Tablets Thoughts on the Nexus 7 - My experience so far...

[ntrigue]

I really just need a Kindle/Instapaper device larger than iPhone. Will Nexus 7 beat iPad?

 

[batting1000]

Finally a sane person on here who's not caught up in the endless personal attacks and general BS from the same old clan.

Why thank you, sir.

 

[freudling]

It's interesting that you dismiss my argument at baseless despite your inability to pin down a coherent reason for phones and tablets to be considered "the same."

You're not doing anything here other than labeling a box with a vague term ("multi-touch devices," "mobile-slate devices") and indiscriminately tossing disparate devices into it without regard for their nuances. The disregard for these details is quite odd considering the painstaking attention to detail you've displayed in previous posts.

It's not hard to find incredibly broad similarities in different things and make a list of them. Anyone can do it. Look!

"Wheeled transportation devices" perfectly illustrates motorcycles, cars and even big rigs. They are all:

1. Multi-wheel.
2. All transportation.
3. All using the same technology scaled for the vehicle (internal combustion engine).
4. All using virtually identical fuel.

Do you see how absurd this is? You are highly specific about what makes a "tweener" but highly vague about what a tablet even is in the first place. You can't have it both ways. If you are incapable of pinning down exactly how phones and tablets are "one and the same" (beyond a list of hilariously obvious similarities that conveniently ignore equally obvious differences), you have no business defining a "tweener."

You are wrong, wrong, wrong.

iPods, iPhones, and iPads are part of the same category: they are mobile-slate devices that are multi-touch in their input and run an operating system called iOS.

Macs and laptops by Apple are in a separate category but different than above: they are point and click devices that run OS X.

All are part of a larger category called "computers". The similarities between the devices in each category is striking. Same operating system. Virtually identical hardware. Identical input methods. But the differences between the two categories is equally telling: mobile-slate devices run a different operating system than Apple's Macs and laptops, as well as different hardware.

There is no argument. Move along. But keep posting and getting blue in the face.

 

[Night Spring]

And that suck it has nothing to do with you. It's between me and another poster who constantly trolls and engages in personal attacks. He deserves what he gets.

If that "suck it" has nothing to do with us, why do we all have to see it every time you post that link? Please find a way to keep it between yourself and the other poster and leave the rest of us out of it. I'm sure I won't be the only one to appreciate such courtesy.

I understand the analogy you're making but I think it's a little bit flawed. A developer needs to be able to see and understand both perspectives in order to execute their job successfully.

You cannot develop apps in the vacuum of your own ideology, divorced from the realities of the different ways people use different devices.

Sure, a developer needs to take note of differences between different sized multi-touch devices, and a biologist could probably tell you many points of distinction between wolves and dogs that the general public doesn't know. But don't try to tell a biologist that wolves and dogs are fundamentally different, because he would never agree with you. And that's what you came off as doing before -- you (or perhaps it was another poster arguing along similar lines -- I'm starting to lose track of who said what, sorry) -- anyway, somebody was insisting that smartphones and tablets are VERY different from each other, in a way that could be interpreted as they don't belong in the same category. But they obviously do share many features, both hardware and software, so in that sense, they do belong in the same category.

 

[TheMacBookPro]

No, they are not FAR MORE usable on a Nexus 7. That statement is baseless and has ZERO support. My posts clearly show in those pictures that the full blown Websites LOOK BETTER on the iPhone. Therefore, it is NOT the case that the Nexus is far more usable. Period.

Clearly show? No, that's completely subjective. My opinion is that the tiny text on the iPhone, while clear, is far too small to be usable. Obviously, your opinion is different, but that doesn't make your opinion a fact. Capitalization of random words is unnecessary, that's what bolding and italics are for.

And he did lie. He said he owns a Nexus and was challenged to post pictures. Hi ignored only that part of my posts: everything else he responds to... and he engages in personal attacks. His silence on posting pictures of his Nexus 7 speaks volumes of him. Of someone that argues on the Internet with people just for the sake of it. And that suck it has nothing to do with you. It's between me and another poster who constantly trolls and engages in personal attacks. He deserves what he gets.

