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Here's the easy formula.

Intel Xeon W = literally E5-1600 v6 (if continue using former E5 model)
Higher clock speed and mainly for workstation.

Intel Xeon SP = literally E5-2600 v6 / E7 4000 / 8000 v6 (if continue using former E5 / E7 model)
Higher core counts, low clock speed, mainly for multi socket server / workstation.
To add insult to injury, it more confusing with gold/platinum/bronze model.

Intel name scheming are inconsistent in the best.

hahahah so true BMW used to make sense now not so much :)

now with the new i9 9900 to sound ripping but only supports 16 pci lanes its not really a i9 is it
fast yes for most a great chip for a workstation person looking to load up those lanes for whatever reason YIKES confusing
 
Hard to see a 7,1 without nVidia support being viable for creatives. Without media and entertainment customers I have trouble seeing sales numbers that would make sense.

While nVidia support would open up far more opportunities, there are creatives in media and entertainment who use Final Cut and Logic and those would be fine with AMD as the apps are optimized for them.

Also, Apple ProRes is widely used in the industry for broadcasting, streaming and physical media authoring so even if the content creation is done on nVidia-powered PCs, there could still be a place for a MacPro at the end of the chain to author that content.
 
Apple has offered extremely expensive systems before... The Mac IIfx (said to stand for "too f*&%^$@ expensive) cost from $9,000 on up in 1990 dollars, and some of the upper-end Quadra models were similarly priced a couple of years later. Due to inflation, these prices would be close to double today. The Quadra 950 had no less than 16 RAM slots, and fully populating them with the largest possible SIMMs was another $8000 (for 1/4 gigabyte of RAM). Higher-end SCSI drives could run as much as a couple of thousand dollars apiece. It was very possible to construct a IIfx or a Quadra that sold for $20,000 in the dollars of the time ($40,000 today).

The SGI workstations someone mentioned a few posts ago started at $15,000 or more, and could run over $100,000.

The Z-series that keep getting mentioned on here go up to $50,000 or more in certain configurations (a normal Z6 configuration is probably $10,000, but it's easy to go significantly higher). There are $100,000 dual-processor configurations of the Z8.

HP will sell you a Z8 for $2100, but it has a 1.7 gHz 6-core processor, 8 GB of RAM and a 1 TB hard drive (it's essentially a case, power supply and motherboard with some junk on it for users to replace themselves). Windows 10 (like OS X) performs much better with a SSD, so that cheap Z8 barely works at all.

Apple doesn't want you doing that, so they'll respond with a Mini with a 6-core 3.2 gHz processor, 16 GB of RAM, 10 GB Ethernet and a 1 TB SSD for less money. The Mini is a far more capable machine if you intend to actually use it as you bought it - what it doesn't allow is replacing every part that determines speed with whatever you want...

There are users who are hoping Apple will offer their own version of that $2100 Z8 - a barely usable cheap slotbox that they can stuff their favorite commodity PC hardware in. Apple hasn't made that machine since the PowerPC G3 era (when many of the parts weren't PC-compatible) - they don't want the support costs it entails, especially because it attracts games and gamers (who drive up support costs by running hardware close to the edge).

Apple's strategy has always been "anything you buy from us is a decent computer when you plug it in - you don't have to buy something else to make it work". They'll make a Z6-like Mac Pro, but they'll start it at a realistic configuration for a Z6 workflow.

The one real difference I can see between Apple's probable pricing on the Mac Pro and HP's on the Z-series is that Apple won't offer the very lowest-end "slotbox" configurations, and they'll probably not go to the insane heights the Z8 can reach. They'll probably start around $6500, equipped much like a $6500 Z6, and go up to $20,000 or perhaps somewhat more for configurations with huge amounts of RAM, expensive CPUs and GPUs, and/or massive SSD capacity.
 
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decided to build a dell workstation :)
figured that was enough at $43,654.13

could have gone higher :)

I used to do this when win fan boys said apples are to expensive and I would say so are dell :) cause the Xeon mac pros were workstation class machines :)

I can do the same $$$$ builds at HP etc..

I can get enough back to buy a mac mini :) WHHHEEEEEEE

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$6,500 gets me a 32 core/64 thread EYPC workstation 128Gb ram/8Gb WX5100.

Today, not some undetermined point in the future.

16 cores/32 thread EYPC for just over $4,000.

AMD has reset the market. There is no reason to waste money on Intel - they are now where AMD was a few years ago.

If Timmy has the brains of a goose, he’d go all in on AMD right now - Ryzen on the low end (mini & mobile), threadripper on the midrange & EYPC on the top.
 
$6,500 gets me a 32 core/64 thread EYPC workstation 128Gb ram/8Gb WX5100.

Today, not some undetermined point in the future.

16 cores/32 thread EYPC for just over $4,000.

