USB on M1 Macs isn't actually 10Gb/s? (Also definitely not USB4)

[burgman]

I just plugged in a Samsung T7 to my M1 MBP and it's reporting 10Gb/s

Black magic disk speed test reports ~103 write and ~760 read

I just set my M1 up, I use a T7 for my iTunes library, same 10Gb/s interface for me. However neither T5 or T7 is capable of 10Gb/s speeds. So why care what connection speed is shown?
"The T5 has a sequential read speed of up to 540 MB per second in addition to a sequential write speed of up to 520 MB per second. The T7 and T7 Touch have a sequential read speed of up to 1,050 MB per second (a 94.44% increase over the T5) and sequential write speed of up to 1,000 MB per second (a 92.31% increase from the T5)."

 

[joevt]

A workaround is to connect the drive to a Thunderbolt dock. Has anyone tested that?

Yes:

With my gen2 Sandisk (upto1050) I get the higher speeds when connected to my Caldigit TS3+.

Be interesting to see how all this sorts out. It's not a big deal for me, but I'm sure it's impactful for others.

My Sandisk Extreme (gen2) gets substantially better performance on my M1 MBP, but it varies by how its connected in ways that shouldn't necessarily cause variance. Only other thing connected is a 27" QHD monitor via DisplayPort.

Write/Read
Directly attached to the MBP: 839/690
Attached to my Caldigit TS3+ Thunderbolt port: 912/759
Attached to my Caldigit TS3+ 10Gbps USB3 port: 595/635

Different controllers have different performance. That is the cause of the variance.

• Alpine Ridge Thunderbolt USB controller: 912 MB/s (this controller is the fastest of the ones you have)
• M1 USB4/Thunderbolt USB controller: 839 MB/s (this controller needs a better driver or a better implementation)
• ASMedia ASM1142 USB controller: 635 MB/s (this controller is limited by the 8 Gbps PCIe connection - check the PCI tab in System Information.app to make sure I'm talking about the correct controller).

I just set my M1 up, I use a T7 for my iTunes library, same 10Gb/s interface for me. However neither T5 or T7 is capable of 10Gb/s speeds. So why care what connection speed is shown?
"The T5 has a sequential read speed of up to 540 MB per second in addition to a sequential write speed of up to 520 MB per second. The T7 and T7 Touch have a sequential read speed of up to 1,050 MB per second (a 94.44% increase over the T5) and sequential write speed of up to 1,000 MB per second (a 92.31% increase from the T5)."

Because USB gen 1 (5 Gbps) limits the speed from 540 or 1050 MB/s down to 400 or 450 MB/s. You answered your own question with the info for the T5 and especially the T7. If you meant it to be rhetorical then there should have been a "because" in front of the quote.

 

[InBruges]

I just set my M1 up, I use a T7 for my iTunes library, same 10Gb/s interface for me. However neither T5 or T7 is capable of 10Gb/s speeds. So why care what connection speed is shown?
"The T5 has a sequential read speed of up to 540 MB per second in addition to a sequential write speed of up to 520 MB per second. The T7 and T7 Touch have a sequential read speed of up to 1,050 MB per second (a 94.44% increase over the T5) and sequential write speed of up to 1,000 MB per second (a 92.31% increase from the T5)."

The reason I care what connection speed is show Is because I've paid £160 for the T7 specifically for it's high read / write speed as I'm a pro creator and work with huge files.

My old T5 isn't much slower than the T7 when connected to the M1 Mac, and I've had it for years.

Seeing lots of reports now of people with the same issue - Much slower data speed when connected to M1 Macs, compared to Intel Macs

Hoping Apple can address this in an update.

This M1 MacBook Air is specifically for traveling light and working on the road, if I add a thunderbolt dock to the equation to get the proper speed from the T7 (or similar) SSD, it will defeat the object and double the weight of the laptop.

 

[Sarpanch]

Installed Big Sur 11.2 Public Beta on the M1 Mac Mini. No luck. The two issues still persist

1) Some USB 3.1 Gen 2 devices still connecting at 5Gb/s link speed
2) Some USB 3.1 Gen 2 devices connecting at 10Gb/s link speed but with ~20% reduced max speed.

 

[Pressure]

Isn't the biggest problem whether the used NVMe SSD has single sided NAND flash chips or on both sides of the PCB?

