Other This is why I will not buy iPhone 12: OLED = PWM

[mkoai]

I'm sorry to read this. I would suggest your only real option is to get an external monitor that your eyes can tolerate. Its not ideal and comes at a cost, but you cannot continue damaging your health. Your employer should fit the bill (unless your self employed) but worst come to the worst you need to do what's right for your health.

I've avoided "upgrading" to Big Sur for fear of bugs and incompatibility with the Adobe suite which are my tools for graphic work. Not reading good things about it generally.

First off— thank you for this incredibly warm and considerate reply.

I also use CC, and that works fine I've only had maybe two issues where the apps get stuck at the splash screen which I never had before.

But as a graphics professional, I'm sure you'll be annoyed by apples choice to use inconsistent padding around the window buttons and UI. It took me a while to get used to, and I'm still using the computer with hesitation because the changes in mac os 11 were so minor and nonsensical I constantly feel like there's something different but I can't tell what, so I move hesitantly.

It is a partnership that I work under so I'm going to check out the latest models because I'm out of the loop and if that doesn't suffice I'll use your suggestion and try an external monitor. It's just a little uncomfortable doing so with a big imac on the desk already.

 

[jimmy_uk]

First off— thank you for this incredibly warm and considerate reply.

I also use CC, and that works fine I've only had maybe two issues where the apps get stuck at the splash screen which I never had before.

But as a graphics professional, I'm sure you'll be annoyed by apples choice to use inconsistent padding around the window buttons and UI. It took me a while to get used to, and I'm still using the computer with hesitation because the changes in mac os 11 were so minor and nonsensical I constantly feel like there's something different but I can't tell what, so I move hesitantly.

It is a partnership that I work under so I'm going to check out the latest models because I'm out of the loop and if that doesn't suffice I'll use your suggestion and try an external monitor. It's just a little uncomfortable doing so with a big imac on the desk already.

I hear you. I'm in the process of trying to convince my employer to buy me an additional monitor as I work with alot of reference material, so working on one screen is a pain. But spending any amount of money during the economic down turn is a big ask it seems. As you say, finding the space will be a whole other issue!

Out of interest which iMac are you using? As I understand it, it may have only been the last refresh which introduced some PWM? Something to keep in mind when considering and external monitor as it may not be the screen that's the issue.

For reference I'm running a 27" 2017 and have no issues (well I could always use more RAM).

 

[mkoai]

So my mac upgraded to the latest version 11.2 and it hasn't made me sick since ? I feel like they totally knew about this

 

[jrajpaul]

Has anyone done the iOS 14.5 beta update. Maybe this has improved the oled pwm settings on the 12 pro?!

 

[MICHAELSD]

Has anyone done the iOS 14.5 beta update. Maybe this has improved the oled pwm settings on the 12 pro?!

In all of the past generations there has never been an iOS update that improved the PWM. I do check the release notes occasionally to see if they’ve added a DC dimming mode, but it hasn’t happened yet and it’s unlikely to be added if it didn’t ship with the device.

 

[MICHAELSD]

I noticed I took a slo-mo video of the standard iPhone 12 back in December and at 100% brightness it’s difficult to detect any flickering, although it’s definitely there. I actually had to check whether I had the slo-mo enabled in the video or if it was sped up to normal speed. (It is in slo-mo.) I don’t think this would make a difference compared to the Max, just felt it was worth noting. The light background may also make it less noticeable oddly since the iPhone 12 Pro next to it with a black/gold stock wallpaper visibly flickered like crazy.

Regardless I’m over the iPhone 12 series unless they add an update with a DC dimming option, and will wait to see what happens with iPhone 13 at this point.

 

[jrajpaul]

In all of the past generations there has never been an iOS update that improved the PWM. I do check the release notes occasionally to see if they’ve added a DC dimming mode, but it hasn’t happened yet and it’s unlikely to be added if it didn’t ship with the device.

I have the iPhone X which causes mild headache after prolonged use and I have the 12 pro which is unusable after 5 mins - severe headache nausea and dizziness. I considered that perhaps there are software issues which controls the display (there are other issues such as flickering and green tint which Apple says will be fixed with software). I’m also hoping that they add a setting in accessibility for users who have sensitive eyes.

 

[kargurin]

In all of the past generations there has never been an iOS update that improved the PWM. I do check the release notes occasionally to see if they’ve added a DC dimming mode, but it hasn’t happened yet and it’s unlikely to be added if it didn’t ship with the device.

