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usarioclave

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2003
1,447
1,506
So the whole plane would go to the scrap heap because it may have an unauthorised TV screen installed on one of the seats? Talk about hyperbole

Well actually, there are claims that you can take over the plane's control systems via the in-flight entertainment system. Whether those are true or not are unclear, but if I was an airline and found an unauthorized screen attached to a plane I'd be sure to scrap the whole in-flight entertainment system at the very least. If there was no way to ensure the integrity of the in-flight control system after that then yes, all that would go as well. If there was no way to replace the flight control system from end-to-end the plane would be removed from the fleet and sent back to the leasing company.

So it's not really hyperbole, it just sounds that way when you don't think it through.

As an airline, would you want to absorb the risk from unauthorized components? Maybe if you're aeroflot.
 

MH01

Suspended
Feb 11, 2008
12,107
9,297
Do you even know what you're talking about? Jailbreaking is simply rooting, something ANY Android phone can do without effort. Apple is smart enough to say that's not a good idea. And it's not. And the vast majority of Apple users do not. There is no compelling need to at all.

Nonsense . Vast majority of android users do not root . You can root on an android and jailbreak on an iPhone . Apple has not stopped jail breaking since the first iPhone, so don't make out like they are proactive against it, cause if they are, they are failing very badly, every iOS update!
 

Muzzakus

macrumors 6502
May 23, 2011
477
716
Well actually, there are claims that you can take over the plane's control systems via the in-flight entertainment system. Whether those are true or not are unclear, but if I was an airline and found an unauthorized screen attached to a plane I'd be sure to scrap the whole in-flight entertainment system at the very least. If there was no way to ensure the integrity of the in-flight control system after that then yes, all that would go as well. If there was no way to replace the flight control system from end-to-end the plane would be removed from the fleet and sent back to the leasing company.

So it's not really hyperbole, it just sounds that way when you don't think it through.

As an airline, would you want to absorb the risk from unauthorized components? Maybe if you're aeroflot.

You've just proven my point. You isolate and remedy, not throw out the baby with the bath water. Which is what Apple is doing in this instance, and getting applauded for it by some.
 
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MH01

Suspended
Feb 11, 2008
12,107
9,297
This leads down a very sad path of either getting your device repaired by apple authorised dealers, or else apple can lock your device down.

Interesting reading for some lawyers and apple T&cs.

Most of my apple gear is old school, gear that has been upgraded , if apple were to release a version of iOS or OS X that disabled the machine cause I decided to user ram or HDD that were not apple overpriced parts, I'd be very unhappy.

Apple need to take into account , that there are users that do not use touchid.

I don't agree with any scenario, where a company can Brick a device with a software update , without a warning. Before the user accepts the update , they need to be informed of the consequences.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
So disable Touch ID. No problem without. But to brick the phone?
No fingerprint, no access to private data. That's exactly how Touch ID is supposed to work. The phone is not bricked, it's secured. It wouldn't be very secure, if it worked with the wrong sensor or would disable itself after installing a false sensor.
 

MH01

Suspended
Feb 11, 2008
12,107
9,297
Well actually, there are claims that you can take over the plane's control systems via the in-flight entertainment system. Whether those are true or not are unclear, but if I was an airline and found an unauthorized screen attached to a plane I'd be sure to scrap the whole in-flight entertainment system at the very least. If there was no way to ensure the integrity of the in-flight control system after that then yes, all that would go as well. If there was no way to replace the flight control system from end-to-end the plane would be removed from the fleet and sent back to the leasing company.

So it's not really hyperbole, it just sounds that way when you don't think it through.

As an airline, would you want to absorb the risk from unauthorized components? Maybe if you're aeroflot.

Wrong scenario.

Imagine your mister X, your just bought a plane from Boeing. You than repair an entertainerment panel on you plane with a 50% cheaper LCD, Boeing software update identifies the non authorised panel, and kills the plane, leaving it dead. So having spent 20 million on the jet, which you cannot now use, are you going to be cool with it?

What gives Boeing the right to shutdown your plane , which you bought?

The problem here is communication .
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No fingerprint, no access to private data. That's exactly how Touch ID is supposed to work. The phone is not bricked, it's secured. It wouldn't be very secure, if it worked with the wrong sensor or would disable itself after installing a false sensor.

Problem is that touchid is an "optional" feature. You need to opt in. The alternative is a password.
 
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l.a.rossmann

macrumors 65816
May 15, 2009
1,096
372
Brooklyn
The iPhone 5S has the same TouchID feature as the iPhone 6.