AMD has reset the market. There is no reason to waste money on Intel - they are now where AMD was a few years ago.

If Timmy has the brains of a goose, he’d go all in on AMD right now - Ryzen on the low end (mini & mobile), threadripper on the midrange & EYPC on the top.
And throw T-Bolt under the bus? That would be hard.
 
$6,500 gets me a 32 core/64 thread EYPC workstation 128Gb ram/8Gb WX5100.

Today, not some undetermined point in the future.

16 cores/32 thread EYPC for just over $4,000.

AMD has reset the market. There is no reason to waste money on Intel - they are now where AMD was a few years ago.

If Timmy has the brains of a goose, he’d go all in on AMD right now - Ryzen on the low end (mini & mobile), threadripper on the midrange & EYPC on the top.


And throw T-Bolt under the bus? That would be hard.

It is already a fact that Thunderbolt is going 'open source', Intel is just dragging their feet about it...

Maybe the holdup on the new modular Mac Pro is just that, Intel slowing the works for Apple to have AMD CPUs & TB3...?
 
hahahah so true BMW used to make sense now not so much :)

now with the new i9 9900 to sound ripping but only supports 16 pci lanes its not really a i9 is it
fast yes for most a great chip for a workstation person looking to load up those lanes for whatever reason YIKES confusing

Yep, those chip is also hot as hell, too hot for "small socket" LGA1151. I wonder how apple cooling those hot chips in latest iMac. Both regular iMacs are well known for throttling, unable to sustain turbo frequencies for prolonged time. Apple can solve the problem with applying iMac Pro cooling system but it would drive more user hit the wall because it would sacrifice memory slot door, make all iMacs model completely sealed.

As for proper 40-48 PCI lanes, current option for customer grade option from intel is just Skylake-X (i7 7800X〜i9-7980XE), they also great for powerful hackintosh sporting equal or more in raw power standpoint, just missing some Xeon specific feature (ECC / max amount RAM).

Honestly, base iMac Pro is very competitive price, because it's very hard for consumer to access off shelf Xeon-W chips, even if I found some retailers they price is not practical, not counting proper C422 2066 socket motherboards. Unlike previous E5 v3-v4 chips, boxed / retail E5 chips are still easier to get at that time, and some consumer X99 boards also support both X99/C600 chipsets which can run all proper Xeon features.

iMac Pro at $5000 is steal, but I'm not fond of sealed system so yeah let me clinging to modified 2012 cheese grater longer (and Broadwell-EP hackintosh as support) until 7.1 released. Thanks to new 5,1 firmware it can match iMac Pro in some aspect (graphics / fast NVMe storage).
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If Timmy has the brains of a goose, he’d go all in on AMD right now - Ryzen on the low end (mini & mobile), threadripper on the midrange & EYPC on the top.

That's raised my question. Apple have access to Radeon graphics business, I wonder why Apple don't touch any Ryzen / Threadripper chips for their Macs.

plot twist : Apple go slowly full ARM and abandon both blue and read team (hints : Marzipan Project)
 
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$6,500 gets me a 32 core/64 thread EYPC workstation 128Gb ram/8Gb WX5100.

Today, not some undetermined point in the future.

16 cores/32 thread EYPC for just over $4,000.

AMD has reset the market. There is no reason to waste money on Intel - they are now where AMD was a few years ago.

If Timmy has the brains of a goose, he’d go all in on AMD right now - Ryzen on the low end (mini & mobile), threadripper on the midrange & EYPC on the top.

Going all in on AMD just makes them vulnerable again when the winds of fortune shift and performance calculus changes. And as mentioned, there's the Thunderbolt hole. Will that get filled soon? Maybe, but you can't switch over your products until that happens.
 
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While nVidia support would open up far more opportunities, there are creatives in media and entertainment who use Final Cut and Logic and those would be fine with AMD as the apps are optimized for them.

Also, Apple ProRes is widely used in the industry for broadcasting, streaming and physical media authoring so even if the content creation is done on nVidia-powered PCs, there could still be a place for a MacPro at the end of the chain to author that content.
Not necessary anymore...

https://www.premierebro.com/blog/premiere-pro-cc-2019-1302-update-prores-export-on-windows
 
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Actually, didn't Apple offer exactly that in the single socket/dual socket cMPs?

In a basic sense, yes, in that an MP and a PCWS both offered 1P/2P configurations that you could put some PCI cards and HDD/ODDs in. But the PC vendors offered higher-model CPUs than Apple did (more cores and/or higher clock speeds). They also went higher in RAM (192/256GB vs. 32GB), offered more 5.25" drive bays and offered beefier power supplies to support those more powerful CPUs, extra RAM and PCI cards.
 
$6,500 gets me a 32 core/64 thread EYPC workstation 128Gb ram/8Gb WX5100.

Today, not some undetermined point in the future.

