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JustinLim

macrumors newbie
Sep 26, 2022
7
8
Sharing some insights. I recently bought the Orico "USB 4" nvme ssd enclosure. It is an updated version with red pcb board. Put a 2tb 980 pro and combine with gelid ultimate thermal pad (15w/mk). Benchmarking on 14 m1 pro, it reach 2.7gb/s on both read and write without any throttling (even after 5 minutes).
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Screenshot 2022-09-28 at 10.44.20 AM Medium.jpeg
usb4 01 Medium.jpeg
usb4 02 Medium.jpeg
 
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ElectronGuru

macrumors 68000
Sep 5, 2013
1,656
490
Oregon, USA
Read the entire thread on my journey to understanding NVME enclosures. Thanks everyone for your contributions. Here's information I've found elsewhere that I didn't see here:
  1. reddit has a sub for sharing sale prices on various components. SSD posts get SSDBot comments that link to a google sheet, for easy comparisons among most makes/models.
  2. Jeyi makes a 4M2 competitor quad enclosure, also limited to 1 bus per drive (for raid 0). They also have an (older) compatibility chart
  3. Attached is a comparison between aliexpress and amazon prices for the same enclosure. ali's price included a coupon for spending over $180, making it easy to add a testing enclosure. In exchange of course, for waiting weeks instead of days.
  4. ineo is another brand to consider after they start adding USB4 support, particularly if you like aggressive cooling options
  5. there’s an assortment of older shorter (under 80mm) Nvme on eBay, often sold in lots. It would be cool finding a short (30-42mm) cheap enclosure that can give them new lives as fast thumb drives.
 

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Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,183
13,228
justinlim wrote:
I recently bought the Orico "USB 4" nvme ssd enclosure. It is an updated version with red pcb board. Put a 2tb 980 pro and combine with gelid ultimate thermal pad (15w/mk). Benchmarking on 14 m1 pro, it reach 2.7gb/s on both read and write without any throttling (even after 5 minutes).

Is this the one you're talking about?
 
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JustinLim

macrumors newbie
Sep 26, 2022
7
8
justinlim wrote:
I recently bought the Orico "USB 4" nvme ssd enclosure. It is an updated version with red pcb board. Put a 2tb 980 pro and combine with gelid ultimate thermal pad (15w/mk). Benchmarking on 14 m1 pro, it reach 2.7gb/s on both read and write without any throttling (even after 5 minutes).

Is this the one you're talking about?
it is same model number. But I’m unsure on US Amazon one is updated version or not. I bought directly from Orico in china on Asia shopping platform.
 
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Infavito

macrumors newbie
Oct 4, 2022
13
10
Hello! I'm using an SSD NVMe 1 Tb SSD (Samsung 970 evo plus) inside an Orico TOM2T3 portable storage based on an Intel® JHL6340 Thunderbolt™ 3 controller with a Macbook pro M1 (Monterey). I have noticed that the number of "Unsafe Shutdowns" in SMART DATA increases after each "safely disconnection" of that storage. But I'm sure the eject function is being used correctly. When I turn off my Macbook this does not happen. I wonder if anyone has noticed this? Any ideas?
I’ve just got another device by Acasis (TBU405) based on Intel JHL7440. And I have got the same result with it! Whether has no one noticed the same problem?!
 
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EncryptedUser

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2008
33
12
Hi there

I have several enclosures from Acasis model TBU401 with different drives in them. One with a WD750 and another stocked with a Kingston KC3000.
From my MBP M1 and Max mini M1 I’m using a mix of OWC, Orico and Acasis TB4 cables and I have not experienced any disconnects or strange appearance in logs so far.

What cables do you use?
Any TB3/4 hubs involved?
Hello! I'm using an SSD NVMe 1 Tb SSD (Samsung 970 evo plus) inside an Orico TOM2T3 portable storage based on an Intel® JHL6340 Thunderbolt™ 3 controller with a Macbook pro M1 (Monterey). I have noticed that the number of "Unsafe Shutdowns" in SMART DATA increases after each "safely disconnection" of that storage. But I'm sure the eject function is being used correctly. When I turn off my Macbook this does not happen. I wonder if anyone has noticed this? Any ideas?
I’ve just got another device by Acasis (TBU405) based on Intel JHL7440. And I have got the same result with it! Whether has no one noticed the same problem?!
 