The iPhone 5S does not brick upon updating the phone if a new home button is installed.

There are no known cases ever of TouchID being hacked on the 5S.

You are all drinking the kool aid. Wake up and do some real research before repeating the BS some blog or tech press person tells you. If you sweat and touch the home button Apple will tell you $300 for a new phone, after a six day wait to get an appointment at the genius bar(assuming there is a genius bar in your country). We live in a free country and part of that is having alternatives to this ONE single ridiculous option.
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If the OS would reject the repair right away instead of waiting for an OS update to lock up, then I would believe this is a security issue.

Exactly. This is all BS. If this were truly for security, it would brick upon first boot. Do keep in mind the 5S doesn't brick at all.
 

l.a.rossmann

macrumors 65816
May 15, 2009
1,096
372
Brooklyn
How can this be a safety feature if it only activates after an OS update?

This is the question no one is bothering to answer. Also the question I've been proposing for over eight months now... why no bricking of the 5S?
[doublepost=1454719855][/doublepost]
Mysterious? I don't think so. If it breaks, take it to an Apple Store. If you're not near one, contact AppleCare.
There are a lot of people in this world that don't feel like mailing their phone away to have a button serviced. Or making an appointment a week in advance, waiting in line for an hour, when there is a place that will do the same job with no appointment/wait/mailing in under 10 minutes.

A lot will throw third parties under the bus.. I'm a third party. Did you know the 2010 Macbook Pro that apple were replacing GPUs on in 2012-2013 doesn't go bad because of the GPU, but because of tantalum cap being used on PP1V8R1V55_S0GPU_ISNS_R line instead of polymer film or ceramic? They ran out of space and got stuck using tantalum... same with 2008/2009 on PP1V05_S5_MCP. Apple didn't know that in 2008,or 2009,didn't learn for the 2010 design, and didn't figure a damn thing out until it was all obsolete! My point here, first party repair can be snarky towards third party repair, third party repair can be snarky towards first party repair, but it doesn't really fix anything.

In the end, that back and forth just results in more loss and inconvenience for the actual consumer, which is all error 53 really will lead to.

If the button is changed, destroy touchid. I get that. Bricking the phone nine months later for "security reasons" is just kinda BS. You brick it immediately for security reasons, you brick it nine months from now for planned obsolescence.
 

Tjex

macrumors member
Dec 17, 2012
43
42
And what of the peoplev that didn' use finger prints and just pin and now have a briked phone?

Wait until apple bricks our phones for not using an approved digitiser.

Apple should just rent phones, not sell them.
 

l.a.rossmann

macrumors 65816
May 15, 2009
1,096
372
Brooklyn
And they do to Authorized repair centers. The repairs in question are being done by unauthorized repair centers.
For the longest time Apple told authorized repair centers they can't even replace cracked iPhone screens. Unauthorized facilities aren't allowed to buy parts. I can probably tell you more about repairing Apple products than the people who designed them and yet my company isn't qualified to purchase an iPhone screen that a monkey can install.

It's a racket.

It is what it is, but it is important to be honest about it!

They will hide behind security and people will keep parroting that answer, but it's BS. You brick a device to maintain security immediately, you brick it maybe nine months later to get them to buy a new one.
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I think you are overreacting. When our entire lives are on a phone - security must be an important aspect. And as mentioned below you don't need an Apple store. You need an Apple authorized repair shop that theoretically has reason to not cheap out and use those new cheap sensors from an unknown source that also sends all your data off at some point or sends the credentials fro your finger print to a third party ETC. Just calm down and think about how best to safeguard tight stuff. This isn't an outrageous situation.

This is a good quote. I don't mean to pick on you, but this shows the ignorance of the people who read these articles. It sucks that more people don't know how it is.

If I wrote Apple a check for $50,000 right now, they wouldn't give me one fingerprint sensor.

I see that for the most part third party repair centers are being vilified for, what is perceived to be, us taking crap from a dumpster and putting into people's phones rather then spending a little bit more money for "the good stuff." That isn't remotely close to the truth.

The reality is that there is no option for us to do things "the right way."
 
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dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,193
1,829
Why?

If my iPhone is out of warranty, then I should be able to have it repaired by who ever I want.

I can see why it might be a good thing to avoid circumventing the security on stolen phones, but from a user standpoint who wants a repair, apple repairs aren't exactly the cheapest, or in the UK and other countries where apple stores are only in big cities, its a pain in the rear not being able to take it to a local phone shop.
I can see both sides, but agree, they don't have to brick it, they could warn you.
 

