I don’t know of one oled phone that doesn’t have some form of pwm. It’s cheap to make, and the amount of people who suffer is so low that the manufacturer doesn’t care. It’s smart business.
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Other This is why I will not buy iPhone 12: OLED = PWM
- Thread starter lillo9546
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Genuine question. When I have had issues with OLED iPhones I experienced varying degrees of mild headaches. Sometimes it felt behind the eyes, other times back of the head.
I see a lot of members use the term migraines. Are you guys experiencing closer to what I did? Or are you talking full-blown migraines (nausea, need to turn off the lights, almost
debilitating)?
I see a lot of members use the term migraines. Are you guys experiencing closer to what I did? Or are you talking full-blown migraines (nausea, need to turn off the lights, almost
debilitating)?
Yes migraines are often used casually. There are many types of headaches and with migraines the symptoms include nausea/vomiting, pain on one side of head, sensitivity to light among other things.
Mainly a throbbing behind the eye that can range from mild to severe. Also quite constant for me as it can literally occur a hundred times in the course of a minute.
I had what felt like caffeine headaches or tension headaches on the back of my skull, and sometimes the sides of my head. And it was really hard to follow text when I scrolled
Thanks all for the replies. It sounds like what I experienced was similar to you. Nothing I would classify as a true migraine, but enough to make me not want to use the phones any longer.
To be honest, I don’t even “miss” having a new phone. But I am worried that eventually this 8+ will be literally obsolete. My options are limited which is very annoying
If it i truly 10% of most users. How is there not a class action lawsuit in the US already?
I’ve finally upgraded from the 6s to a used iPhone 8 to head off PWN issues and enjoy longer support get better lowlight performance.
The more I read this thread. The more I remember when I looked at the XR & 11 when I had a chance in store. I can’t remember if I knew about thr PWN issue.
I didn’t spent more than 10 mins looking at both but I remember thinking there was something bugging me about the 11 screens and being draw back to the XR.
I initially thought it was the high res and smaller finer rendered text.
However it may have been the PWN and I just didn’t have long enough to discover worse effects.
I remembered being puzzled why I felt the XR was better to look at screen. I had people tell me the OLED was superior because of the blacks etc etc on this forum.
This is a hugely serious issue, especially if you are not aware and are sensitive. Someone posted about falling down a stairs they got PWN induced vertigo by all accounts. This could actually kill you.
Epileptic fits can be triggered by flicker/strobe lights which can also kills. It’s not a trivial matter.
Remember Pokémon TV cartoon controversy?
Also generally migraines can be highly debilitating. They can knock you out for the day.
Has Apple ever acknowledged this problem?
I’ve finally upgraded from the 6s to a used iPhone 8 to head off PWN issues and enjoy longer support get better lowlight performance.
The more I read this thread. The more I remember when I looked at the XR & 11 when I had a chance in store. I can’t remember if I knew about thr PWN issue.
I didn’t spent more than 10 mins looking at both but I remember thinking there was something bugging me about the 11 screens and being draw back to the XR.
I initially thought it was the high res and smaller finer rendered text.
However it may have been the PWN and I just didn’t have long enough to discover worse effects.
I remembered being puzzled why I felt the XR was better to look at screen. I had people tell me the OLED was superior because of the blacks etc etc on this forum.
This is a hugely serious issue, especially if you are not aware and are sensitive. Someone posted about falling down a stairs they got PWN induced vertigo by all accounts. This could actually kill you.
Epileptic fits can be triggered by flicker/strobe lights which can also kills. It’s not a trivial matter.
Remember Pokémon TV cartoon controversy?
Also generally migraines can be highly debilitating. They can knock you out for the day.
Has Apple ever acknowledged this problem?
Pwm is implemented because it’s the cheapest way for screen manufacturers to control brightness. The number of people who suffer from pwm is most likely in the single digits. I know a ton of people who are into phones in real life, and I’ve never met someone who suffers from pwm like I do. There is nothing inherently “wrong” with pwm. It’s performing as it’s supposed to. In order to control brightness on an oled screen without pwm, it would cost more money. They are maximizing profits right now, and that’s smart business sense. I’m sure one day pwm will not be around, but it will only be because they found a cheap way to replace it, not because they feel bad about pwm or anything having to do with us consumers.
I was all hopeful on micro led, but I don’t know if that technology will also require pwm to cheaply control brightness or not. I believe we’re most likely years away.
I was all hopeful on micro led, but I don’t know if that technology will also require pwm to cheaply control brightness or not. I believe we’re most likely years away.
What is odd is that they could have chosen to use PWM on their LCD displays to save cost, yet for ten generations (along with the XR and 11) they hadn’t.
