MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[Boil]

Anybody else feel it would start at 7999?

If the modular Mac Pro started at $799 there would be a serious backlash...

Nope

How much do you think it would start at? I don't think it would be 4999 when the iMac Pro itself costs that much. Is this not going to be far more modular and powerful. I am sure it will be.

Excepting different base / BTO GPUs & the possibility of a different socket, I expect the mMP to pretty much mirror the iMP; just with PCIe slots and higher RAM & storage capacities...

Oh, and no attached monitor...

iMac Pro includes a screen, which has a value.

It'll probably start at a similar price point and scale up as with other products.

If you start at $8k and have to add a decent screen, studios are going to look at that and say "no I'll buy two iMac pros instead."

You just need to look at the price overlap across the entire Mac lineup to see that.

iMac Pro also include 230 bucks in keyboard & mouse, which is BTO for the Mac Pro...

Yes. But people need to buy the iMac Pro every 3 years because it isn't modular. With the Mac Pro, it is modular, nobody cares about warranty as much. So even 7-10 years is fine.

Besides the far more powerful config and Apple's annual inflation.

Though it is possible it is 4999 and up. But the fact that the old one was 2999, makes me doubt Apple to be fair enough to their customer base

I am gonna call US$3499 for base model 2019 modular Mac Pro...

...a messy, fussy, home-assembled stack of pancakes is not going to be the mMP.

How about a modular, classy, home-assembled stack of Belgian waffles...?

 

[mattspace]

Like a conventional computer, but neat

I'm not sure Apple would want to ship a machine that's mostly empty space if there are no extended capability modules installed, unless they were going for something that ships with a minimum spec of every module pre-filled.

"Small for those who need small, expansive for those who need expansion".

 

[kiiso]

My predictions for MP 7,1:
​

Processors: Intel Cascade Lake Xeon-W. These are the updated versions of the CPUs used in iMac Pro. I think the 2nd generation scalabel Xeons (Silver/Gold/Platinum) are simply too expensive, and the base clock is not high enough. What about dual CPU setup? As mentioned previously in this thread before, the industry is moving towards single shocket systems.

• Xeon W-3275 28 core, 2.5 GHz base, 205W
• Xeon W-3265 24 core, 2.7 GHz base, 205W
• Xeon W-3245 16 core, 3.2 GHz base, 205W
• Xeon W-3235 12 core, 3.3 GHz base, 180W
• Xeon W-3225 8 core, 3.7 GHz base, 160W
• Xeon W-3223 8 core, 3.5 GHz base, 160W

Memory: 6 channel, ECC DDR 4, Apple probably going with 6 dimm slots (instead of the full 12) so up to 384 GB. I believe it will be user serviceable.

Storage: Similar to the iMac Pro, i predict that the new MP will have 2 custom SSD-s in RAID, locked by the T2/3 chip. ~4GB/s read and write.
1 TB standard, up to 6 TB as BTO option.
Lets hope for at least 1 additional user accessible standard NVMe slot.

Graphics: PCIe 4.0, AMD Navi 12 and Navi 10 based Radeon Pro. Dual GPU setup as BTO option, up to 24GB GDDR6/GPU.

Ports: 6x Thunderbolt 3, 4x USB-A, Dual 10Gb Ethernet

Those were my conservative predictions.
Here is my crazy wild idea for everyone to enjoy:

What if the next MP is a server rackable system with modular ARM-based accelerating add-on cards?

Accesible on the network with 10GBe through quiet workstations:

• Mac mini
• iMac Pro
• MBP with TB3-10GBe adapter
• maybe the new 6K display will have 10GBe?

Apple could develop an API, so softwares like Adobe CC, Maya, AutoDesk, Mathematica, etc. could harness the power of the ARM cluster.

Is this even possible? Does it makes sense?
Wet dream much?

Disclaimer: i am not a pro in networks, nor in software development.

 

[nerdynerdynerdy]

I'm not sure Apple would want to ship a machine that's mostly empty space if there are no extended capability modules installed, unless they were going for something that ships with a minimum spec of every module pre-filled.

"Small for those who need small, expansive for those who need expansion".

But I don't think they would supply modules only used by some people. You'll only be able to change CPU, GPU, RAM and a drive or two. Every configuration will need to ship with at least one of those.

Some of the silly concepts we've seen have separate i/o modules, DAWs, capture cards and other bollocks. Apple are not about to start making those.

I think people are getting too hung up on modules being the size of mac minis - who says this needs to be tiny? The thermal corner they backed themselves into (and acknowledged) with the nMP won't be repeated. The machine will be bigger. I'd expect half way between nMP and cMP, with some empty space for dual CPU or GPU configurations.

So it'll be modular in terms of how it can be configured internally. Not externally.

 

[Mago]

Just got new cues which seems to confirm vertical airflow atx-sized mini-tower design all aluminum space gray rounded corners (Mac mini like with grille on top ) big enough for 2 GPU in triple slot .

 

[Boil]

Just got new cues which seems to confirm vertical airflow atx-sized mini-tower design all aluminum space gray rounded corners (Mac mini like) big enough for 2 GPU in triple slot .

Yeah, but what about that "dual 20cm top fans", did you mean dual 120mm fans?

 

[JesterJJZ]

Just got new cues which seems to confirm vertical airflow atx-sized mini-tower design all aluminum space gray rounded corners (Mac mini like with grille on top ) big enough for 2 GPU in triple slot .

