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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,935
4,237
the Orico enclosure does not support PCIe Gen 4. I already had the PCIe Gen 4 NVME drive so I put it in there (PCIe Gen 4 is backward compatible). So my drive is maxing out the Orico enclosure's bandwidth.
If it was a PCIe Gen 4 NVMe, it will connect as PCIe Gen 3 when connected to Thunderbolt or USB-C enclosures.
If it was a PCIe Gen 4 NVMe in a Thunderbolt enclosure, then I would expect numbers like these for write/read:
≈2500 MB/s from Black Magic Disk Speed Test.
≈2600 MB/s from AJA System Test Lite.
≈2800 MB/s from AmorphousDiskMark.
which is what I get with a Sabrent Rocket 4.0 2 TB. It also works in a USB-C NVMe enclosure:
≈970 MB/s from Black Magic Disk Speed Test.
≈1000 MB/s from AJA System Test Lite.
≈1050 MB/s from AmorphousDiskMark.

Tested on Mac mini 2018, Catalina 10.15.7
 

VitoBotta

macrumors 6502a
Dec 2, 2020
867
342
Espoo, Finland
I have a T5 and it's significantly slower with the M1 mini. I read the thread but I am confused as I am not familiar with some terms etc. What is the actual reason why drives are slower with the M1 mini? Is it a software issue that can be fixed? Please ELI5 🙂
 
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macca24

macrumors member
Dec 11, 2020
54
76
Definitely something not right with the speeds on USB-C
I have the new M1 Mac Mini and my brother has a 2018 Intel i7 model. We did a comparison with a Samsung T7, same lead on both tests.

Intel i7.
Intel i7 Mac Mini.jpeg
M1 Mac Mini.png
M1
 
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VitoBotta

macrumors 6502a
Dec 2, 2020
867
342
Espoo, Finland
I tried connecting the Samsung T5 to a 3.1 port with the other cable instead of USB-C, and the speeds were even lower. I was surprised because I read that for some the speeds were higher that way.
 
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kard32

macrumors member
Dec 3, 2020
38
54
Oh no...I was considering getting a 256gb M1 (but bumping up to 16gb) with the idea of using an external drive for video editing. Do you guys think this is something that can be fixed in software?
 

Pressure

macrumors 603
May 30, 2006
5,166
1,531
Denmark
Oh no...I was considering getting a 256gb M1 (but bumping up to 16gb) with the idea of using an external drive for video editing. Do you guys think this is something that can be fixed in software?
Use an external Thunderbolt enclosure if you think editing video require such high sequential read and write speeds.
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,935
4,237
I have a T5 and it's significantly slower with the M1 mini. I read the thread but I am confused as I am not familiar with some terms etc. What is the actual reason why drives are slower with the M1 mini? Is it a software issue that can be fixed? Please ELI5 🙂
There are a couple problems with USB 3.1 gen 2 on M1 Macs:

1) USB 3.1 gen 2 (10 Gbps) drives connected to Thunderbolt port of M1 Mac may connect as USB 3.0 (USB 3.1 gen 1 = 5 Gbps) drives. This reduces speed to under 500 MB/s.

2) The M1 Macs have a less than optimal USB 3.1 gen 2 controller or driver. Drives that can normally get over 900 MB/s (up to 1000 MB/s) on an Intel Mac Thunderbolt port are limited to between 750 and 850 MB/s on an M1 Mac. Do we have benchmark apps that are compiled for ARM yet? Blackmagic Speed Test and AmorphousDiskMark are both universal apps so they should be ok. AJA System Test Lite hasn't been updated in three years.

A workaround is to connect the drive to a Thunderbolt dock. Has anyone tested that?

The M1 Macs can get over 2000 MB/s with a Thunderbolt drive so there's no problem there. I would be happier if someone showed a number in the 2700 MB/s range (up to 2800 MB/s using AmorphousDiskMark SEQ1M QD8).
 

VitoBotta

macrumors 6502a
Dec 2, 2020
867
342
Espoo, Finland
There are a couple problems with USB 3.1 gen 2 on M1 Macs:

1) USB 3.1 gen 2 (10 Gbps) drives connected to Thunderbolt port of M1 Mac may connect as USB 3.0 (USB 3.1 gen 1 = 5 Gbps) drives. This reduces speed to under 500 MB/s.

2) The M1 Macs have a less than optimal USB 3.1 gen 2 controller or driver. Drives that can normally get over 900 MB/s (up to 1000 MB/s) on an Intel Mac Thunderbolt port are limited to between 750 and 850 MB/s on an M1 Mac. Do we have benchmark apps that are compiled for ARM yet? Blackmagic Speed Test and AmorphousDiskMark are both universal apps so they should be ok. AJA System Test Lite hasn't been updated in three years.