I assume a brightness controller that eliminates PWM on OLED is probably more expensive than on LCD. Yet these are premium devices that cost upwards of $1000, so there’s got to be more to it for them not to consider using it even if it were only in a Max model. Or if it’s that much of a cost consideration if they introduced a new Ultra-tier device for $1200 and implemented it on that first.
I don’t mind 1080p lcd. The bezels bother me way more than the lack of oled blacks or resolution.
I switched back from my 12 pro to 11 pro. And I must say. I haven’t felt sick in a month! It’s amazing. Now I just have to decide what phone to get as I just broke my 11 pro for the second time in a month lol. ?♂️
It could be a lawsuit was tried and threw out of court. I agree that in the US with the ease of being able to file a lawsuit, someone would have already tried...maybe as said it was already thrown out of court.
I'm not even sure it's possible for a manufacturer to design a product that takes into account 100% of every customers sensitivities and conditions and still be able to sell said product at an affordable cost in a form factor that looks like a premium model.
If there only was a place where computers could connect to in order to share knowledge!
Pulse-width modulation - Wikipedia
Good grief. Yes lets have another class action lawsuit instead of doing something smart like changing phones. Wow.
I just thought I would add to the conversation with my experience so far, having used many iPhone's in the past (most recently an XR) being a casual gamer (PS4 + LCD monitor), and using a MBP 2015 for work I am usually running several hours of screen time a day.
Had been using the XR on a very heavy basis during UK lockdown, and yes I used to get headaches and eye soreness but only after several hours of screen time - this is fine in a way as it is way because then I really know it is time to put the phone down and give myself a break.
Two weeks ago I upgraded to the 12. The first few days seemed fine, then not too long after the back of my eyeballs started to feel really strained, my temples and front part of my head would ache bad. It hurt when I moved my head moving my eyes also was a strain. I took a few days off work because of this. At the time I put it down to something else; stress, poor diet, bad sleeping pattern, being inside a lot without enough natural daylight..
I remember having similar issues when I trialled the X a couple years back, but I didn't do my research on the 12 and just forgot about the PWM issue when pumping for a new handset.
Yesterday I was using my phone a fair bit and the headache came on really quickly, and now it is getting to the point where using it for not even 15 minutes aggravates the condition. My headaches also last for hours, are not really helped by painkillers, and at times actually make me feel nauseous.
Currently I am talking to Apple support chat, and they recommend returning the phone for a technician to look over. However I feel like they will just try to replace the screen, when in actual fact this seems like a software issue with the PWM / flicker rate being so low.
Unfortunately I returned my XR as part of the trade, but it looks like I will have to return the 12 as my 2 week return period is over in a day, and then take a punt with the 11, as that has an LCD screen. It is a shame, as the 12 is a really good phone, but, health > new shiny phone.
Has anyone who suffers from the strain on a regular 12 gone from the XR to a 12 and then to an 11?
Had been using the XR on a very heavy basis during UK lockdown, and yes I used to get headaches and eye soreness but only after several hours of screen time - this is fine in a way as it is way because then I really know it is time to put the phone down and give myself a break.
Two weeks ago I upgraded to the 12. The first few days seemed fine, then not too long after the back of my eyeballs started to feel really strained, my temples and front part of my head would ache bad. It hurt when I moved my head moving my eyes also was a strain. I took a few days off work because of this. At the time I put it down to something else; stress, poor diet, bad sleeping pattern, being inside a lot without enough natural daylight..
I remember having similar issues when I trialled the X a couple years back, but I didn't do my research on the 12 and just forgot about the PWM issue when pumping for a new handset.
Yesterday I was using my phone a fair bit and the headache came on really quickly, and now it is getting to the point where using it for not even 15 minutes aggravates the condition. My headaches also last for hours, are not really helped by painkillers, and at times actually make me feel nauseous.
Currently I am talking to Apple support chat, and they recommend returning the phone for a technician to look over. However I feel like they will just try to replace the screen, when in actual fact this seems like a software issue with the PWM / flicker rate being so low.
Unfortunately I returned my XR as part of the trade, but it looks like I will have to return the 12 as my 2 week return period is over in a day, and then take a punt with the 11, as that has an LCD screen. It is a shame, as the 12 is a really good phone, but, health > new shiny phone.
Has anyone who suffers from the strain on a regular 12 gone from the XR to a 12 and then to an 11?
Not quite XR/11 to 12 but I've had issues with OLED before so I chose to keep my SE 2020 as backup/insurance when I bought the 12 mini. That was a good choice since I start getting headaches within 30 minutes of onscreen time on the 12 mini. I really hope this gets fixed in future.