DC dimming doesn't have much of a track record. OnePlus has not included the option in it's latest flagship for T Mobile and it proportedly introduces crushed blacks and color artifacts. I just don't see many fans of this solution (aka 'flicker free eye care' / DC Dimming in OnePlus lab options)

 

[MICHAELSD]

DC dimming doesn't have much of a track record. OnePlus has not included the option in it's latest flagship for T Mobile and it proportedly introduces crushed blacks and color artifacts. I just don't see many fans of this solution (aka 'flicker free eye care' / DC Dimming in OnePlus lab options)

FWIW Reduce White Point also causes issues with gray shades and many of the Accessibility display options introduce color artifacts. DC dimming in some form could be worth a shot, even if it was limited.

 

[jrajpaul]

DC Dimming offered as an accessibility option would be great. I don’t mind artefacts and display quality being worse. It’s better then the phone being completely unusable in its current form for me as it is a health hazard. Btw the iPhone 11 is amazing. No flicker and my eyes feel so relaxed.

 

[Mr.Simple]

I really hope that apple will make something different about PWM with the new iphone pro max this year. I have tried the S21 Ultra with the 120 HZ LTPO Display and it not works for me. After 10-15 min i get eye strain and headaches are not far away. And the rumors say that apple will also use a LTPO Display from Samsung Display on the Pro Model.

Last year i have tested the oneplus 8 pro with dc dimming. Without dc dimming i can't look at the display for 5 mins to get eye strain. With dc dimming it goes better, but after 15-20 min i again feel eye strain. Maybe the dc dimming on xiaomi is better but i have not tested it. On Android side i currently use the Mi 10T Pro with a LCD Display. It has also PWM but the frequency is high so that it works good for me.

I would really like to switch form the iphone 11 to Pro Max 12. But after my experience with the 11 Pro Max i have no hope. Apple should make a iphone with a 6,4+ inch great and PWM free LCD Display with higher pixel density for a crisper screen when they can't solve the problem with PWM on the OLED iPhones.

 

[QuattroRS6]

I really hope that apple will make something different about PWM with the new iphone pro max this year. I have tried the S21 Ultra with the 120 HZ LTPO Display and it not works for me. After 10-15 min i get eye strain and headaches are not far away. And the rumors say that apple will also use a LTPO Display from Samsung Display on the Pro Model.

After dizziness Problems and nausea with the 12 Pro, the 120 Hz LTPO Panel in the Future was my hope in the last days, because i read often that the Apple Watch has a LTPO Display and many People who are sensitive to PWM wrote they have no Problems.

But i remember a thread in the Samsung Forums, where many people wrote about PWM Problems with the older S20, so it seems Samsung is the Problem. I also read often, that People had Problems with the 12 Pro and Pro Max, but not with the normal 12 with LG Panel. When i now read, that Samsung delivers exclusive the Parts for the new iPhone...

 

[kargurin]

I should have problems with the Note 10+ but I don't. This weekend I'll take a look at the LG V60 thin Q. Gets good reviews and I imagine LG makes the panels. PPI is a bit low compared to the S21 ultra.

 

[Mr.Simple]

After dizziness Problems and nausea with the 12 Pro, the 120 Hz LTPO Panel in the Future was my hope in the last days, because i read often that the Apple Watch has a LTPO Display and many People who are sensitive to PWM wrote they have no Problems.

But i remember a thread in the Samsung Forums, where many people wrote about PWM Problems with the older S20, so it seems Samsung is the Problem. I also read often, that People had Problems with the 12 Pro and Pro Max, but not with the normal 12 with LG Panel. When i now read, that Samsung delivers exclusive the Parts for the new iPhone...

Notebookcheck hast tested the S21 ultra and the PWM frequency is again low on 250 Hz. I really hope that Apple will something different with the PWM control so that it will not bother me on the new pro max. It is interesting that some people have not problem with the iphone 12 LG display. But Samsung also supplies Display for the 12, so its a lottery and maybe it will also with the LG Display not work for me. I can't imagin that it makes such a difference between the LG and Samsung Panel.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Notebookcheck hast tested the S21 ultra and the PWM frequency is again low on 250 Hz. I really hope that Apple will something different with the PWM control so that it will not bother me on the new pro max. It is interesting that some people have not problem with the iphone 12 LG display. But Samsung also supplies Display for the 12, so its a lottery and maybe it will also with the LG Display not work for me. I can't imagin that it makes such a difference between the LG and Samsung Panel.

