USB on M1 Macs isn't actually 10Gb/s? (Also definitely not USB4)

[albercook]

Let me know if this is too off-topic or has been addressed already. Back in 2015 I replaced the superdrive in my 2011 MBP with a tray that held an SSD. I set it and the internal SSD up to run RAID0 and got a huge increase in performance. In fact, that machine with 16 GB of RAM still feels faster than my MBP M1 2020 8 GB when running Cura.

To my question, are there two ports on the new M1PRO or M1MAX 14" MBP that have independent controllers that I can set up and RAID0? I could use the internal SSD as the backup of the external RAID0 so I don't have to worry about the increased failure rate inherent in RAID0.

I would have a wicked kit for video editing.

BTW: From what I remember the two drives were actually almost 2X faster than the single drive.

 

[mick2]

Let me know if this is too off-topic or has been addressed already. Back in 2015 I replaced the superdrive in my 2011 MBP with a tray that held an SSD. I set it and the internal SSD up to run RAID0 and got a huge increase in performance. In fact, that machine with 16 GB of RAM still feels faster than my MBP M1 2020 8 GB when running Cura.

To my question, are there two ports on the new M1PRO or M1MAX 14" MBP that have independent controllers that I can set up and RAID0? I could use the internal SSD as the backup of the external RAID0 so I don't have to worry about the increased failure rate inherent in RAID0.

I would have a wicked kit for video editing.

BTW: From what I remember the two drives were actually almost 2X faster than the single drive.

The speeds of NVME drives have made this kind of thing largely unnecessary. The ports on the M1Pro are USB4, which have a max theoretical speed of 40Gb/s, or 5000MB/s. In practice, an external NVME attached to this will get something more like 25Gb/s max, or 3125MB/s. This is a limitation of the interface; it makes no difference whether the drives are in a RAID configuration or not.

The internal drive of the M1Pros are around 7000MB/s (read) and 6300MB/s (write) for 1TB version; it is significantly faster than anything connected via the USB4 ports.

So if speed is an issue at all, you should do your work on the internal drive and use the external USB4 drive as a backup, rather than vice-versa.

 

[albercook]

So the only benefit would be the cost of external vs internal.

Just checked upgrade from 500GB to 1TG in only $200. So no big savings.

 

[white7561]

AFAIK. On these new machines. Every port has its own USB 4 40gbit controller. So theoretically you can use many nvme SSDs and raid them

 

[mick2]

AFAIK. On these new machines. Every port has its own USB 4 40gbit controller. So theoretically you can use many nvme SSDs and raid them

Interesting - I didn't know they were on 3 separate controllers, I assumed the 3 ports were run over max 2 controllers.

Could be possible. You'd need to use s/w RAID (ie via the OS)...I'd still place my money on this setup not beating the internal NVME by much, if any. Plus y'know, RAID0 and all...?

Anyone out there got 3 spare external nvme blades who wants to try this? ?

 

[AllThingsConsidered]

I'm using a M1-chip MBP and to test it with Sandisk E61 directly attached (see pic 1), the actual speed falls into between 630-650MB/s both on read and written.

Sandisk E61 supports USB 3.2 gen2. So I guess the issue hasn't been fixed yet on M1 machines to date? View attachment 1921697


View attachment 1921696

I have the same Portable SSD and getting the same on the M1 MBA. Reached out to Sandisk about it and they are offering a replacement, but I didn't send it back as it appears it is a common issue and my device is working as intended. Still watching this thread for news myself.

 

[Erasmus]

Let me know if this is too off-topic or has been addressed already. Back in 2015 I replaced the superdrive in my 2011 MBP with a tray that held an SSD. I set it and the internal SSD up to run RAID0 and got a huge increase in performance. In fact, that machine with 16 GB of RAM still feels faster than my MBP M1 2020 8 GB when running Cura.

I would like to point out that a 2011 MBP uses SATA 3, so even with perfect RAID0 scaling, the disk speed should still be less than half the speed of a M1 SSD.