 

[Bob_DM]

That is a SATA SSD and you would only get 500 MB/s maximum. Maybe its doing intelligent bus speed? SATA SSD would only need 6Gbps max, 5Gbps realistically.

If my memory serves, 860 evo is a 2.5 inch SSD.. Those will always be limited to like 500 read/500 write no matter how you plug them in. Even plugged directly into a SATA port inside a windows machine those have limited bandwidth. If you want more speed than that you have to get a PCIe NVME drive and put it in an enclosure to get 2,000+ speeds

I got around 1500 read/write with evo860 in owc thunderbolt 3 case but with 4 drives in Raid 0 ?.
Still half speed internal SSD and as pricey as Apple upgrade ...?.

 

[DeanL]

I also have speed problems.
My drive (Orico NVMe enclosure PCM2-C3 + Intel 660P Series) performs about 250 MB/s faster when connected to the Thunderbolt/USB port of my LG UltraFine 4K compared to when it's plugged directly on my M1 Mac...

 

[deeddawg]

Isn't the biggest problem whether the used NVMe SSD has single sided NAND flash chips or on both sides of the PCB?

Pretty sure that won't cause it to be faster on an Intel MBP than an M1 MBP...

 

[joevt]

Different controllers have different performance. That is the cause of the variance.

• Alpine Ridge Thunderbolt USB controller: 912 MB/s (this controller is the fastest of the ones you have)
• M1 USB4/Thunderbolt USB controller: 839 MB/s (this controller needs a better driver or a better implementation)
• ASMedia ASM1142 USB controller: 635 MB/s (this controller is limited by the 8 Gbps PCIe connection - check the PCI tab in System Information.app to make sure I'm talking about the correct controller).

I also have speed problems.
My drive (Orico NVMe enclosure PCM2-C3 + Intel 660P Series) performs about 250 MB/s faster when connected to the Thunderbolt/USB port of my LG UltraFine 4K compared to when it's plugged directly on my M1 Mac...

The new LG UltraFine 4K has Titan Ridge Thunderbolt USB controller which has similar speed to Alpine Ridge. Basically, any USB 3.1 gen 2 controller is going to be faster than the controller of the M1 unless the controller is limited to PCIe 3.0 x1 or PCIe 2.0 x2 like the ASMedia ASM1142. The newer ASMedia chips (ASM2142 and ASM3142) should have good performance too.

 

[LuftBox]

I am getting very unstable results, ranging from 480-900-2200 Mbps write speed.
MacBook Air M1, std basic configuration
Nvme: Sabrent Rocket 1 TB
Case: Orico M2PV-C3 (Realtek RTL9210)
EDIT: Wrongly selected the internal drive, now posting External Case Results which is NOT a thunderbolt 3 enclosure BUT USB C Gen2 10Gbps

Seems power plugged in or not doesn't make a difference. I thought the chipset was power hungry and messed up with the port(s) power management. Might give a look on the chipset firmware to see if results get more stable.

 

[ght56]

Different controllers have different performance. That is the cause of the variance.

• Alpine Ridge Thunderbolt USB controller: 912 MB/s (this controller is the fastest of the ones you have)
• M1 USB4/Thunderbolt USB controller: 839 MB/s (this controller needs a better driver or a better implementation)
• ASMedia ASM1142 USB controller: 635 MB/s (this controller is limited by the 8 Gbps PCIe connection - check the PCI tab in System Information.app to make sure I'm talking about the correct controller).

Forgive my stupidity here, but why is the SanDisk Extreme Pro, a non-Thunderbolt-USB device, working with a downstream Thunderbolt port on a dock using the Alpine Ridge chipset? I was under the impression that only a Titan Ridge chipset would work with (non-Thunderbolt) USB devices? Is this because that specific SSD supports PCIe over USB?

 

[joevt]

Forgive my stupidity here, but why is the SanDisk Extreme Pro, a non-Thunderbolt-USB device, working with a downstream Thunderbolt port on a dock using the Alpine Ridge chipset? I was under the impression that only a Titan Ridge chipset would work with (non-Thunderbolt) USB devices? Is this because that specific SSD supports PCIe over USB?

The downstream Thunderbolt 3 port of a Thunderbolt host (whether from Alpine Ridge, Titan Ridge, Ice Lake, Tiger Lake, or M1) or Thunderbolt peripheral supports Thunderbolt or USB devices. They also support DisplayPort alt mode adapters and cables. And also USB + DisplayPort alt mode USB-C hubs and docks.

