on the left would be awesome. A revival of the MacBook on the right with the taller 4:3 aspect ratio screen and the power of a MacBook Pro would be awesome too. Imagine both with thinned out bezels! One can dream... ok back to reality.
I really like the idea of this, and to me it would be a perfect choice, not least because if there's one Mac laptop design that the 15-inch MBA reminds me of, it's the TiBook. Remarkably similar design language and a modern reimagining of an old and lamented classic.

A 2024 reimagining of the 12-inch G4 PowerBook.... oh yeah!!
 

MRMSFC

macrumors 6502
Jul 6, 2023
369
379
When the rumors circulated that an Apple Silicon "12-inch MacBook" was in the works, my read of the situation left me with the impression it was more akin to the 12" PowerBook G4 than the thin and ultra portable Intel 12" MacBook Air from 2015.

A revival of the MacBook on the left would be awesome. A revival of the MacBook on the right with the taller 4:3 aspect ratio screen and the power of a MacBook Pro would be awesome too. Imagine both with thinned out bezels! One can dream... ok back to reality.
Man, I love the way the 12” G4 Powerbook looks. I’d love to see something along the lines of an m3-pro powered 12” mbp. But I won’t hold my breath over it.
 

MrGunny94

macrumors 65816
Dec 3, 2016
1,147
674
Malaga, Spain
I know multiple people still hanging to their 12" especially women who put them inside the woman's purse... I'd like to see a 12" ARM OLED model now that we have Apple Silicon.

I was really expecting them to release a compact Macbook after the transition.
 
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