It has something to do with me if I read it. If it's just between you and another poster then use the Private Messaging feature.

 

[freudling]

If that "suck it" has nothing to do with us, why do we all have to see it every time you post that link? Please find a way to keep it between yourself and the other poster and leave the rest of us out of it. I'm sure I won't be the only one to appreciate such courtesy.

There are 10 photos in there. Ignore the text and look at the screens. You're welcome for being one of the only objective posters on here who takes the time to post this stuff and do real usability testing, not just a person waving his arms who doesn't own the device.

Sure, a developer needs to take note of differences between different sized multi-touch devices, and a biologist could probably tell you many points of distinction between wolves and dogs that the general public doesn't know. But don't try to tell a biologist that wolves and dogs are fundamentally different, because he would never agree with you. And that's what you came off as doing before -- you (or perhaps it was another poster arguing along similar lines -- I'm starting to lose track of who said what, sorry) -- anyway, somebody was insisting that smartphones and tablets are VERY different from each other, in a way that could be interpreted as they don't belong in the same category. But they obviously do share many features, both hardware and software, so in that sense, they do belong in the same category.

Yes, they belong in the same category. The only effective difference between them is that the smartphone is much smaller but uses the exact same technology and software. Some people just call things like the iPad a giant iPod Touch... or you could call it a giant iPhone... but it would be silly to call it a phone because you wouldn't want to use it as a phone because it's too big. This is where the smaller size of a smartphone comes in. But other than a different way of using it because it's small, they're effectively the exact same devices.

 

[NovaRev]

You are wrong, wrong, wrong.

iPods, iPhones, and iPads are part of the same category: they are mobile-slate devices that are multi-touch in their input and run an operating system called iOS.

Macs and laptops by Apple are in a separate category but different than above: they are point and click devices that run OS X.

All are part of a larger category called "computers". The similarities between the devices in each category is striking. Same operating system. Virtually identical hardware. Identical input methods. But the differences between the two categories is equally telling: mobile-slate devices run a different operating system than Apple's Macs and laptops, as well as different hardware.

There is no argument. Move along. But keep posting and getting blue in the face.

I agree that there is no argument, because you've proven incapable of presenting one. You commit the logical fallacy of generalization. By:

1) Repeatedly pointing out the most bluntly obvious similarities (a task even a child could accomplish)
2) Blithely ignoring equally obvious differences
3) Concluding that this flawed approach is logically sound
4) Declaring yourself "right" and everyone else "wrong"

You demonstrate that you do not actually have a legitimate argument. I do not believe for a second that you are a software developer, or even work with one.

Enjoy your iPad.

 

[freudling]

Clearly show? No, that's completely subjective. My opinion is that the tiny text on the iPhone, while clear, is far too small to be usable. Obviously, your opinion is different, but that doesn't make your opinion a fact. Capitalization of random words is unnecessary, that's what bolding and italics are for.



It has something to do with me if I read it. If it's just between you and another poster then use the Private Messaging feature.

It is an objective FACT that the full blown Websites look better on the iPhone. The text is more clear and in some cases, text is rendered even BIGGER on the iPhone. The photos, for instance, of the Macrumors site are irrefutable.

----------

I agree that there is no argument, because you've proven incapable of presenting one. You commit the logical fallacy of generalization. By:

1) Repeatedly pointing out the most bluntly obvious similarities (a task even a child could accomplish)
2) Blithely ignoring equally obvious differences
3) Concluding that this flawed approach is logically sound
4) Declaring yourself "right" and everyone else "wrong"

You demonstrate that you do not actually have a legitimate argument. I do not believe for a second that you are a software developer, or even work with one.

Enjoy your iPad.

You have not said anything, nothing in this post. Zero.

What are the differences between an iPad and an iPhone other than size?

"Uh.... uh... but.... uh..."

 

[Night Spring]

There are 10 photos in there. Ignore the text and look at the screens.

I have been ignoring the text, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to. Also, having followed the threads where you were having arguments with other posters, I had a pretty good sense that message was aimed at one or two specific people, but then you posted that link in so many other threads, I'm sure a lot of people saw that text and had no idea why they were being told to suck it, or that the message wasn't intended for them.