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Infavito

macrumors newbie
Oct 4, 2022
13
10
Hi there

I have several enclosures from Acasis model TBU401 with different drives in them. One with a WD750 and another stocked with a Kingston KC3000.
From my MBP M1 and Max mini M1 I’m using a mix of OWC, Orico and Acasis TB4 cables and I have not experienced any disconnects or strange appearance in logs so far.

What cables do you use?
Any TB3/4 hubs involved?
Hello! Thank you for your reply) I use Thunderbold 3 cables that got with devices. And I plug them right into mac's thunderbolt ports. Did you use eject function when your computer was on? Did you check SMART DATA (It can be checked by DriveDx App or by app from www.smartmontools.org). Acasis's support supposes that the point could be in the SSD Samsung 970 evo plus, so I search for additional information here.
 

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Infavito

macrumors newbie
Oct 4, 2022
13
10
I changed previous SSD for extremely new Samsung 980 pro 2TB. And I've got the same result!
I did the test on another freshly installed MacOS (I have 2 MaсOS on internal SSD) then. And I got +1 “Unsafe Shutdown”! What's the hell?! Video
 

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Chramostejl

macrumors newbie
Oct 10, 2022
1
0
Hi guys,

I've recently bought a Shell Thunder TB3 SSD enclosure (mentioned in this thread before) and used the Kingston Fury Renegade (1TB) inside (maybe a bit of a overkill for the PCIe 3 enclosure, but works fine at 2,400 MB/s both, r/w, on a APFS formatted partition, slightly less on a NTFS-formatted one), I'm using it as the only TB3 drive/device connected to my mid2017 iMac 5k with BigSur. I've moved my Bootcamp partitions onto the drive (as booting Windows from the internal 2TB fusion drive was a real pain) and I'm using it with no issues, but one.

When trying to shutdown the system from Windows (either to turn the computer off or to reboot) the iMac freezes for some 20 seconds or so (after terminating the OS) and then hard-restarts. In macos, the "Your computer was restarted because of a problem" message appears then, with the CATERR report. It doesn't matter if the TB3 drive was the boot drive or it's just connected to the computer as an additional drive, the shutdown process always fails.

There's no problem with restarting/shutting down the system from macos (with the drive connected), the system works flawlessly as usual.

If there were problems restarting iMac from both OSs (I mean, the computer would always freeze on reboot regardless the OS the restart was initiated from), I'd say there must be a hardware problem with the TB3 enclosure (or the NVME SSD or the cable), but with this behavior, I just don't know.

If anyone met, and possibly successfully solved similar issue, any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

EncryptedUser

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2008
33
12
Hello! Thank you for your reply) I use Thunderbold 3 cables that got with devices. And I plug them right into mac's thunderbolt ports. Did you use eject function when your computer was on? Did you check SMART DATA (It can be checked by DriveDx App from ApStore or by app from www.smartmontools.org). Acasis's support supposes that the point could be in the SSD Samsung 970 evo plus, so I search for additional information here.
Here's my smart data from both my internal Apple Mac mini M1 nvme as well as Kingston KC3000 in a Acasis TBU401.
As you can see they booth have a few Unsafe Shutdowns.
Why - I have no idea. :)

Code:
=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Model Number:                       APPLE SSD AP0512Q

=== START OF SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART/Health Information (NVMe Log 0x02)
Critical Warning:                   0x00
Temperature:                        27 Celsius
Available Spare:                    100%
Available Spare Threshold:          99%
Percentage Used:                    0%
Data Units Read:                    7 043 380 [3,60 TB]
Data Units Written:                 5 743 567 [2,94 TB]
Host Read Commands:                 133 433 550
Host Write Commands:                64 473 279
Controller Busy Time:               0
Power Cycles:                       386
Power On Hours:                     55
Unsafe Shutdowns:                   9
Media and Data Integrity Errors:    0
Error Information Log Entries:      0

Code:
Acasis TBU401
=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Model Number:                       KINGSTON SKC3000S1024G