Hey everyone,
Today while tried to make decision of iPhone 12 size I thankfully to that thread found PWM issue and I’m pretty shocked that this technology passed through. I think it’s matter of time people will understand that even if majority don’t see it in regular use - eyes and brain are having tension. I, happily, never used and even seen any OLED phone in real life, and the only OLED display I have seen and used and tested today on PWM flickering is Touch Bar. Now I know why I’ve disliked it long prior to acquiring one - this thing flashed all the time while I’ve used Mac LCD display with PWM on 100% brightness almost all the time, maybe intuitively disabling display flickering (even though it’s 131kHz - I believe it still impacts one‘s brain and mind). After that I’ve found that Face ID I’ve never used is invisible laser dots flashing right into one’s eyes. How did we come to the point of such self destruction? I am really questioning if people who feed us such technologies are really adequate? I totally understand that Apple is not the one to blame directly since it’s not them who made PWM widely accepted and used in displays but indirectly for sure it is for supporting that harming trend and not finding better solutions and raising issue on higher level. I will see iPhone 12 this week and even though I’m sure I won’t have same reaction to PWM as many shared here I’m not buying it for the health of eyes and brain.
I‘m now considering phone without PWM flickering and I’ve found people are having same issue with iPhone 11 and XR while not having it with iPhone 8. First I though it is only OLED has PWM then I found it in MacBook’s and in latest iPad Pro’s with LCD. I didn’t find PWM in iPhone 11 and XR LCD’s so I question what is the reason people are having issues with it same to OLED with PWM?
Today while tried to make decision of iPhone 12 size I thankfully to that thread found PWM issue and I’m pretty shocked that this technology passed through. I think it’s matter of time people will understand that even if majority don’t see it in regular use - eyes and brain are having tension. I, happily, never used and even seen any OLED phone in real life, and the only OLED display I have seen and used and tested today on PWM flickering is Touch Bar. Now I know why I’ve disliked it long prior to acquiring one - this thing flashed all the time while I’ve used Mac LCD display with PWM on 100% brightness almost all the time, maybe intuitively disabling display flickering (even though it’s 131kHz - I believe it still impacts one‘s brain and mind). After that I’ve found that Face ID I’ve never used is invisible laser dots flashing right into one’s eyes. How did we come to the point of such self destruction? I am really questioning if people who feed us such technologies are really adequate? I totally understand that Apple is not the one to blame directly since it’s not them who made PWM widely accepted and used in displays but indirectly for sure it is for supporting that harming trend and not finding better solutions and raising issue on higher level. I will see iPhone 12 this week and even though I’m sure I won’t have same reaction to PWM as many shared here I’m not buying it for the health of eyes and brain.
I‘m now considering phone without PWM flickering and I’ve found people are having same issue with iPhone 11 and XR while not having it with iPhone 8. First I though it is only OLED has PWM then I found it in MacBook’s and in latest iPad Pro’s with LCD. I didn’t find PWM in iPhone 11 and XR LCD’s so I question what is the reason people are having issues with it same to OLED with PWM?
Check here: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...s-and-or-nausea-with-iphone-11.2209358/page-6
Temporal dithering (FRC – Frame Rate Control)
FRC (Frame Rate Control) or temporal dithering, as explored by Lagom, describes rapid alternation between a very slightly lighter and very slightly darker variant of a given shade. This is done where the shade itself can’t be displayed, for example if the monitor does not have the necessary bit-depth to display that shade. The GPU may also add its own dithering stage, so even if a monitor is free from dithering (e.g. ‘true 8-bit’ rather than 6-bit + 2-bit FRC) there may be some dithering visible. It is therefore very difficult to achieve a viewing experience entirely free from dithering, but it’s certainly minimised if the monitor itself doesn’t use dithering. This can be thought of as a form of flickering, although it is very different to the flickering you get from PWM whereby there are extreme brightness changes of the entire backlight. This is a minute luminance change that affects certain shades, so most users will not find this problematic even if they are sensitive to PWM usage. Some users still take issue with dithering usage and prefer that it is taken out of the equation, or at least minimised.
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I want to change my 12 Pro Max but I don't know if Iphone 11 (LCD) or SE 2020 would have this effect on my eyes too. Some people are sensitive to "FRC" and I think newer LCD Iphones after Iphone 8 do this.
Temporal dithering : rapid alternation between a very slightly lighter and very slightly darker variant of a given shade. This is done where the shade itself can’t be displayed, for example if the monitor does not have the necessary bit-depth to display that shade. The GPU may also add its own dithering stage, so even if a monitor is free from dithering (e.g. ‘true 8-bit’ rather than 6-bit + 2-bit FRC) there may be some dithering visible.
It is therefore very difficult to achieve a viewing experience entirely free from dithering, but it’s certainly minimised if the monitor itself doesn’t use dithering. This can be thought of as a form of flickering, although it is very different to the flickering you get from PWM whereby there are extreme brightness changes of the entire backlight. This is a minute luminance change that affects certain shades, so most users will not find this problematic even if they are sensitive to PWM usage. Some users still take issue with dithering usage and prefer that it is taken out of the equation, or at least minimised.