You're welcome for being one of the only objective posters on here who takes the time to post this stuff and do real usability testing, not just a person waving his arms who doesn't own the device.

I don't actually own any 7 inch tablet, so I haven't done any usability testing, nor did I ever say I did. I just happen to share your skepticism about the usability of tweener tablets, but I'm reserving judgement until I actually give one a try. On the other hand, I'm not interested enough to go out and buy a tweener just to give it a try, especially since I personally have no use fot that size. I do appreciate that many people here think they want one -- and I'm very interested in hearing from the people who do get one, how well a tweener meets or don't meet their expectations.

 

[freudling]

I have been ignoring the text, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to. Also, having followed the threads where you were having arguments with other posters, I had a pretty good sense that message was aimed at one or two specific people, but then you posted that link in so many other threads, I'm sure a lot of people saw that text and had no idea why they were being told to suck it, or that the message wasn't intended for them.




I don't actually own any 7 inch tablet, so I haven't done any usability testing, nor did I ever say I did. I just happen to share your skepticism about the usability of tweener tablets, but I'm reserving judgement until I actually give one a try. On the other hand, I'm not interested enough to go out and buy a tweener just to give it a try, especially since I personally have no use fot that size. I do appreciate that many people here think they want one -- and I'm very interested in hearing from the people who do get one, how well a tweener meets or don't meet their expectations.

Obviously I can't recommend you buy one, but you should test it yourself and decide.

 

[Night Spring]

It is an objective FACT that the full blown Websites look better on the iPhone.*The text is more clear and in some cases, text is rendered even BIGGER on the iPhone. The photos, for instance, of the Macrumors site are irrefutable.

"better" can't be a fact -- unless you are comparing test scores or something. Otherwise, it's a subjective judgement based on many factors, most of which are personal preferences.

"text is more clear" -- to your eyes. Other people might see differently, either because they have physically different eyes, or they might have different preferences. I mean, look at all the discussion over retina display. It's a fact that iPad 3 has double the resolution of the iPad 2. But some say the difference is like day and night, and some say they see no difference at all.

Obviously I can't recommend you buy one, but you should test it yourself and decide.

I might if Apple does come out with a tweener. Not really interested enough in that size to go through the hassle of fiddling with another OS in order to test it out. And then, there's the hassle of buying then returning the thing. I mean, I'm not overly frugal, but I also don't like buying and keeping products I don't use. There's an Apple store right by my office, so popping in and out to buy/return things to Apple is easy.

 

[TheMacBookPro]

It is an objective FACT that the full blown Websites look better on the iPhone. The text is more clear and in some cases, text is rendered even BIGGER on the iPhone. The photos, for instance, of the Macrumors site are irrefutable.

Are you getting a usability number generated by a calculation? Nope, it's just your opinion. My opinion differs from your opinion. Neither of our opinions are a fact.

You can repeat your opinion as much as you like, it's not going to make it a fact.

 

[freudling]

"better" can't be a fact -- unless you are comparing test scores or something. Otherwise, it's a subjective judgement based on many factors, most of which are personal preferences.

"text is more clear" -- to your eyes. Other people might see differently, either because they have physically different eyes, or they might have different preferences. I mean, look at all the discussion over retina display. It's a fact that iPad 3 has double the resolution of the iPad 2. But some say the difference is like day and night, and some say they see no difference at all.



I might if Apple does come out with a tweener. Not really interested enough in that size to go through the hassle of fiddling with another OS in order to test it out. And then, there's the hassle of buying then returning the thing. I mean, I'm not overly frugal, but I also don't like buying and keeping products I don't use. There's an Apple store right by my office, so popping in and out to buy/return things to Apple is easy.

It is a fact. The benchmark of vision is 20/20. Apple based it's material science and development of the Retina display on this benchmark. Retina screens are by a fact sharper and better for the general population than those that have lower ppi such that the eye can see individual pixels.

None of this is debatable.

 

[TheMacBookPro]

It is a fact. The benchmark of vision is 20/20. Apple based it's material science and development of the Retina display on this benchmark. Retina screens are by a fact sharper and better for the general population than those that have lower ppi such that the eye can see individual pixels.