The SSD in the 14" MBP should be something like 6 times faster.

I'm thinking if you feel that the 2011 is giving you better performance than the 2020 M1, it's probably more likely because of newer operating system choking on the smaller amount of system RAM.

 

[legato01]

Got the ACASIS TB3 Mini Dock with enclosure for about $120

It's a tiny TB3 dock that has an SSD enclosure or can be described as an SSD enclosure that has a TB3 dock.
Doesn't work without USB C power delivery connected.
Other USB-C SSD connected to it get the promised 10Gbps.

Has some quirks, i.e. for some reason I have to connect my monitor to it's DisplayPort to get max SSD speeds.
If the monitor is not connected, write speeds are slower.

Does not work well or coexist with the ACASIS USB4/TB4 SSD enclosure in M1 for some reason.
Device shows up in Thunderbolt but SSD/NVMe does not show up.
Not sure if this is a totally unrelated issue.

 

[Erasmus]

Not a helpful post, but I did want to express my general disappointment that there STILL doesn't seem to be a proper solution to super-fast external storage via USB4 or TB4, let alone the M1 macs.

USB4/TB4 should be capable of doing 40Gbit/s, or 4-5 GB/s. The SSD's aren't the problem, it's easy to buy reasonably priced PCIE4 SSDs that can do up to 7GB/s read and write. So why is it still so hard to get a solution that will do over 2GB/s???

We shouldn't have to deal with quirks, we shouldn't have to study the specs (such as picking the 970 EVO over the superior 970 EVO Plus, for example).

A case and interface chip shouldn't cost almost as much as what you're putting in the case.

USB4/TB4 should be making things EASIER, not harder, and it is so disappointing that the consumer is getting burned by these shenanigans.

End Of Vent.

 

[ubercool]

Not a helpful post, but I did want to express my general disappointment that there STILL doesn't seem to be a proper solution to super-fast external storage via USB4 or TB4, let alone the M1 macs.

USB4/TB4 should be capable of doing 40Gbit/s, or 4-5 GB/s. The SSD's aren't the problem, it's easy to buy reasonably priced PCIE4 SSDs that can do up to 7GB/s read and write. So why is it still so hard to get a solution that will do over 2GB/s???

We shouldn't have to deal with quirks, we shouldn't have to study the specs (such as picking the 970 EVO over the superior 970 EVO Plus, for example).

A case and interface chip shouldn't cost almost as much as what you're putting in the case.

USB4/TB4 should be making things EASIER, not harder, and it is so disappointing that the consumer is getting burned by these shenanigans.

End Of Vent.

In 2017, I interviewed an engineer to build the ultimate SSD drive that would address the very challenge you describe. I was going to call it the Ubercool Drive (you figure it out ?).

Three years later, we got the GigaDrive on Indiegogo, which had the means to solve the problem. Still hasn’t shipped yet AFAIK, despite raising $1.7 million from well-meaning crowdfunders.

It must be difficult, given that none of the major players has been able to ship anything remotely satisfying. ?

 

[Erasmus]

In 2017, I interviewed an engineer to build the ultimate SSD drive that would address the very challenge you describe. I was going to call it the Ubercool Drive (you figure it out ?).

Three years later, we got the GigaDrive on Indiegogo, which had the means to solve the problem. Still hasn’t shipped yet AFAIK, despite raising $1.7 million from well-meaning crowdfunders.

It must be difficult, given that none of the major players has been able to ship anything remotely satisfying. ?

Evidently ?

But considering TB is based around 4 PCIE lanes, the question has to be asked WHY is it so difficult? Motherboards have been turning PCIE into M.2 NVME for what, 5+ years? So who do I shake my fist at???

 

[ubercool]

Evidently ?

But considering TB is based around 4 PCIE lanes, the question has to be asked WHY is it so difficult? Motherboards have been turning PCIE into M.2 NVME for what, 5+ years? So who do I shake my fist at???