69Mustang

macrumors 604
Jan 7, 2014
7,895
15,044
In between a rock and a hard place
1. Nonsense. A "shadetree mechanic" is a common terminology used for someone who does repairs without the requisite training. I don't really care if you don't like the tone of my comment. It doesn't change the facts one way or the other. The guy went to an unauthorized/untrained repair shop. The voided warranty and UA are not red herrings. There are very much central to the story. They are agreements specifically broken when the user chooses to have the device repaired by an unauthorized/untrained repair person. By breaking those agreements, the user has de-obligated the manufacturer. This is common practice for most devices you might own. The difference in this case is that after voiding those things, the user went back to the manufacturer for further service (in the form of a software update), expecting the manufacturer to still be obligated by the same agreements the user has already broken. That brings us to the next point.
First point. I never made a comment about the tone of your quote. Me liking/disliking the quote is immaterial to my response. You're still introducing your own evidence to force a narrative. Characterizing the tech as a shadetree presumes he had no requisite training. You don't know that. The guy went to an unauthorized repair shop. You introduced the untrained part, still reinforcing the narrative you've created. Yep they're still red herrings, but I do agree they're central to the story. The one you've created. Not the one in the article. Afaik, the guy made no claims that brought into question the UA or the warranty. He complained about not being warned the update would brick his phone. That's it. Bolded portion I will address below.

2. How do you go about requesting a software update? You respond in the affirmative by clicking the 'software update' button on the phone's screen (or in iTunes on a device tethered to the phone). The next thing you have to click in order to proceed is 'I Agree' button for the User Agreement, which once again warns about unauthorized hacking of hardware or software. The user broke the previous UA with the visit to the unauthorized repair shop. The user then repeats the same violation by clicking 'I Agree' to a fresh UA with the same prohibitions.
No one requests an update. I've never done it and you've never done it either. To continue using the word request in relation to software updates is just plain obstinate. Neither request nor any of it's many synonyms will help you arrive at the meaning you describe above. From your point 1: You're kidding. I know for a fact you're kidding. That description in no way, shape, or form resembles a software update. That thing you said about the UA? Not true either. Here's the UA: http://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/appstore/dev/stdeula/ Hardware is a warranty issue. Software is covered differently. Since they guy did nothing with software, it's immaterial. Another red herring.

3. The user was tempting fate. He was lucky that the device worked at all after the repair by the unauthorized shop. That fact does not obligate the manufacturer to assure that the device will continue to function with further updates. The manufacturer apparently included in the code for the update a check to confirm the validity and security of the phone's hardware. In this case, the phone failed the check, because it did indeed have unauthorized tinkering in what is supposed to be the most secure part of the device.
Fate, luck, kismet, or the skill of the repairman. His phone worked. You're 100% right. It doesn't obligate the manufacture to assure updates won't brick a phone. No one claimed that expectation either. Certainly not the guy in the story. Another element introduced by you.

4. There was perhaps some snark, but no disingenuousness in this point. You refer repeatedly to the warranty in this part, but I didn't refer to the warranty in this point at all. I only referred to the UA. You ask "Why would there be an assumption that a repaired phones that works properly would be bricked by an update?" I can only respond to that with a similar question. Why would there be an assumption that a phone that has been repaired in violation of the manufacturer's terms that the manufacturer would be obligated to continue to provide software updates and guaranteed continued functionality?
I repeatedly referred to the warranty because it's a hardware issue that is under the auspices of the warranty. Which you can view here: http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/ios-warranty-document-us.html
Bolded. This is why I said your comment was disingenuous. There was no assumption the manufacturer would be obligated to provide updates. Framing the update process in this manner is disingenuous. Me, you, and anyone who's owned an iPhone knows that's a completely inaccurate description of how updates occur.

I obviously have a different perspective from you on the facts of the case, but I didn't create any new facts, as you claimed. Thanks for playing, though.
True, we do have different perspectives on the facts. And no you didn't create any new facts, nor did I claim that. I said you created evidence to support your version of the narrative. Facts and evidence are not the same thing. They can't be used interchangeably. Well they can; just shouldn't be. Just like your definition of request.

Thank you for thanking me for playing. Since it's still my turn...
"Well Drew, since the other contestant waaaaaaay overbid his hand, I'm just going to bid $1." :D
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,910
24,916
Gotta be in it to win it
Does Apple realize that people call 911 in case of emergency?
If your battery dies, you can't dial 911. If you drop your phone and the screen is inoperative can't be used either. So yes you can use your phone to call 911 provided it is working.