None of this is debatable.

That's perfect, because that's what my vision is! Yet, oddly enough, my Nexus 7 is not grainy or pixelated or noticeably inferior to the Retina Displays I have. How very strange.

 

[Renzatic]

It is a fact. The benchmark of vision is 20/20. Apple based it's material science and development of the Retina display on this benchmark. Retina screens are by a fact sharper and better for the general population than those that have lower ppi such that the eye can see individual pixels.

None of this is debatable.

Nope. But the subjectiveness of what's what's grainy and horrible in comparison certainly is. Retina might be better, but the Nexus 7 isn't exactly "bad" when put next to it.

 

[freudling]

Are you getting a usability number generated by a calculation? Nope, it's just your opinion. My opinion differs from your opinion. Neither of our opinions are a fact.

You can repeat your opinion as much as you like, it's not going to make it a fact.

It is all a fact.

1. The Retina screen is SHARPER and CRISPER than the Nexus. This is a fact because the average human eye cannot discern individual pixels on a Retina like they can on the Sexus. The Sexus needs close to 300 ppi to qualify as a Retina screen.
2. Webpages have text rendered on the iPhone in essentially the same size as the Sexus. You gain virtually nothing but having a larger, heavier, bulkier device that doesn't allow 2 handed holding.

All of this is a fact.

 

[TheMacBookPro]

It is all a fact.

1. The Retina screen is SHARPER and CRISPER than the Nexus. This is a fact because the average human eye cannot discern individual pixels on a Retina like they can on the Sexus. The Sexus needs close to 300 ppi to qualify as a Retina screen.
2. Webpages have text rendered on the iPhone in essentially the same size as the Sexus. You gain virtually nothing but having a larger, heavier, bulkier device that doesn't allow 2 handed holding.

All of this is a fact.

Sexus? Sounds like you've gotten yourself a Chinese knockoff there.

Now, if your keyboard has the S and the N keys mixed up, that would explain why your post looks like it was formed by a failed comedian.

1. I cannot see individual pixels on my Nexus 7's display. I'd like to know what your visual acuity is, because it's evidently better than mine (20/20).

2. Yes, pages get rendered at the same size. Unfortunately, due to the smaller size of the iPhone's display, I am unable to read the text comfortably, so I have to zoom in, whereas on the Nexus 7 I can read it comfortably at a glance.

Now that's my opinion, just like yours. Repeat it as many times as you like, you're not getting a dirt bike for Christmas. It didn't work when we were kids and it doesn't work that way in the real world either.

 

[freudling]

That's perfect, because that's what my vision is! Yet, oddly enough, my Nexus 7 is not grainy or pixelated or noticeably inferior to the Retina Displays I have. How very strange.

Demonstrate it. Post video next to an iPad 3 showing the exact same sites.

----------

Sexus? Sounds like you've gotten yourself a Chinese knockoff there.

Now, if your keyboard has the S and the N keys mixed up, that would explain why your post looks like it was formed by a failed comedian.

1. I cannot see individual pixels on my Nexus 7's display. I'd like to know what your visual acuity is, because it's evidently better than mine (20/20).

2. Yes, pages get rendered at the same size. Unfortunately, due to the smaller size of the iPhone's display, I am unable to read the text comfortably, so I have to zoom in, whereas on the Nexus 7 I can read it comfortably at a glance.

Now that's my opinion, just like yours. Repeat it as many times as you like, you're not getting a dirt bike for Christmas. It didn't work when we were kids and it doesn't work that way in the real world either.

Demonstrate everything you have said: post videos of all of it. But you won't because they're false statements. My photos demonstrate why your comments are false. Not all Websites are rendered large on the iPhone, but no matter what the 326 ppi blow away the Nexus 7 screen.

http://s675.photobucket.com/albums/vv116/freudling/Suck It/

 

[Renzatic]

Demonstrate it. Post video next to an iPad 3 showing the exact same sites.

You do realize that taking pictures won't prove crap, right? Unless you're using a telephoto lens on an expensive high end DSLR zoomed in to near macro photography levels, an iPad 3 would look almost exactly like an iPad 2 from a single photo.