=== START OF SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART/Health Information (NVMe Log 0x02)
Critical Warning:                   0x00
Temperature:                        33 Celsius
Available Spare:                    100%
Available Spare Threshold:          10%
Percentage Used:                    0%
Data Units Read:                    26 768 [13,7 GB]
Data Units Written:                 94 953 [48,6 GB]
Host Read Commands:                 81 016
Host Write Commands:                56 350
Controller Busy Time:               0
Power Cycles:                       35
Power On Hours:                     608
Unsafe Shutdowns:                   8
Media and Data Integrity Errors:    0
Error Information Log Entries:      0
Warning  Comp. Temperature Time:    0
Critical Comp. Temperature Time:    0
Temperature Sensor 2:               42 Celsius
 

Infavito

macrumors newbie
Oct 4, 2022
13
10
I've just received a response from Acasis support. And they admit the problem! Here is what they write: "Sorry for making you wait. We carefully reviewed the videos and pictures you recorded, for this problem, our technical staff also tried very hard to make a lot of attempts, there is still no good solution, other products on the market are also the same, currently only after the shutdown will not be produced this situation , thank you for your support of our products, follow-up questions can contact us."
I hope they will find the way how to prevent these "Unsafe shutdowns".
 
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Infavito

macrumors newbie
Oct 4, 2022
13
10
I followed up with another email from Acasis. They write:
After confirming with our technical department, we would like to explain it more clearly.
When user ejects the ssd which is connected to Mac thouderbolt port, Mac Nvme driver does not remove thouderbolt device, which is not related with SSD or enclosure.
You can try to use Acasis enclosure with Windows computer, there won't be this issue. And as you say Orico thunderbolt enclosure also has the same issue.
So what we should do is to promote Apple Mac to update their Nvme driver.

Our technicist is trying to make an APP to remove the thouderbolt device safely. This is what we can do by now.
 

EncryptedUser

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2008
33
12

Our technicist is trying to make an APP to remove the thouderbolt device safely. This is what we can do by now.
Thank you for the update.
I’m a bit impressed by their tenacity to do something about a problem caused by someone else.

Let’s keep them crossed and hope they actually solve it for us!
 
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liudayu

macrumors member
Nov 4, 2014
61
50
Hello! I'm using an SSD NVMe 1 Tb SSD (Samsung 970 evo plus) inside an Orico TOM2T3 portable storage based on an Intel® JHL6340 Thunderbolt™ 3 controller with a Macbook pro M1 (Monterey). I have noticed that the number of "Unsafe Shutdowns" in SMART DATA increases after each "safely disconnection" of that storage. But I'm sure the eject function is being used correctly. When I turn off my Macbook this does not happen. I wonder if anyone has noticed this? Any ideas?
I’ve just got another device by Acasis (TBU405) based on Intel JHL7440. And I have got the same result with it! Whether has no one noticed the same problem?!

Hi, I have the same problem here. I have an Orico M208C3-U4 with 970 Evo Plus. Tried contact support they have no fix for this neither.
 

dcmaccam

macrumors 6502
Sep 14, 2017
272
47
West Coast of Scotland
Hi, I have the same problem here. I have an Orico M208C3-U4 with 970 Evo Plus. Tried contact support they have no fix for this neither.

A couple of things to try. Go into Disk utility and try un-mounting it from there and see if that still causes an unsafe shutdown. Also if you eject the drive, by right clicking on it and then eject it, wait 5 minutes before unplugging the drive in case it has not finished writing to the drive thus causing an unsafe shutdown. Let me know what you are using to see unsafe shutdowns and I will do a bit of checking.
 

liudayu

macrumors member
Nov 4, 2014
61
50
Go into Disk utility and try un-mounting it from there
Tried that, still Unsafe Shutdowns + 1.

The Thunderbolt 3/4 or USB 4 SSD enclosure's indicator LED does not turn off when you try any "eject / unmount" method unlike normal usb/usb-c external ssd/hard drives. Which matches what the Acasis company said:
When user ejects the ssd which is connected to Mac thouderbolt port, Mac Nvme driver does not remove thouderbolt device.
So when you unplug the SSD, it will cause an unsafe shutdowns as the SSD/Enclosure is still kinda powered on.
 