The 12s or "13" series will still have PWM with low rates because it is a slight spec increase year only and Samsung will still be supplying the displays. The only change will come when Apple moves away from OLED.....

 

[kargurin]

Very useful resource. Odd that I have no problems with the Note but problems with the s21 and they both have the same 250 Hz PWM. I see the OnePlus 8 operates higher. Wondering if my issues have to do with something other than PWM.

 

[Omega Mac]

So were crt tv’s and computer monitors just as bad for a minority of people like pwm is now?

I could always see the flicker or know if the screen was at a very low refresh rate. Most other people couldn't and especially if you stood further away or let the monitor rest in the area of your peripheral vision, then the refresh rate would reveal itself. This is something I noticed in a large open plan areas in the 90's with lots of CRT's about the place pointing in different directions.

There is an interplay between your hardware (eyes) firmware (brain), most of our vision relies on the processing done in the noodle, and some of us have different levels of visual acuity/tuning (firmware).

I would often go over to people and show them how to increase the Hz on their monitor, they'd be mostly clueless but they would be thankful in the end now they could see the light as such!

Another way to see it was to hum, or cause you skull to vibrate in some manner (put a plastic ruler in your teeth and clench, then blend/release and as it springs, that energy transfer into your skull does the trick, the screen would wobble and become liquid like in your field of vision, think bored in high-school - this was only used with CRT's monitors LCD solved this issue).

I think what happens here is you brian has to cancel out that major new skull vibration as much as possible to keep you vision stable and it can only do one frequency as such at a time.

I'm glad I read about PWN on these forums. It could have be a very expensive mistake.

Might be time to move over to E-Ink screens and devices as a way to reduce fatigue over the long term. Roll on reading by candle light!

 

[Omega Mac]

If the display still has pwm without a significant bump in frequency it’s a hard stop for me.

I love the SE but my eyes are gettting worse. XR is nice but huge. It seems to come down to that decision. At least they both come in 128GB and I’m left with an economical choice.

Hey, wondering if you might kindly clarify.

Do you mean your eyes are getting worse from age or the continued use of a specific iPhone (SE)?

 

[Omega Mac]

I joined this site because for three months after a stretch of working I have been getting so terribly nauseaous that it's debilitating to the point that all I can do is lay down until it goes away after 30 minutes to an hour.

I began to notice it literally happens like clockwork after I finish working and get up from my iMac. I stopped using the imac and the nausea stopped.

I don't know how serious this is for you guys, but it's completely debilitating for me to the point that I want to cry because this is my work computer and it really has affected my productivity. I don't know what to do because people have told me that they buy completely new max's, macbooks and it still happens to them.

For me it seems to have gotten considerably worst after I upgraded to big sur. And there's like no setting for the display on the imac anymore. It's just icons big or large.

My imac also is by far the lowest Hz in my house. My phone is 120, laptop is 144 etc.

I really don't know what to do because I can't afford a new computer right now in this pandemic and my imac is my lifeline for work. But I'm so tired of feeling sick everyday.

Im glad I found this placed, teary eyed, because some people are skeptical of what I'm saying and how bad it is.

I did have Lasik eye surgery years ago so I don't know if it affects it more, but it is so so bad for me.

I had this issue with a 2008 mac, what I did was removed the top clear protector screen cover (magnet hold it on so you simply pull off with suction cups or use gaffa tape), it rested maybe 4-6mm or more away from the actual LCD screen, I still have it and will check the depth.

I figured due to it's being reflect it created a second layer that my brian became really tired and worn out from trying to focus on as well as the LCD, so the subtle attempt to focus on actual screen and a surface approx 4mm above it caused real, I think user reported the same here or elsewhere online that is where I got the idea of removing the plastic top cover... and I think some nausea.

Not sure if it applies to you but once I removed it it made a HUGE difference.

Perhaps even moving your iMac so there is no window/light source behind you to reduce the amount of potentially strong light causing more vivid reflections. It started for me when I usedit in an office thathad 3 big windows, in two directions. So controlling the light and reflections was key here.

Most comfortable screens I have used, and still have access to are the MacBook pro 15' 2009 with anti-glare screen, and also Cinema Display (2008 Mac Pro) which also appears to have great anti-glare finish.

These are by far the most restful screens for my eyes.

Apples anti-glare of that period is excellent.

 

[MacBH928]

I don't know what pwm is but I was told OLED was the great screen technology. Side by side, my mini colours are yellow and the LCD looks better. They said OLED gives real dark blacks, it does, but the difference hardly matters in this case. You really do have to pay attention to it.