I don’t know exactly why but the fault probably lies with Intel, the licensor of Thunderbolt, and the various makers of bridge chips, like ASMedia, who both were tight-lipped, if not downright hostile. These institutions have been trained to resist efforts of startups that might disrupt the market because they don’t want to jeopardize existing client relationships.

Any industry insiders able to shed more light on the situation? Also, why can a Taiwanese hardware manufacturer like GigaDrive not ship a long-promised SSD on time? ?

 

[bobcomer]

I don’t know exactly why but the fault probably lies with Intel, the licensor of Thunderbolt, and the various makers of bridge chips, like ASMedia, who both were tight-lipped, if not downright hostile. These institutions have been trained to resist efforts of startups that might disrupt the market because they don’t want to jeopardize existing client relationships.

Why Intel? Intel based laptops with thunderbolt don't have ethernet speed problems. And Apple silicon wifi is slower too...

Any industry insiders able to shed more light on the situation? Also, why can a Taiwanese hardware manufacturer like GigaDrive not ship a long-promised SSD on time? ?

The general chip shortage that effects everyone now?

 

[Hexley]

The general chip shortage that effects everyone now?

People who do not leave their mancave and just do this forum would have less visibility of the pandemic

 

[ubercool]

People who do not leave their mancave and just do this forum would have less visibility of the pandemic

Didn’t have your Wheaties this morning, dipstick? ? TEKQ had no problems. OWC had no problems.

 

[legato01]

Pandemic aside, for buying options, based only on "bro" science.

Disclaimer: More likely wrong but probably "safer" to just get TB3 devices for now if you want a fast dock or SSD.

USB4/TB4 accessories / drivers not yet stable since this is the first versions/implementations.
USB4/TB4 is essentially non-Intel TB3 with some additional features.
Does not seem to work well with TB3. At least not yet.
Many TB4 docks seem to indicate not compatible with M1, for example Anker.

TB3 is Intel only; It seems "more" backwards compatible with previous USB (3.2, 3.1, 3.0, etc) and Intel had few chances to iterate on this.

Not sure who to raise my fists also.
USB used to be just plug and play. Now it seems it needs further improvements.

 

[RamGuy]

Do these issues affect both Apple M1, M1 Pro, M1 Max and then supposedly also the M1 Ultra? I'm planning to replace my Windows Server tower with the Mac Studio and was going to connect 4x Samsung T7 2TB NVMe drives. These are only USB3.2 2x2 so about 1000/1000MBps, but it will suffice as server storage. But if all these reports of dropping down to half the speed aka 500/500MBps are true then I'm a tad bit more hesitant.

The option would then be to go for something like Trebeelt Thunderbolt 3 enclosures:

Thunderbolt 3 Two-Slot M.2 NVMe SSD Enclosure Compatible with New M1 | TREBLEET

Supports Two NVMe Drives and aluminum enclosure featuring two Thunderbolt 3 ports，up to 2800MB/s of mind-bending performance via Thunderbolt 3. Support software RAID0 and Raid1 Support computers with Thunderbolt 2 interface（Need Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter） Support power delivery port...

www.trebleet.com

But the price for an option for Thunderbolt 3 enclosures + adding 2TB NVMe drives becomes more expensive and you add in a host of potential issues as if things end up not working as advertised you have to deal with both the NVMe manufacturer and the manufacturer of the enclosure itself.

 

[joevt]

USB3.2 2x2

2x2 = 20Gbps. I think you mean 2x1? I would call them USB 3.1 gen 2 so you don't need the x1 suffix.
macOS doesn't support 2x2 20Gbps without a patch.

 

[RamGuy]

2x2 = 20Gbps. I think you mean 2x1? I would call them USB 3.1 gen 2 so you don't need the x1 suffix.
macOS doesn't support 2x2 20Gbps without a patch.

That might be correct. This USB naming scheme has gotten rather confusing.

 

[gebseng]

2x2 = 20Gbps. I think you mean 2x1? I would call them USB 3.1 gen 2 so you don't need the x1 suffix.
macOS doesn't support 2x2 20Gbps without a patch.

there is a patch?