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Infavito

macrumors newbie
Oct 4, 2022
13
10
A couple of things to try. Go into Disk utility and try un-mounting it from there and see if that still causes an unsafe shutdown. Also if you eject the drive, by right clicking on it and then eject it, wait 5 minutes before unplugging the drive in case it has not finished writing to the drive thus causing an unsafe shutdown. Let me know what you are using to see unsafe shutdowns and I will do a bit of checking.
All of this does not work. I'm pretty sure this is the macOS issue. All we can do is leave reviews on the Apple's website to promote them to update Nvme driver.
 
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Mac-ra

macrumors member
Nov 18, 2022
42
15
I decided to jump into this rabbit hole of finding the best-performing & fastest for the money TB enclosure and M.2 NVMe SSD combo. I’ve skimmed (or more) through all of this thread, watched all of the Youtube videos, and picked over the enclosure & SSD specs/costs. Needless to say I’ve seen a lot of varying if not conflicting results that makes this approach to an external TB SSD seem like it’s anyone’s guess what you’ll get from a given combo. However, I intend to proceed and before I finally buy a combo or two to try the following conclusions seem to have floated to the top:
  1. TB Enclosures - the most-popular brands seem to be Acasis & Orico. They seem to both perform similarly despite the varying models each make (each with varying specs). They both also include the chance that they won’t connect or will have random disconnect problems (due to the cable? or something about the Mac being used?) or have surprisingly slow speeds even with a premium Gen 4 NVMe SSD (though I am not of course expecting much more than 2,500 MB/s overall given that TB is the weak link in the comm chain).
  2. SSD’s - the only SSD that consistently seems to show write speed tests of ~2,500 MB/s is the 980 Pro. Most others seem to be well under 2,000 MB/s including, surprisingly, the Black SN850, Crucial P5….
Thoughts before I pick a combo or two and run further down this rabbit hole? Has anyone seen >2,000-ish MB/s wrte speeds from more affordable SSD’s (vs. the 980 EVO) like the Black SN770 or Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus?
 
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Infavito

macrumors newbie
Oct 4, 2022
13
10
I decided to jump into this rabbit hole of finding the best-performing & fastest for the money TB enclosure and M.2 NVMe SSD combo. I’ve skimmed (or more) through all of this thread, watched all of the Youtube videos, and picked over the enclosure & SSD specs/costs. Needless to say I’ve seen a lot of varying if not conflicting results that makes this approach to an external TB SSD seem like it’s anyone’s guess what you’ll get from a given combo. However, I intend to proceed and before I finally buy a combo or two to try the following conclusions seem to have floated to the top:
  1. TB Enclosures - the most-popular brands seem to be Acasis & Orico. They seem to both perform similarly despite the varying models each make (each with varying specs). They both also include the chance that they won’t connect or will have random disconnect problems (due to the cable? or something about the Mac being used?) or have surprisingly slow speeds even with a premium Gen 4 NVMe SSD (though I am not of course expecting much more than 2,500 MB/s overall given that TB is the weak link in the comm chain).
  2. SSD’s - the only SSD that consistently seems to show write speed tests of ~2,500 MB/s is the 980 Pro. Most others seem to be well under 2,000 MB/s including, surprisingly, the Black SN850, Crucial P5….
Thoughts before I pick a combo or two and run further down this rabbit hole? Has anyone seen >2,000-ish MB/s wrte speeds from more affordable SSD’s (vs. the 980 EVO) like the Black SN770 or Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus?
I got more then 2000-ish Mb/s with Hynix P31. But not at all time. 980 Pro is more stable but more expensive ) Two storages in RAID0 mode can provide the best solution.
 

Mac-ra

macrumors member
Nov 18, 2022
42
15
TESTS OF THREE SSD's WITH TWO ENCLOSURES

I finally completed my tests of both of the Acacis TBU401 & Orico M2V01 with the 500GB versions of the 980 Pro, Rocket 4 Plus & Black SN770. This is what I saw (+/-50 MB/s for write) from all combinations connected to my M1 Pro MBP (with the 5GB file size test selected):

Rocket 4 Plus & Orico.png


The $80 980 Pro was a bit faster, the $50 SN770 was a bit slower and the $60 Sabrent was right in between (I even tried 1TB versions of the 980 Pro & SN770 since larger capacity SSD's usually have faster write specs but the results were no different). Strangely the Acasis enclosure was typically ~20MB/s slower for all SSD's (and swapping the TB cables didn't change this), but what's 20MB/s at these speeds?

