USB on M1 Macs isn't actually 10Gb/s? (Also definitely not USB4)

[joevt]

Possibly another M1 Mac USB problem:
UASP might not work from a Thunderbolt 4 hub/dock connected to an M1 Mac.
It may work from the M1 Mac directly, or from the Thunderbolt 4 hub/dock if it is not connected to M1 Mac or if the Thunderbolt 4 hub/dock is connected to a Thunderbolt 3 device.

Read https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...olt-3-ports-to-your-mac.2270255/post-30156775 from #155 to #167.

Can anyone confirm this or does anyone have a scenario with different results? Verify what controller the USB storage device is using. And use ioreg to determine if it is using the MassStorageUASDriver.
ioreg -i | egrep 'MassStorage.*Driver |IOMedia,|:AppleUSBHostController'

 

[Tech198]

Could be related to USB4 vs. USB 3.x spec.

USB 3.1 Gen 10 GB is I think multi-lane (2x 5GB lanes - it's also called USB 3.1 Gen 2x2 for 10 GB I think), maybe USB4 is not.

USB4 is very similar to thunderbolt, and it may not work in a backwards compatible way with USB3.x in multi-lane.

Which means a single lane at USB 3.x will only get you 5 gigabit, despite the USB4 interface being faster (in a single lane) - but only when running in "USB 4" mode with a USB4 device.


Would also explain why you get full speed through the dock - you're going thunderbolt to another USB 3.x controller on the dock which DOES operate in multi-lane mode.


edit:
And I agree. the USB naming standards are deliberately designed by committee to cause confusion - so that OEMs can sell last year's product as "USB 3.2" or whatever with the original spec from USB 3.0.

The names don't just not make sense - they have actually re-named the same spec to a later version with a "gen1" on it.

i.e., if I recall properly, USB 3.2 gen1 is actually the exact same thing as USB 3.0. And USB 3.1 gen1.

That's 10 GB without the overhead right? USB is theoretical speeds. Thunderbolt probably different.

What is USB overhead and why does it reduce the theoretical transfer rate so much?

I've been reading a lot about the topic USB/FireWire recently and stumbled upon the fact that, despite USB 2.0 having a rate of 480MBit/s, it often does not reach the actual transfer rate of 60MB/s.

electronics.stackexchange.com

 

[joevt]

That's 10 GB without the overhead right? USB is theoretical speeds. Thunderbolt probably different.

What is USB overhead and why does it reduce the theoretical transfer rate so much?

I've been reading a lot about the topic USB/FireWire recently and stumbled upon the fact that, despite USB 2.0 having a rate of 480MBit/s, it often does not reach the actual transfer rate of 60MB/s.

electronics.stackexchange.com

Why are you replying to a post from page 1 of this 16 page thread without reading all the later posts first which probably answer these questions?

Read the USB page on wikipedia. 10 Gbps of USB is actually 10 Gbps * 128b/132b = 9.697 Gbps = 1212.12 MB/s
It takes 132 bits on the wire to transmit 128 bits. Then there's USB protocol overhead so actual data bandwidth you can see in a benchmark like AmorphousDiskMark.app is going to be up to ≈1060 MB/s on a non-M1 USB controller such as from Intel Thunderbolt or ASMedia ASM3142.

 

[adonis3k]

Tested the Wavlink Thunderbolt 3 NVMe enclosure with a Samsung EVO 980 1TB NVMe and got really good results.

While I was at it, I used the TB3 cable that came with this on the Orico RTL9210 3.1 Gen 2 enclosure to see if it made any difference. It performed just the same as with the USB cable that came with it.

BTW, the first Wavlink enclosure I received was faulty and would not mount the drive. Got a slow 2 blinks error code on the unit. Emailed their support and they said it was likely faulty and to return it. Returned it to Amazon and ordered another one.

The Wavlink comes with a heat sink, but I also put a piece of thermal tape between the NVMe and the heat sink and it fit pretty snuggly, but looks okay.

I just got the Wavlink one, which thermal tape did you use? My Orico had some blue pad thing

 

[GoetzPhil]

Im just waiting for my OWC Envoy Pro EX - preorder again and hopefully delivered early november then.

 

[white7561]

So i'm currently still using MBA 2014 and gonna upgrade to M1X later when it comes out. so im using an NVME to USB 3 enclosure with ASM2362 chipset with the latest firmware available. for the longest time i thought its my enclosure or something that's broken because sometimes it freezes while transferring data, etc . sometimes it would continue and sometimes it wouldn't . So it turns out its because of the chipset incompatibility with the MBA 2014's USB controller. since when on USB 3 (UAS is enabled . confirmed with ioreg) and then you do a loop of diskutil verifyVolume . it will at some point stop and hang and continue. or just stop responding. the only way to remedy this is to just do unplug and replug. then i tried connecting in usb 2 mode. where its not using UAS. only the normal massStorage. and it works just fine. never did i get any hangups or slowness in the loop of verify volume.