As of now I choose the LCD.

 

[mkoai]

I had this issue with a 2008 mac, what I did was removed the top clear protector screen cover (magnet hold it on so you simply pull off with suction cups or use gaffa tape), it rested maybe 4-6mm or more away from the actual LCD screen, I still have it and will check the depth.

I figured due to it's being reflect it created a second layer that my brian became really tired and worn out from trying to focus on as well as the LCD, so the subtle attempt to focus on actual screen and a surface approx 4mm above it caused real, I think user reported the same here or elsewhere online that is where I got the idea of removing the plastic top cover... and I think some nausea.

Not sure if it applies to you but once I removed it it made a HUGE difference.

Perhaps even moving your iMac so there is no window/light source behind you to reduce the amount of potentially strong light causing more vivid reflections. It started for me when I usedit in an office thathad 3 big windows, in two directions. So controlling the light and reflections was key here.

Most comfortable screens I have used, and still have access to are the MacBook pro 15' 2009 with anti-glare screen, and also Cinema Display (2008 Mac Pro) which also appears to have great anti-glare finish.

These are by far the most restful screens for my eyes.

Apples anti-glare of that period is excellent.

That very well may be related because in front of my desk are massive sky lights.

But it also was happening if I sat there at night so I'm not fully sure.

 

[Omega Mac]

That very well may be related because in front of my desk are massive sky lights.

But it also was happening if I sat there at night so I'm not fully sure.

Of very much so, you get 300% more light coming through a skylight than you do a window and then on an overcast day, light or brightness (and more glaring) because light is diffused and for ot forcing at you and everything form many directions, as opposed to sunny day = direct light.

Bt the time night comes on you may be too far gone, nausea take time to go. It's not like you can flick a switch turn it on or off I find! I actually also used sun glasses too for a period. This helped weirdly enough. Not sure if they were polarising, probably wound't not have seen the screen properly.

What model of iMac is it so we an asses the screen setup?

 

[mkoai]

Of very much so, you get 300% more light coming through a skylight than you do a window and then on an overcast day, light or brightness (and more glaring) because light is diffused and for ot forcing at you and everything form many directions, as opposed to sunny day = direct light.

Bt the time night comes on you may be too far gone, nausea take time to go. It's not like you can flick a switch turn it on or off I find! I actually also used sun glasses too for a period. This helped weirdly enough. Not sure if they were polarising, probably wound't not have seen the screen properly.

What model of iMac is it so we an asses the screen setup?

I bought it from apple in 2019. So I guess it's 2017.

But literally as of the most recent Bug Sur update it hasn't happened for me.

 

[Omega Mac]

Ok, so it's probably not possible to remove the top see-thru reflective surface on the later thinner iMac models.

You can identify which model you have maybe on ifixit.com to give you an idea what is possible.

iMac 27" 2017 Display Replacement

Removing the display on the iMac Intel 27" Retina 5K Display requires cutting adhesive with a specialized iMac opening tool. After you've completed...

www.ifixit.com

Other options are to mitigate the light int he office/enviroment.

You could build also a cardboard Hood to stop light hitting the screen from left/top/right and see if its reduce the overall instance of reflection on the surface and then see how it goes fo you, before spending money.

Hood example - https://www.photodon.com/p/102-IM21-2012.html

You could try find a high quality anti-glare treatment or adhesion layer. There may be a few thread here to that affect.

A humours solution https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/imac-with-a-monitor-hood.1321999/

 

[mkoai]

Ok, so it's probably not possible to remove the top see-thru reflective surface on the later thinner iMac models.

You can identify which model you have maybe on ifixit.com to give you an idea what is possible.

iMac 27" 2017 Display Replacement

Removing the display on the iMac Intel 27" Retina 5K Display requires cutting adhesive with a specialized iMac opening tool. After you've completed...

www.ifixit.com

Other options are to mitigate the light int he office/enviroment.

You could build also a cardboard Hood to stop light hitting the screen from left/top/right and see if its reduce the overall instance of reflection on the surface and then see how it goes fo you, before spending money.

Hood example - https://www.photodon.com/p/102-IM21-2012.html

You could try find a high quality anti-glare treatment or adhesion layer. There may be a few thread here to that affect.

A humours solution https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/imac-with-a-monitor-hood.1321999/

This actually makes a lot of sense. Will get the hood!

Thanks so much !