A workaround is to connect the drive to a Thunderbolt dock. Has anyone tested that?

The M1 Macs can get over 2000 MB/s with a Thunderbolt drive so there's no problem there. I would be happier if someone showed a number in the 2700 MB/s range (up to 2800 MB/s using AmorphousDiskMark SEQ1M QD8).
Thanks :)
 
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anticipate

macrumors 6502a
Dec 22, 2013
931
763
I also have this problem with a m1 MacBook Air base model. Samsung T5 1TB and 2TB are 380MB/s read on m1 Air VS 520MB/s read on MBP 15" 2018. Have submitted a bug report to Apple.
I am seeing it too with t5 and also a Sandisk 10gbit usb-c 3.1 gen 2 RAID SSD.
I thought I was going crazy but the link speed is limited to 5gbit.

However using an NVMe stick in a thunderbolt 3 enclosure it runs at full speed.

I got an anker thunderbolt dock and was surprised to see the ports were running at 5gbit for the usb 3.1 gen 2 devices. Now I see Apple needs to work on those drivers!

Luckily the battery life is so good that it’s not a huge issue (having to use both ports to ingest footage or whatever)
 
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colday

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2010
145
94
I just got an OWC Envoy Express with their recommend M.2NVME 1TB SSD. I don't get their specified 1553 speed, but on both my M1 MBA & my 2020 27" iMac I get this:

Screen Shot 2020-12-12 at 5.32.29 PM.png


I'm well please with it!
 
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deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,466
6,563
US
There are a couple problems with USB 3.1 gen 2 on M1 Macs:

1) USB 3.1 gen 2 (10 Gbps) drives connected to Thunderbolt port of M1 Mac may connect as USB 3.0 (USB 3.1 gen 1 = 5 Gbps) drives. This reduces speed to under 500 MB/s.

2) The M1 Macs have a less than optimal USB 3.1 gen 2 controller or driver. Drives that can normally get over 900 MB/s (up to 1000 MB/s) on an Intel Mac Thunderbolt port are limited to between 750 and 850 MB/s on an M1 Mac. Do we have benchmark apps that are compiled for ARM yet? Blackmagic Speed Test and AmorphousDiskMark are both universal apps so they should be ok. AJA System Test Lite hasn't been updated in three years.

A workaround is to connect the drive to a Thunderbolt dock. Has anyone tested that?

The M1 Macs can get over 2000 MB/s with a Thunderbolt drive so there's no problem there. I would be happier if someone showed a number in the 2700 MB/s range (up to 2800 MB/s using AmorphousDiskMark SEQ1M QD8).

With my gen2 Sandisk (upto1050) I get the higher speeds when connected to my Caldigit TS3+.

Be interesting to see how all this sorts out. It's not a big deal for me, but I'm sure it's impactful for others.
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,935
4,237
I just got an OWC Envoy Express with their recommend M.2NVME 1TB SSD. I don't get their specified 1553 speed, but on both my M1 MBA & my 2020 27" iMac I get this:

I'm well please with it!
Can you show how they gimped it with a PCIe 3.0 x2 connection using a screenshot of the PCI information from System Information.app?
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,935
4,237
Other Thunderbolt NVMe enclosures have link width x4, but with Thunderbolt, that does not double the bandwidth from x2 (1553 MB/s) - the max is 2800 MB/s which is only 80% better than link width x2.

The OWC Envoy Express claims to be the first Thunderbolt certified bus-powered "add your own drive" enclosure. They could not get it certified with x4? I guess x2 uses less power. Does this mean all other bus-powered Thunderbolt NVMe enclosures (at least all of them that are x4) are not certified? Does it matter if they work?
 
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psiglin

macrumors newbie
Dec 13, 2020
1
1
My OWC Mercury Elite Pro Dual Mini is only doing 5gb so 380 read and about the same for write. The port is USB 3.1 Gen 2 so its suppose to do 10GB but the M1 is only showing it as a 5GB connection. Hopefully this is a firmware issue?
 
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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,935
4,237
One thing interesting in this screenshot is the super low PCIe bus number 3 for the slot. The M1 Macs don't use many PCIe devices. Most of the devices are integrated in the M1.