And a video? Hell, that's even worse. You wouldn't be able to tell any difference between the two after Youtube compresses the hell out of it.

 

[TheMacBookPro]

Demonstrate it. Post video next to an iPad 3 showing the exact same sites.

Certainly, master. What would you like your butler to show you?

Demonstrate everything you have said: post videos of all of it. But you won't because they're false statements. My photos demonstrate why your comments are false. Not all Websites are rendered large on the iPhone, but no matter what the 326 ppi blow away the Nexus 7 screen.

Once again with your ridiculous assumptions. I've already proven you to be a fool twice, it's safe to say that you'd be wrong again here.

What do you want a video for? Hell, what would a picture prove anyways? That I have a good camera?

I don't know if you realize it but your silly little album doesn't show the iPhone's screen being any clearer than the Nexus 7's. And before you say it's because I have a bad screen, I'm viewing the images on my Retina Display MacBook. Would Master like an image of that too?

 

[freudling]

Certainly, master. What would you like your butler to show you?



Once again with your ridiculous assumptions. I've already proven you to be a fool twice, it's safe to say that you'd be wrong again here.

What do you want a video for? Hell, what would a picture prove anyways? That I have a good camera?

I don't know if you realize it but your silly little album doesn't show the iPhone's screen being any clearer than the Nexus 7's. And before you say it's because I have a bad screen, I'm viewing the images on my Retina Display MacBook. Would Master like an image of that too?

I've already proven you to be a fool over and over. Anyone who doesn't believe a Retina display is sharper than pretty much anything out there and that people can recognize the difference is incredulous.

----------

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

 

[TheMacBookPro]

I've already proven you to be a fool over and over. Anyone who doesn't believe a Retina display is sharper than pretty much anything out there and that people can recognize the difference is incredulous.

----------

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

No, you haven't proven me to be anything. If anything, I've proven you to be fool by showing how you're completely wrong about me not actually owning a Nexus 7, amongst other things you were wrong about.

You should not use the word incredulous in that context- you should just say incredible. If you want to prove that you're good with words (even though you're evidently not), just say that you find it incredulous. The way you put it is akin to saying 'the people that say they can't recognize the difference is disbelieving'. Makes no sense, does it?

The average person evidently cannot discern individual pixels, as proven by myself and the reviewers. If it really was an issue, don't you think one of the reviews would have said it was a problem by now? Your issue is a one-off. Period. End of story.

 

[freudling]

No, you haven't proven me to be anything. If anything, I've proven you to be fool by showing how you're completely wrong about me not actually owning a Nexus 7, amongst other things you were wrong about.

You should not use the word incredulous in that context- you should just say incredible. If you want to prove that you're good with words (even though you're evidently not), just say that you find it incredulous. The way you put it is akin to saying 'the people that say they can't recognize the difference is disbelieving'. Makes no sense, does it?

The average person evidently cannot discern individual pixels, as proven by myself and the reviewers. If it really was an issue, don't you think one of the reviews would have said it was a problem by now? Your issue is a one-off. Period. End of story.

You have been proven wrong over and over, particularly by being schooled on UI design and all the mistakes and errors in your thinking.

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

 

[TheMacBookPro]

You have been proven wrong over and over, particularly by being schooled on UI design and all the mistakes and errors in your thinking.

Saying that you did does not mean you actually did. Please show me where you've proven me to be wrong, and I'll gladly show you where I proved you to be wrong.

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

Good job with the bolding. Learning Forums 101 now, are we? Next time, just bold the pertinent information, not the whole part. That renders the bolding irrelevant.

In my experience and other peoples' experience they cannot discern the individual pixels. It looks like you're reading into Apple's PR about the Retina Display too much.

 

[freudling]

Saying that you did does not mean you actually did. Please show me where you've proven me to be wrong, and I'll gladly show you where I proved you to be wrong.



Good job with the bolding. Learning Forums 101 now, are we? Next time, just bold the pertinent information, not the whole part. That renders the bolding irrelevant.

In my experience and other peoples' experience they cannot discern the individual pixels. It looks like you're reading into Apple's PR about the Retina Display too much.

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.