A Thunderbolt 3 device with Titan Ridge has an upstream Thunderbolt 3 port that can be connected to USB (host or hub) or Thunderbolt (host or dock/peripheral).

A Thunderbolt 3 device with Alpine Ridge has an upstream Thunderbolt 3 port than can be connected only to a Thunderbolt host or dock/peripheral.

See the AKiTiO Thunder3 Duo Pro - it was one of the first Thunderbolt 3 devices which means it uses Alpine Ridge to connect to Thunderbolt, but it also has a USB 3.0 Type B port to connect to USB. If it used Titan Ridge, then that USB port would not be necessary.

The SSD does not support PCIe over USB - there's no such thing (unless you mean PCIe over USB4 which is basically PCIe over Thunderbolt).
A USB SSD has a USB to NVMe bridge chip or USB to SATA bridge chip. It converts USB mass storage protocol to the protocol of the SSD (SATA AHCI or NVMe). Is there a USB to PCIe AHCI bridge chip?

 

[joevt]

I am getting very unstable results, ranging from 480-900-2200 Mbps write speed.
MacBook Air M1, std basic configuration
Nvme: Sabrent Rocket 1 TB
Case: Orico M2PV-C3 (Realtek RTL9210)
View attachment 1699454

Seems power plugged in or not doesn't make a difference. I thought the chipset was power hungry and messed up with the port(s) power management. Might give a look on the chipset firmware to see if results get more stable.

I did some Thunderbolt NVMe tests with a Mac mini 2018. Some tests started out slow but eventually sped up.

Thunderbolt 3 M.2 NVMe SSD Enclosures

umm is that "Sabrent Rocket XTRM-Q" item featuring the same enclosure as their tool-free aluminum enclosure? ( https://www.amazon.com/Thunderbolt-Certified-Tool-Free-Enclosure-EC-T3NS/dp/B08FT59SB6 ). Because I got the latter plus a sabrent NVME drive and while it works with thunderbolt 3, I...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[ght56]

The downstream Thunderbolt 3 port of a Thunderbolt host (whether from Alpine Ridge, Titan Ridge, Ice Lake, Tiger Lake, or M1) or Thunderbolt peripheral supports Thunderbolt or USB devices. They also support DisplayPort alt mode adapters and cables. And also USB + DisplayPort alt mode USB-C hubs and docks.

A Thunderbolt 3 device with Titan Ridge has an upstream Thunderbolt 3 port that can be connected to USB (host or hub) or Thunderbolt (host or dock/peripheral).

A Thunderbolt 3 device with Alpine Ridge has an upstream Thunderbolt 3 port than can be connected only to a Thunderbolt host or dock/peripheral.

See the AKiTiO Thunder3 Duo Pro - it was one of the first Thunderbolt 3 devices which means it uses Alpine Ridge to connect to Thunderbolt, but it also has a USB 3.0 Type B port to connect to USB. If it used Titan Ridge, then that USB port would not be necessary.

The SSD does not support PCIe over USB - there's no such thing (unless you mean PCIe over USB4 which is basically PCIe over Thunderbolt).
A USB SSD has a USB to NVMe bridge chip or USB to SATA bridge chip. It converts USB mass storage protocol to the protocol of the SSD (SATA AHCI or NVMe). Is there a USB to PCIe AHCI bridge chip?

You are a wealth of knowledge.

I did not realize the downstream TB3 ports on hubs supported USB regardless of their chipset. I assumed the downstream ports on docks followed the same rule as the upstream port for some reason (my TB3 dock with an Alpine chip does not work with USB-C computer, whereas my TB3 dock with Titan does--I figured the downstream TB3 port mirrored those same rules.) This is what led to my confusion...I am not sure why I never realized that.

I see now that SSD is a USB 3.2 gen 2x2 device and not a USB 4 one.

 

[joevt]

I see now that SSD is a USB 3.2 gen 2x2 device and not a USB 4 one.

Which SSD? The SanDisk Extreme Pro? Do you have a link?
I see this one:

Western Digital Unveils USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 SanDisk Extreme PRO Portable SSD v2

www.anandtech.com

<p>SanDisk Extreme PRO Portable SSD V2 USB-C, USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 External SSD</p> | Western Digital

From the brand trusted by professional photographers worldwide, the SanDisk Extreme PRO® Portable SSD provides powerful solid state performance in a rugged, dependable storage solution. Nearly 2x as fast as our previous generation!

shop.westerndigital.com

USB 3.2 gen 2x2 is 20 Gbps. I have not seen anyone get gen 2x2 in macOS yet. I don't think any Macs have a gen 2x2 capable USB host controller. You would have to put such a host (e.g. Ableconn PEX-UB159 which uses the ASMedia ASM3242 ) controller in a Thunderbolt PCIe expansion chassis or a Mac Pro PCIe slot.