In fact, the M1 Macs have three PCIe devices at address 0:0:0 meaning they are all on separate PCIe buses (segments? or PCIe trees):
1) Bluetooth/Ethernet
2) Thunderbolt bus 1 with 128 PCIe buses (why not 255 PCIe buses? if it were limited to 7 bits then the last bus number would be 127 instead of 128)
3) Thunderbolt bus 2 with 128 PCIe buses

No other PCIe devices exist in M1 Macs except what you connect to Thunderbolt. The M1 Macs have 128 PCIe bus numbers for each Thunderbolt bus. That's the most of any Mac because most Macs only have one PCIe tree and many bus numbers are used up by builtin PCIe devices. The M1 Macs have a separate PCIe tree for each Thunderbolt port. A Thunderbolt device takes between 3 and 7 PCIe bus numbers. Besides PCIe bus numbers, there are other PCIe related resources required for each PCIe device which may limit the number of devices allowed.

It would take about 21 or 22 Thunderbolt docks (e.g. the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock uses 6 bus numbers: upstream, downstream, two USB controllers, FireWire, Ethernet) to use all the PCIe bus numbers but you can only have 6 deep for Thunderbolt (5 for USB4 but the USB4 registers have room for 7?). Therefore you would need to use Thunderbolt 4 docks with multiple downstream buses. OWC has one such Thunderbolt 4 dock. It has 3 downstream Thunderbolt ports. However it could be using only USB devices so it might only be using 3 PCIe bus numbers (upstream, downstream, USB controller). In that case, it would take 43 of them (or the smaller OWC Thunderbolt Hub which also has just USB with three downstream Thunderbolt ports). Or 8 of them and 15 regular Thunderbolt docks (at the end of a chain, add one bus number for the empty Thunderbolt port, which makes 7 bus numbers for the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock).
 

Anonymous Freak

macrumors 603
Original poster
Dec 12, 2002
5,600
1,377
Cascadia
Thunderbolt SSDs would not be impacted by this issue at all, because they connect using Thunderbolt's PCIe connection, rather than the USB connection.
 

Sarpanch

macrumors regular
Jan 12, 2013
137
124
SoCal
Updated M1 Mac Mini to Big Sur 11.1. Unfortunately, USB issues are not resolved. Also, Apple Support says their engineering team is still looking into this to check if its a bug or “expected behavior” :confused:
 
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InBruges

macrumors newbie
Nov 25, 2012
16
3
United Kingdom
I just got an M1 MacBook Air and a new Samsung T7.
The T7 is formatted APFS, and is showing a 10 GB/s connection in System Report.

Black Magic Disk Speed Tests are as follows:

T7 connected using it's included cable to my 16-Inch i9 MacBook Pro: Around 900 MB/sWrite and 900 MB/s Read.

T7 connected using it's included cable to my M1 MacBook Air: Around 420 MB/s Write and 420 MB/s Read.


Separate issue, but possibly connected. I have a Hyperdrive (original model), when I connect the T7 to the Hyperdrive USB 3.1 GEN2 port attached to my 16 Inch MBP, I get similar speeds I'm seeing on the M1 MacBook Air. (Around 400 MB/s).


Update: I just performed another Black Magic Speed Test on the M1 MacBook Air after leaving the T7 connected for a while (it will have cooled down but didn't feed very hot anyway), now getting around 650 - 700 MB/s on the M1 MacBook Air, read and write. Even when warm though, I was consistently seeing around 900 on the 16 inch Intel MacBook Pro
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,466
6,563
US
I just got an M1 MacBook Air and a new Samsung T7.
The T7 is formatted APFS, and is showing a 10 GB/s connection in System Report.

Black Magic Disk Speed Tests are as follows:

T7 connected using it's included cable to my 16-Inch i9 MacBook Pro: Around 900 MB/sWrite and 900 MB/s Read.

T7 connected using it's included cable to my M1 MacBook Air: Around 420 MB/s Write and 420 MB/s Read.


Separate issue, but possibly connected. I have a Hyperdrive (original model), when I connect the T7 to the Hyperdrive USB 3.1 GEN2 port attached to my 16 Inch MBP, I get similar speeds I'm seeing on the M1 MacBook Air. (Around 400 MB/s).


Update: I just performed another Black Magic Speed Test on the M1 MacBook Air after leaving the T7 connected for a while (it will have cooled down but didn't feed very hot anyway), now getting around 680 MB/s on the M1 MacBook Air, read and write. Even when warm though, I was consistently seeing around 900 on the 16 inch Intel MacBook Pro
Interesting.

My Sandisk Extreme (gen2) gets substantially better performance on my M1 MBP, but it varies by how its connected in ways that shouldn't necessarily cause variance. Only other thing connected is a 27" QHD monitor via DisplayPort.

Directly attached to the MBP:

Screen Shot 2020-12-21 at 8.04.03 AM.png


Attached to my Caldigit TS3+ Thunderbolt port:

Screen Shot 2020-12-21 at 8.08.38 AM.png


Attached to my Caldigit TS3+ 10Gbps USB3 port:

Screen Shot 2020-12-21 at 8.11.27 AM.png
 
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