I was surprised by these results since nearly everything I've seen so far indicates that the 980 Pro provides much faster write speeds than generally all other SSD's in these TB enclosures (even the enclosure sellers seem to document this and encourage the use of the 980 Pro over all else).

JustinLim's post #726 reported a result of 2,700MB/s writing for the 980 Pro with his "14 M1 Pro" and Beglitched's post #661 showed 2,600MB/s for the SN770 from his "M1 MacBook Pro" using BlackMagic. However it is unclear if their machines have the M1 Pro vs. Max CPU since the Max clearly outperforms the Pro in TB speeds.

Despite these two "I wish it were true for my Mac" data points my above results are what I expected for the 980 Pro on my M1 Pro MBP (mainly based on the Acacis table shown in post #718 which also hints at the possibility that the SN770 might be just as fast too). And I was glad to see the other SSD's perform similarly, especially the bargain priced SN770 (I decided to keep it along with the Acasis, which, because of some recent one-day deals on Amazon, I got for $155..not bad!).

CONCLUSIONS/QUESTIONS:
  1. SSD CHOICES - I now believe that the "myth" that only the 980 Pro can produce max TB write speeds is instead achieved by using a PCIe Gen. 4 SSD w/ TLC flash rather than Gen. 3 and/or QLC flash. If you look at all of the results in this thread; the various Youtube video test results; and the Acacis, Orico... SSD compatibility tables the 980 Pro is typically the only Gen. 4 TLC drive tested with the rest being Gen. 3 & QLC showing the slower write speeds (which is ironic since since these TB enclosures only support Gen. 3 though Gen. 3 & QLC drives typically have slower write speed specs anyway), except....
  2. IT'S ALSO THE PC/Mac PLATFORM STUPID - Not a mystery is that the data also shows that write speeds depend on the platform you are using. The M1 Max and M2 Air seem to get the max write speeds expected of TB3/4, the M1 Air sees sub 2,000MB/s write speeds, and the M1 Pro & Intel Mac's seem to get something in between like what my tests showed (though the M1 Mac mini also gets in-between results?).
    • WHY? - I know this "it depends on the platform" issue has been discussed in this thread but as a computer hardware lay-person I can't quite grasp what I've read so far (I can easily google my way to understanding PCIe gen. 4 vs. 3, NVMe, TB3/4 max data speeds, QLC vs. TLC flash, ..., but not this issue). Can anyone explain why the CPU can have such a huge effect on TB SSD write speeds?
  3. ACASIS vs. ORICO vs. ?? - I prefer the Acacis over the Orico for only one reason: the ridiculously teeny screw that the Orico uses to hold the the enclosure's cover in place. To get the cover on tight-enough to stop it from rattling I had to tighten it down well-beyond the torque level I'd feel comfortable with for something that small. The Torx head screw and screwdriver seemed to handle this torque but I can't imagine that it won't strip (either the threads or the Torx head) after multiple uses. Why Orico chose to go cheap on this screw given the enclosure's price and otherwise sturdy build I don't know (pity since I like the form factor better than the Acacis).
    • The only downside of the Acasis is that its tool-free system makes it difficult to "feel" whether the thermal padding is thick-enough (the cover's spring-loaded detent system pulls the top into place and masks this "feel" vs. the screw-on cover of the Orico). I came up with a couple of blacksmith-engineered techniques to determine if the padding was thick enough so I'm now OK with that problem.
    • Perhaps an enclosure that uses four screws to hold the cover in place, like the Siliking, might be the best compromise between a tool-free design and one that uses a single teeny screw to hold the cover in place?
 
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EzisAA

macrumors regular
Jan 26, 2017
110
66
Riga, Latvia
TESTS OF THREE SSD's WITH TWO ENCLOSURES

I finally completed my tests of both of the Acacis TBU401 & Orico M2V01 with the 500GB versions of the 980 Pro, Rocket 4 Plus & Black SN770. This is what I saw (+/-50 MB/s for write) from all combinations connected to my M1 Pro MBP (with the 5GB file size test selected):

View attachment 2129287

The $80 980 Pro was a bit faster, the $50 SN770 was a bit slower and the $60 Sabrent was right in between (I even tried 1TB versions of the 980 Pro & SN770 since larger capacity SSD's usually have faster write specs but the results were no different). Strangely the Acasis enclosure was typically ~20MB/s slower for all SSD's (and swapping the TB cables didn't change this), but what's 20MB/s at these speeds?