Note that i use verifyvolume since its the only way to reproduce the problem 100% of the time. on day to day its not always showing. sometimes it does that sometimes it doesnt.

so my question is, does this still happen on M1 macs?? Anyone here using external SSD with ASM2362 (Samsung T5/7 i think and then crucial X8 one etc) has a problem with the ssd sometimes freezing??

if not, could anyone try this and let me know if it does that or not??

just open terminal and just do

ioreg | grep UAS
to make sure UAS is enabled (when the device is connected)

and then do
until false ; do diskutil verifyVolume diskX ;sleep 1 ;done
this will repeat that diskutil verifyVolume command until you cancel it using CTRL+C . Change the diskX with your mounted disk number . let it run for 10 mins. and come back and check if every command runs as fast as it were the first time you ran it. if it is then its fine. if its starting to lag like slow rather than the first command run. it means that it might be problematic too.

Thanks

 

[anonymous888]

800MB/s write, 817MB/s read

I also bought a RTL9210 enclosure. Using WD SN750 with it. But only getting 750W and 720R on M1 Mac Monterey.

 

[vannix]

Anyone tested the new MacBook Pros ? I hope Apple fixed this... I want to use both my Orico 10gbps clear ssd enclosures at full speed

 

[white7561]

Anyone tested the new MacBook Pros ? I hope Apple fixed this... I want to use both my Orico 10gbps clear ssd enclosures at full speed

I think it's still the same. I guess the USB controller isn't as fast as Intel's. Tho thunderbolt seems fine.

Tbh I saw 700MBps ++ which is good enough IMO for me atleast. But yeh it's nice having as much performance as possible

 

[vannix]

I think it's still the same. I guess the USB controller isn't as fast as Intel's. Tho thunderbolt seems fine.

Tbh I saw 700MBps ++ which is good enough IMO for me atleast. But yeh it's nice having as much performance as possible

So even on the Oder M1 macs, had this been fixed by Apple via software update? Okay the slightly lower speed.. but at least, are all usb-c gen 2 10Gbps devices working? Reading through this thread pages seemed that the issue is real

 

[white7561]

So even on the Oder M1 macs, had this been fixed by Apple via software update? Okay the slightly lower speed.. but at least, are all usb-c gen 2 10Gbps devices working? Reading through this thread pages seemed that the issue is real

That I don't know. But it's weird to me that some even with the same bridge chip can have 5gbps or 10gbps speed in the M1 Macs. I think it has something to do with the bridge chip firmware version too. Prob try getting it to the latest and check it out again

I know this because I've seen people report that some T7 or T5 and some others connect at 5gbps only while the rest says it's 10gbps on M1. And the chips are the same. So it's prob the firmware too

 

[mick2]

Anyone tested the new MacBook Pros ? I hope Apple fixed this... I want to use both my Orico 10gbps clear ssd enclosures at full speed

I can confirm that my Samsung T5 still only connects at 5Gb/s on my new 14" M1Pro (Monterey); just as it did on my previous 2020 Intel MBA (Catalina). This is using the same Samsung-supplied lead that runs the same drive at 10Gb/s on Win10 and Linux.

So, the issue appears not to be fixed even on this new gen.

 

[white7561]

I can confirm that my Samsung T5 still only connects at 5Gb/s on my new 14" M1Pro (Monterey); just as it did on my previous 2020 Intel MBA (Catalina). This is using the same Samsung-supplied lead that runs the same drive at 10Gb/s on Win10 and Linux.

So, the issue appears not to be fixed even on this new gen.

View attachment 1883043

I think I've seen people using T5 with 10gbps link here. I think it could be a firmware thing too with the bridge chip. What bridge chip is the T5 using?

 

[mick2]

I think I've seen people using T5 with 10gbps link here. I think it could be a firmware thing too with the bridge chip. What bridge chip is the T5 using?

It's suggested that its an ASMedia bridge, but no specifics on the model number:

"In a rare but sensible deviation from complete vertical integration, Samsung seems to be passing USB controller duties off to an ASMedia mSATA-to-USB bridge controller." from https://techreport.com/review/32396/samsungs-portable-ssd-t5-reviewed/

"The drive is available in sizes ranging from 250GB to 2TB and comes with an ASMedia mSATA-to-USB bridge controller, rather than one of Samsung’s own." https://www.techradar.com/uk/reviews/samsung-portable-ssd-t5

Samsung don't appear to specify - could be a custom part from ASMedia.

edit: Found this: "The Samsung T5 External SSD uses the ASMedia ASM235CM Gen 2 SATA III bridge chip" from https://www.mbreviews.com/samsung-t5-vs-sandisk-extreme-ssd/