There's a USB 3.2 gen 2x2 section in the post at: #1
but nothing's been tested yet.

 

[BeatCrazy]

I am getting very unstable results, ranging from 480-900-2200 Mbps write speed.
MacBook Air M1, std basic configuration
Nvme: Sabrent Rocket 1 TB
Case: Orico M2PV-C3 (Realtek RTL9210)
EDIT: Wrongly selected the internal drive, now posting External Case Results which is NOT a thunderbolt 3 enclosure BUT USB C Gen2 10Gbps
View attachment 1699905
View attachment 1699906

Seems power plugged in or not doesn't make a difference. I thought the chipset was power hungry and messed up with the port(s) power management. Might give a look on the chipset firmware to see if results get more stable.

I’m also using a case/enclosure with the Realtek RTL9210, and getting slightly better speeds. Have you tried a different USB cable? Better yet, a TB3 cable?

 

[LuftBox]

I’m also using a case/enclosure with the Realtek RTL9210, and getting slightly better speeds. Have you tried a different USB cable? Better yet, a TB3 cable?

Well, looking at those TB3 Cable prices, I'll probably jump ship in the future and get a Tb3 CASE; IMHO the 'slightly better speed' vs price is not really worth it.
You RTL9210 is the std or the upgraded RTL9210b? are u on a Mac M1 or on an Intel controller one?

 

[BeatCrazy]

Well, looking at those TB3 Cable prices, I'll probably jump ship in the future and get a Tb3 CASE; IMHO the 'slightly better speed' vs price is not really worth it.
You RTL9210 is the std or the upgraded RTL9210b? are u on a Mac M1 or on an Intel controller one?

How do I tell if I have the "b" version?

 

[LuftBox]

How do I tell if I have the "b" version?

You should check in the Mac sys info (click on the apple and open drop down Hardware menu down to the USB)
Or tell us which brand/model enclosure u have.

 

[BeatCrazy]

You should check in the Mac sys info (click on the apple and open drop down Hardware menu down to the USB)
Or tell us which brand/model enclosure u have.

This is what mine shows. It's a Maiwo enclosure. I'm starting to get a little frustrated with it, as it's not always recognized when I plug it in. After a reboot, it always shows up. I have it directly connected to the TB port on the M1 mini with a Belkin TB3 cable.

 

[LuftBox]

This is what mine shows. It's a Maiwo enclosure. I'm starting to get a little frustrated with it, as it's not always recognized when I plug it in. After a reboot, it always shows up. I have it directly connected to the TB port on the M1 mini with a Belkin TB3 cable.

I got mostly exactly same spec as u found.
Does the behavior happens only on the Apple M1?? Because I am starting to question whether the enclusure/RTL chipset/cable are NOT guilty of the erratic behaviour

 

[BeatCrazy]

I got mostly exactly same spec as u found.
Does the behavior happens only on the Apple M1?? Because I am starting to question whether the enclusure/RTL chipset/cable are NOT guilty of the erratic behaviour

It seems to behave OK on Intel-based Macs, but I have only hooked it up to my Intel Macs a few times.

 

[timerickson]

I'm having the same issue with an external enclosure that uses the ASM1352R-Fast, but my issue is in the Early 2020 Intel Macbook Air. The same enclosure works at 10Gbps connected to a 2019 Mac Pro

 

[MGLXP]

For my M1 MacBook Air, my RTL9210 based external SSD enclosure performs faster when attached to the USB3.1 10GBps port of a Plugable Thunderbolt 3 enclosure. First pic is the speed when attached to the TB3 enclosure, second pic is the speed when attached the M1 Mac directly.

 

[Sarpanch]

Has anyone received any update from Apple on these issues? Yesterday, I was transferred from Apple Support to Apple Care team who are supposedly working closely with Hardware Engineering team. They collected System Diagnostic and some additional information once again from the M1 Mac. Although, I am not sure what’s keeping them from testing an Intel Mac and M1 Mac with a Samsung T5 as the problem is quite easy to replicate with that setup ?