On one hand, based on the information in the article, and not some of the hyperbole in the thread, it seems apple is being conservative with your information and IOS 9 has checks for this, which previous operating systems didn't. Should there be a breach resulting from this, apple would never live it down. Bad situation to be in.
 

Peepo

macrumors 65816
Jun 18, 2009
1,163
613
I'll ask again. What in my quote gave you impression I had an opinion about the bricking not being security related. Nothing in my quote even remotely suggests that.


Your post # 131

"In my mind, if it's about security, the replacement home button would cease to work immediately. That's security. Requiring an update to trigger the Error-53 really isn't."

If I misunderstood you then I am sorry. But the way you have it worded appears to me that you think this is not the result of a security patch.

Hypothetical here:
What if there was a potential vulnerability in 3rd party touch ID buttons or the interface they connect to that Apple overlooked, and then they silently patched it in IOS 9??? This was the point I was trying to make - that simply changing the button prior to IOS would not have triggered the Error-53 because Apple did not patch it yet until IOS 9. When the user upgraded to IOS 9 (with presumed patch), and the new code in IOS 9 detected invalid hardware, it caused the bricking.

Anyways, I do not wish to argue this any further and again if I misunderstood you then I am sorry.
 

SusanK

macrumors 68000
Oct 9, 2012
1,676
2,655
If your battery dies, you can't dial 911. If you drop your phone and the screen is inoperative can't be used either. So yes you can use your phone to call 911 provided it is working.


If Apple intentionally bricks a device that is required to be useful for 911 calls is that OK?

Scenario. User B suffers severe chest pains and shortness of breath immediately after installing iOS update. Error 53 is displayed on the screen when his body is found.

This is good for Apple?
 
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Charadis

macrumors 65816
Jul 3, 2010
1,003
210
This is kind of like safes that disable themselves when they detect tampering. If someone is trying to break into my phone and they have the technology that could send a signal to emulate my finger print, I won't my phone to detect this and brick itself, so that no other type of tampering will allowed.

No no, it doesn't work that way. If the Touch ID is replaced, the phone will continue working and the button continues to function like a Home button. The user can still use the phone and unlock using the pin code. Fingerprint scan is disabled tho.

Only after a firmware update does the system prompt an error 53. Which doesn't make sense if the phone is still usable prior to updating after the repair.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,077
22,110
Honestly this is crazy. SINCE DAY ONE OF THE TOUCH ID IT'S BEEN KNOWN THAT TO ENSURE THE DEVICE REMAINS ENCRYPTED THE SECURE ENCLAVE AND TOUCH ID ARE PAIRED IN THE FACTORY.

This is BY DESIGN, discussed explicitly during the introduction specifically so that someone (authorities) couldn't just slip a modified sensor in to gain access.

The whole point of this was privacy, explicitly stated since day one of Touch ID.

Now does anyone think it's a bit funny that this "story" comes out (years after the introduction of Touch ID) at the exact same time that everyone from the states (california and New York) to the ****ing FBI are trying to ensure that the government has a way to access data as freely as they've been able to in the past?

This whole thing reeks.
 

CarlJ

Contributor
Feb 23, 2004
6,990
12,185
San Diego, CA, USA
"appears to be Apple ensuring only genuine components are being used for repairs."

No, Apple is doing everything they can to ensure that the security of the data on the device cannot be subverted. The most likely suspects for someone who would want to subvert the security on your phone isn't Dave down at the local electronics repair shop, it's a government - your's or some other one - who has temporarily come into session of your phone and would like to have a look at all your data without your permission. Either because they actually suspect you of something, or, statistically more likely, because "you don't have anything to hide, do you, comrade?"

Apple's not so much worried about a knockoff home button as they are about some ThreeLetterAcronym government organization who might want to hook a purpose-built hacking device onto the circuit board in place of an Apple-supplied TouchID sensor, to feed in false signals, in an attempt to get your gone to unlock. Since Apple won't play ball with them and put back doors in the encryption. Said organizations tend to view your privacy as a roadblock to their ability to grab data and go on "fishing expeditions".

I'm all for Apple doing everything they can to keep my devices secure.
 

jrlcopy

macrumors 6502a
Jun 20, 2007
554
894
FYI, there's actually a fix for this issue so unauthorized centers can make the repair. The person who did this guys iphone didn't know about the fix. So as long as the repair centers are up on the current apple hacks, they can replace it and it will all be totally fine.
 
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