 

[white7561]

It's suggested that its an ASMedia bridge, but no specifics on the model number:

"In a rare but sensible deviation from complete vertical integration, Samsung seems to be passing USB controller duties off to an ASMedia mSATA-to-USB bridge controller." from https://techreport.com/review/32396/samsungs-portable-ssd-t5-reviewed/

"The drive is available in sizes ranging from 250GB to 2TB and comes with an ASMedia mSATA-to-USB bridge controller, rather than one of Samsung’s own." https://www.techradar.com/uk/reviews/samsung-portable-ssd-t5

Samsung don't appear to specify - could be a custom part from ASMedia.

edit: Found this: "The Samsung T5 External SSD uses the ASMedia ASM235CM Gen 2 SATA III bridge chip" from https://www.mbreviews.com/samsung-t5-vs-sandisk-extreme-ssd/

I see . T7 is working fine I assume? I heard it's 10gigs . I think it's using the same ASM2362 as my ROG Strix Arion NVMe enclosure. It should work at 10gigs too.

I'll try when my MacBook comes. Anyways does T5 have any firmware upgrade capabilities from Samsung software? If not could you upgrade it manually? It might fix it if there is a much newer version

 

[mick2]

I see . T7 is working fine I assume? I heard it's 10gigs . I think it's using the same ASM2362 as my ROG Strix Arion NVMe enclosure. It should work at 10gigs too.

I'll try when my MacBook comes. Anyways does T5 have any firmware upgrade capabilities from Samsung software? If not could you upgrade it manually? It might fix it if there is a much newer version

T5 is on latest firmware (1.6.9). I do not have a T7.

I do have a Crucial X8 - uses an ASMedia 2362 (https://www.anandtech.com/show/15028/crucial-introduces-x8-portable-ssd). This works correctly at 10Gb/s on all my machines, Intel MBA / M1Pro / Win10 / Linux.

 

[vannix]

T5 is on latest firmware (1.6.9). I do not have a T7.

I do have a Crucial X8 - uses an ASMedia 2362 (https://www.anandtech.com/show/15028/crucial-introduces-x8-portable-ssd). This works correctly at 10Gb/s on all my machines, Intel MBA / M1Pro / Win10 / Linux.

Okay so this is mainly a chipset problem…
Even if Apple proprietary usb rails are maybe a little slower, with a supported chipset it should go fine 10Gbps

My two ssd enclosures have the VIA VL716-Q4 chipset, wondering if it will do fine or not.
Anyone tested this?

 

[Fomalhaut]

I think I've seen people using T5 with 10gbps link here. I think it could be a firmware thing too with the bridge chip. What bridge chip is the T5 using?

My T5 connects at 10Gbps on both the M1 Mini and Intel MBP16, IIRC.

 

[mick2]

My T5 connects at 10Gbps on both the M1 Mini and Intel MBP16, IIRC.

Any chance you could test and confirm 100%? As none of this is documented/acknowledged by Apple, we're somewhat groping around in the dark trying to nail the issue, so hardware / os details and confirmation via testing are especially useful.

 

[white7561]

T5 is on latest firmware (1.6.9). I do not have a T7.

I do have a Crucial X8 - uses an ASMedia 2362 (https://www.anandtech.com/show/15028/crucial-introduces-x8-portable-ssd). This works correctly at 10Gb/s on all my machines, Intel MBA / M1Pro / Win10 / Linux.

Yeah. It's prob the chipset. Firmware usually affects this too.

 

[white7561]

Okay so this is mainly a chipset problem…
Even if Apple proprietary usb rails are maybe a little slower, with a supported chipset it should go fine 10Gbps

My two ssd enclosures have the VIA VL716-Q4 chipset, wondering if it will do fine or not.
Anyone tested this?

I have this chipset too for a 2242 SSD enclosure. Would love to know this too.

My T5 connects at 10Gbps on both the M1 Mini and Intel MBP16, IIRC.

If it is 10gbps on M1 mini, then im probably right. It's the firmware.

 

[vannix]

I have this chipset too for a 2242 SSD enclosure. Would love to know this too.


If it is 10gbps on M1 mini, then im probably right. It's the firmware.

As soon as I get the new MacBook I will test it by myself and report !

In the meanwhile, hope someone can chime in for the VIA VL716-Q4.

 

[white7561]

As soon as I get the new MacBook I will test it by myself and report !

In the meanwhile, hope someone can chime in for the VIA VL716-Q4.

True. Mine is still on the way so I can't test anything.

 

[mick2]

If it is 10gbps on M1 mini, then im probably right. It's the firmware.

You mean the firmware in the Mac, rather than the drive?

 

[white7561]

You mean the firmware in the Mac, rather than the drive?

The bridge chip. The Asmedia chip.