I was surprised by these results since everything I've seen so far indicates that the 980 Pro provides much faster write speeds than generally all other SSD's in these TB enclosures (even the enclosure sellers seem to document this and encourage the use of the 980 Pro over all else).

JustinLim's post #726 reported a result of 2,700MB/s writing for the 980 Pro with his "14 M1 Pro" and Beglitched's post #661 showed 2,600MB/s for the SN770 from his "M1 MacBook Pro" using BlackMagic. However it is unclear if their machines have the M1 Pro vs. Max chip since the Max clearly outperforms the Pro in TB speeds.

Despite these two "I wish it were true for my Mac" data points my above results was what I expected for the 980 Pro on my M1 Pro MBP (mainly based on the Acacis table shown in post #718). And I was glad to see the other SSD's perform similarly, especially the bargain priced SN770 (I decided to keep it along with the Acasis, which, because of some recent one-day deals on Amazon, I got for $155..not bad!).

CONCLUSIONS/QUESTIONS:
  1. SSD CHOICES - I now believe that the 980 Pro "myth" is really about using a PCIe Gen. 4 SSD w/ TLC flash rather than Gen 3 or one w/ QLC flash. If you look at all of the results in this thread; the various Youtube video test results; and the Acacis, Orico... etc. tables the 980 Pro is typically the only Gen. 4 TLC drive tested with the rest being Gen. 3 & QLC drives showing the slower write speeds (which is ironic since since these TB enclosures only support Gen. 3 though Gen. 3 & QLC drives typically have slower write speed specs anyway), except....
  2. IT'S ALSO THE PC/Mac PLATFORM STUPID - The data seems to show that it's also clearly about what platform you are using. The M1 Max and M2 Air seem to get the max write speeds expected of TB3/4, the M1 Air sees sub 2,000MB/s write speeds, and the M1 Pro & Intel Mac's seem to get something in between like what I saw (though the M1 Mac mini also gets in-between results?).
    • WHY? - I know this "it depends on the platform" issue has been discussed in this thread but my computer hardware pea-brain can quite grasp what I've read so far. Can anyone explain this for a computer hardware-challenged person?
  3. ACASIS vs. ORICO - I greatly prefer the Acacis over the Orico for only one reason: the ridiculously teeny screw used to hold the the enclosure's top in place. I had to tighten it down well-beyond the torque level I'd feel comfortable for something that small just to get the top from rattling. The Torx head screw and screwdriver seemed to handle this torque but I can't imagine that it won't strip (either the threads or the Torx head) after multiple uses. Why Orico chose to go cheap on this screw given the enclosure's price and otherwise sturdy build I don't know (pity since I like the form factor better than the Acacis).
    • The only downside of the Acasis is that its tool-free system makes it difficult to "feel" whether the thermal padding is thick-enough (the top's spring-loaded detent system pulls the top into place and masks this "feel" vs. the screw-on cover of the Orico). I came up with a couple of blacksmith-engineered techniques to determine if the padding was thick enough so I'm now OK with that problem.
My MacBook Pro M1 read and write about 2,6 GB/s from/to Acasis 980 Pro 2TB. After DRAM cache is full in 980 Pro, it's write about 1,6 GB/s.
*Real life test, not the stupid BlackMagic test who test with 5GB to DRAM cache 🤭
 

Mac-ra

macrumors member
Nov 18, 2022
42
15
My MacBook Pro M1 read and write about 2,6 GB/s from/to Acasis 980 Pro 2TB. After DRAM cache is full in 980 Pro, it's write about 1,6 GB/s.
*Real life test, not the stupid BlackMagic test who test with 5GB to DRAM cache 🤭
Understood (and I assume that by "Pro M1" you mean your MBP has the M1 Pro CPU?). I only use BlackMagic since it does help provide a good apples-to-apples performance comparison even if it doesn't represent real life use. Perhaps your 2.6GB/s is due to the 2TB capacity or perhaps BlackMagic might give you something closer to what I got?
 
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