16 cores/32 thread EYPC for just over $4,000.

AMD has reset the market. There is no reason to waste money on Intel - they are now where AMD was a few years ago.

If Timmy has the brains of a goose, he’d go all in on AMD right now - Ryzen on the low end (mini & mobile), threadripper on the midrange & EYPC on the top.

AMD's CPU are of decent quality. However, the corresponding AMD chipsets aren't quite on the same level of excellence.
In particular: the speed of NVMe SSD's in AMD chipset systems seems to be somewhat crippled, compared with the same NVMe SSD installed in an Intel system.
 
AMD's CPU are of decent quality. However, the corresponding AMD chipsets aren't quite on the same level of excellence.
In particular: the speed of NVMe SSD's in AMD chipset systems seems to be somewhat crippled, compared with the same NVMe SSD installed in an Intel system.

Using the T2 should take care of that, should it not?
 
And I'd think a $6500 (Threadripper) and up (EPYC) Mac Pro is at least possible. Can any of the AMD advocates on here shed light on why none of the workstation vendors seem to be offering that option?

HP, Dell, Lenovo and Puget Systems collectively offer zero Epyc/Threadripper workstations. I agree that it seems like the price/performance ratio would be excellent. Who makes such things - not gaming machines, but solid, professional workstations equivalent to a Mac Pro? Yes, it's easy enough to build one - but Apple would say "we offer a warranty on the whole thing, unified support and MacOS"...
 
And I'd think a $6500 (Threadripper) and up (EPYC) Mac Pro is at least possible. Can any of the AMD advocates on here shed light on why none of the workstation vendors seem to be offering that option?

HP, Dell, Lenovo and Puget Systems collectively offer zero Epyc/Threadripper workstations. I agree that it seems like the price/performance ratio would be excellent. Who makes such things - not gaming machines, but solid, professional workstations equivalent to a Mac Pro? Yes, it's easy enough to build one - but Apple would say "we offer a warranty on the whole thing, unified support and MacOS"...

Apple “care”? please. They offer one year of phone support, otherwise you’ll lugging that computer to the nearest Apple store which in my case is over 100 miles away.

Nobod got fired for buying Intel, until they did. There are a number of boutique workstation vendors that have been around for a while, (20+ years) that provide thread ripper and EYPC workstations.

The boutique vendors are moving faster because they’re smaller.

And the warranty support they offer is much much better than anything Apple provides.
 
nVidia didn't just create CUDA and wait for adoption, they actively supported it's development. In the content creation world, many of the crucial power tools need CUDA cores for legit performance. It's hard to see how the 7,1 can be what the M&E market desires without nVidia...
 
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Hard to see a 7,1 without nVidia support being viable for creatives. Without media and entertainment customers I have trouble seeing sales numbers that would make sense.

The 7,1 does not need nVidia support because in Apple's small world CUDA is not necessary. Logic and FCP don't use it and those apps that do, don't exist to Apple. If you are running an app that uses CUDA and your workflow changes which demands more "power", you can add more cores. Without CUDA, Apple will gladly sell you another computer!:p

S.S. Apple, if you think the 6,1 was a bust, release an over priced 7,1 freezing out nVidia and this is what you will encounter. :oops:
Apple Iceberg.png
 
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The 7,1 does not need nVidia support because in Apple's small world CUDA is not necessary. Logic and FCP don't use it and those apps that do, don't exist to Apple. If you are running an app that uses CUDA and your workflow changes which demands more "power", you can add more cores. Without CUDA, Apple will gladly sell you another computer!:p

S.S. Apple, if you think the 6,1 was a bust, release an over priced 7,1 freezing out nVidia and this is what you will encounter. :oops:
View attachment 832163
appleberg dead a head
 
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Using the T2 should take care of that, should it not?

No. The T2's SSD implementation hooks up to the CPU's chipset ( In Intel's terminology the PCH platform control hub). It just looks like a NVMe SSD to the rest of the system. It will look like a NVMe SSD to AMD CPU+chipset also. If there are issues with AMD's NVMe interface implementation they will still be present when interfacing with a T2.

The question though would be whether AMD had problems with all NVMe implementations or just some drives. If it is just some drives then there would be a pretty good chance they'll fix anything on next iteration that had problems with T2's implementation if Apple was waving a 'fat' contract in front of them.

The T2 has some System Management chip (SMC) duties also (and likewise if hooked to the Intel PCH's SMC interface ). Whatever customizations were required there also would need to be done. But probably not particularly much different as Intel's interface evolves/evolved.
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...

That's raised my question. Apple have access to Radeon graphics business, I wonder why Apple don't touch any Ryzen / Threadripper chips for their Macs.

Several reasons.