 

[joevt]

there is a patch?

Not yet. You want one? I have an ASMedia ASM3142 that I would like to get working at 20 Gbps one day. The alternative is to use the GenericUSBXHCI.kext source code (with some modifications to make it not affect normal USB controllers).

 

[RamGuy]

What would be the best external NVMe enclosure that will actually give you optimal performance when connected to a Mac Studio? Any recommendations? Been looking at:

Thunderbolt 3 Two-Slot M.2 NVMe SSD Enclosure Compatible with New M1 | TREBLEET

Supports Two NVMe Drives and aluminum enclosure featuring two Thunderbolt 3 ports，up to 2800MB/s of mind-bending performance via Thunderbolt 3. Support software RAID0 and Raid1 Support computers with Thunderbolt 2 interface（Need Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter） Support power delivery port...

www.trebleet.com

But this is getting very confusing, and I have yet to find anything utilising Thunderbolt 4.

 

[jdb8167]

What would be the best external NVMe enclosure that will actually give you optimal performance when connected to a Mac Studio? Any recommendations? Been looking at:

Thunderbolt 3 Two-Slot M.2 NVMe SSD Enclosure Compatible with New M1 | TREBLEET

Supports Two NVMe Drives and aluminum enclosure featuring two Thunderbolt 3 ports，up to 2800MB/s of mind-bending performance via Thunderbolt 3. Support software RAID0 and Raid1 Support computers with Thunderbolt 2 interface（Need Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter） Support power delivery port...

www.trebleet.com

But this is getting very confusing, and I have yet to find anything utilising Thunderbolt 4.

Thunderbolt 3 and 4 are very similar with Thunderbolt 4 clarifying some requirements that were optional in Thunderbolt 3. With Apple's TB3 devices they are all pretty much equivalent to TB4 with the main exception being Apple M1 computers because they don't support the number external displays required by TB4.

The most likely devices that you will find with TB4 are TB4 docks. Here are a couple:

OWC Thunderbolt Hub
Caldigit Thunderbolt 4 | USB 4 Element Hub

 

[starmax]

Do these issues affect both Apple M1, M1 Pro, M1 Max and then supposedly also the M1 Ultra? I'm planning to replace my Windows Server tower with the Mac Studio and was going to connect 4x Samsung T7 2TB NVMe drives. These are only USB3.2 2x2 so about 1000/1000MBps, but it will suffice as server storage. But if all these reports of dropping down to half the speed aka 500/500MBps are true then I'm a tad bit more hesitant.

The option would then be to go for something like Trebeelt Thunderbolt 3 enclosures:

Thunderbolt 3 Two-Slot M.2 NVMe SSD Enclosure Compatible with New M1 | TREBLEET

Supports Two NVMe Drives and aluminum enclosure featuring two Thunderbolt 3 ports，up to 2800MB/s of mind-bending performance via Thunderbolt 3. Support software RAID0 and Raid1 Support computers with Thunderbolt 2 interface（Need Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter） Support power delivery port...

www.trebleet.com

But the price for an option for Thunderbolt 3 enclosures + adding 2TB NVMe drives becomes more expensive and you add in a host of potential issues as if things end up not working as advertised you have to deal with both the NVMe manufacturer and the manufacturer of the enclosure itself.

I get the same USB-C (10mbps OWC enclosure) speed on my M1 mini and M1Max MBP when connected directly. Bought an OWC thunderbolt dock for my mini and use that for high speed USB devices.

 

[SebCohen]

That I don't know. But it's weird to me that some even with the same bridge chip can have 5gbps or 10gbps speed in the M1 Macs. I think it has something to do with the bridge chip firmware version too. Prob try getting it to the latest and check it out again

I know this because I've seen people report that some T7 or T5 and some others connect at 5gbps only while the rest says it's 10gbps on M1. And the chips are the same. So it's prob the firmware too

What IF, just if….the chip shortage made Apple source some chips from different manufacturers that, theoretically should support the same specs?