1. Scale. AMD doesn't have top to bottom offerings over the last several years that were all better or at least highly competitive with Intel's offerings. Not just CPU products but firmware and implementation support. AMD was behind the curve on that across a number of products. ( the vast majority of their design wins were all in areas where price sensitive. How many high end laptops design wins do they even have now at this point ? )


2. Fabrication. Intel is in the dumps over last 2 years , but previous to that AMD lagged significantly. The GPUs that Apple has gotten over last 4-5 haven't been bleeding edge fabricated implementations. [ e.g., some GPUs with better perf/W ratios would have come in handy for the MacPro 2013 upgrade. Instead the baseline of the D300/Pitcairn went stale for years and upscale just got bigger and hotter so both were no-ops as good moves ) . Also quantity. The CPUs only just shifted away from GlobalFoundary (ex AMD fabs ) contracts. Apple wanting to dial up/down parts is easier to do in Intel's bigger customer pool.


3. Thunderbolt. AMD didn't put much effort into that. Again it is a boot/firmware implementation support issue. ( Intel has been key Apple partner in moving Lightpeak -> Thunderbolt -> Thunderbolt USB Type C 'merge' ). Thunderbolt's future folded into USB IF means AMD probably won't be sitting on outside going forward, but they don't having anything substantive right now ( or over last year or so ).


AMD has had a track record of shooting themselves in the foot. Last 1-2 years they haven't, but is that an aberration or had they turned the corner for a long run. Versus Apple sticking with the vendor they knew and hoping they sort out the potholes they had fallen into.


plot twist : Apple go slowly full ARM and abandon both blue and read team (hints : Marzipan Project)

If anything, Marzipan is about supporting multiple CPU stacks not just one. There are some what appear to be misguided characterizations that point to Marizpan being some variations on emulation. Everything Apple has explicitly said so far (last WWDC 2018) points to compile/build to platform as being part of the process.

If there is a narrow transition ( i.e., onto just thinnest, lightest laptops ) then 'abandon' is probably questionable.
 
I didn't previously notice that Puget Systems Threadripper system - it's not in any of their stock products, and it's not in any of their photo or video recommended systems, either. You either have to find it as a recommended system in some of their 3D apps or custom configure it from scratch. They actually have specific recommendations for Intel processors over AMD for Lightroom, Photoshop, Resolve, plus (usually) Premiere and After Effects - they do admit to specific Premiere/AE use/budget cases where Threadripper wins.

Many of these applications depend on high performance on fewer threads, and Intel almost always has the best performance per thread at any given price point (according to Puget Systems among others). AMD can give you 50-100% more threads, each of which is 20-30% slower, so the AMD is faster if and only if you can use all the threads. Seeing these results, it makes sense that Apple has stuck to Intel - super-threaded applications are relatively rare... The new Ryzens may improve per-thread performance - will that cause Apple to pivot?

Apple has historically focused on photo/video/music in their workstation line, not 3D/CAD/GIS... This is also why they probably won't support some of the insanely high end options the Z8 is capable of (those are mostly for 3D). They'd offer faster/fewer core processors if they could find them, but Murphy's Law has caught up with Moore's Law, so essentially all speed boosts come from more cores now!
 
Many of these applications depend on high performance on fewer threads, and Intel almost always has the best performance per thread at any given price point (according to Puget Systems among others). AMD can give you 50-100% more threads, each of which is 20-30% slower, so the AMD is faster if and only if you can use all the threads. Seeing these results, it makes sense that Apple has stuck to Intel - super-threaded applications are relatively rare... The new Ryzens may improve per-thread performance - will that cause Apple to pivot?
...
They'd offer faster/fewer core processors if they could find them, but Murphy's Law has caught up with Moore's Law, so essentially all speed boosts come from more cores now!

There are some interesting technologies on the horizon to leverage high core/thread counts even for software not designed to. If I understand the state of affairs correctly ( and probably don't ) Clocks are seemingly near peak for current tech, an increase in density will not help get higher clocks as an increase in density will also increase thermals. Density will help efficiency, but the same ceilings in terms of clocks will still be there ( for current manufacturing processes ). Multi threading also suffers from diminishing returns and Amdahl's law and whatnot, but there is a lot more room for performance gains there yet.
 
Apple has historically focused on photo/video/music in their workstation line, not 3D/CAD/GIS... This is also why they probably won't support some of the insanely high end options the Z8 is capable of (those are mostly for 3D). They'd offer faster/fewer core processors if they could find them, but Murphy's Law has caught up with Moore's Law, so essentially all speed boosts come from more cores now!

Apple may have focused on video and such, but Power Macs and Mac Pros could do anything. The Trashcan on the other hand, was nothing more than a dongle for Final Cut.

Focusing exclusively for one area to the exclusion of everything else is a recipe for low sales.

AFA xeons vs. threadripper/epyc - all of the AMD cores turbo, xeons so it really isn’t 20 - 30% slower.
 
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