That’s basically the leak we saw and the one I mocked up.

View attachment 836867

 

[Boil]

Just got new cues which seems to confirm vertical airflow atx-sized mini-tower design all aluminum space gray rounded corners (Mac mini like with grille on top ) big enough for 2 GPU in triple slot .

That’s basically the leak we saw and the one I mocked up.

No, this is what @Mago is talking about...

I based on plausible leaks I've been tracking, I consider the next mMP to be as follows:

Form factor: desktop, mini tower, about 18" tall, vertical airflow, CPU/RAM/PSU in the rear half, 2 GPU PCIE in vertical at the frontal "lobe" triple width, room for a common optional radiator on top, GPU has to include internal display port interface, legacy dp/HDMI interface's accessible thru an optional adapter Linking it to the back end.

Frontal lobe in space gray, rear lobe in space Black.
Rounded corners as the Mac mini, open top for natural convection, dual ~20cm fans on top.

CPU: no real clues, assuming apple and AMD has working own thunderbolt 3 compatible host Chip, we could see an Epyc - TR3 mMP with PCIE 4 , else apple will be stick with Intel Xeon-W and PCIE3

TDP ~ 900-1000W but "quiet" configurations may need barely need 250W

RAM, 6-8 slots ECC DDR4

Storage: ridiculous expensive apple PCIE but x8 interface faster than anything on Earth (.. )

GPUs: at launch AMD Vegas only, later nVidia as bto or as diy upgrade, AMD Navi may not come to the Mac this year

Ports: 6x TB3 4x-6x USB 3-whatever, 1-3 HDMI 2.x or DP1.4

No real cues on a 3rd PCIE slot for non GPU s peripherals.

Apple may launch it's own TPU for training/inference no cues if pcie or TB3

Base mMP cost the same as current tcMP 6 core, but starting with 8 cores and a single passive cooled GPU (Rx vega 48 likely)

Apple professional display to be usb-c/tb3 6400x2880 pixel, curved

A new pro desktop keyboard is possible including the touch bar and slim mechanical switches.

No chance for 2p sata m.2 neither arm switch.

 

[barmann]

Here is my crazy wild idea for everyone to enjoy:

What if the next MP is a server rackable system with modular ARM-based accelerating add-on cards?

Ohhhh, that's so crazy ...
What if it's a shark with laser beams attached to its head ?
[doublepost=1558616499][/doublepost]

What is the Lego stack?

It is two or more Lego bricks put on top of each other .
A Lego brick is stackable, and it looks like this -->

 

[Mago]

Yeah, but what about that "dual 20cm top fans", did you mean dual 120mm fans?

You can discarded that measurement, maybe a translator error
[doublepost=1558617550][/doublepost]

That’s basically the leak we saw and the one I mocked up.

Moreless add a vent in the middle top and adjust proportions to 4:1 DxW and about 12in tall

 

[Manzanito]

iMac Pro also include 230 bucks in keyboard & mouse, which is BTO for the Mac Pro...

This is something I never understood. Why did apple remove the keyboard and mouse? Just to make the package smaller? It’s not as if they were passing the savings on to the customers.

 

[Martyimac]

This is something I never understood. Why did apple remove the keyboard and mouse? Just to make the package smaller? It’s not as if they were passing the savings on to the customers.

I don't think the MP ever had a keyboard or mouse option. My first MP was bought back in mid 2000's and fairly sure I had to buy a keyboard and mouse even back then.

 

[Pedrith]

There was a keyboard and mouse option. I still have the keyboard that came with mine and am saving it for when my current one dies. Had to replace my mouse tho.

 

[Manzanito]

I don't think the MP ever had a keyboard or mouse option. My first MP was bought back in mid 2000's and fairly sure I had to buy a keyboard and mouse even back then.

My 2010 came with both keyboard and mouse. Maybe that year was the exception, but I don’t think so.

 

[JesterJJZ]

All my Cheesegraters came with a mouse and keyboard.

 

[fuchsdh]

It totally could mean a towery sort of thing with internal modules you can swap out. But I'm not dismissing the lego rumor for a few different reasons:
- The sites covering it have other details, like Apple's consideration of third party modules. That's a little more detail than someone just coming up with lego Mac ideas.
- I think Apple is going to want to have a lot of flexibility. They're going to want someone to be able to add 4 SSDs or three GPUs or whatever, and each of those modules would have different cooling and size requirements. And I don't really see Apple building an SSD module that is the same size as a GPU module with a lot of empty space. And a backplane with dedicated slots would have inherent limitations on what could be added where.
- Because stackable modules can be different sizes that would give them flexibility on cooling. And after the 2013 Mac Pro I think they're going to overcompensate on cooling.
- This seems like exactly the sort of nonsense Ive would have Apple engineers working on for 4 years to come up with some crazy connector for. The internal modules idea doesn't really explain what Apple has been spending all this time doing in the same way a stackable wild goose chase would.

Disregarding the rumors for a second, the obvious answer why it’s taken Apple so long is that they’re no longer a small computer company with a few hundred million in revenue. They’re huge, and their consumer electronics operate on a scale that’s hard to fathom. You simply can’t change the course you’re steering on a dime. While they have tried to keep a lean and mean design ethos the downside of that is they were by necessity neglecting some parts of their business. Having a pro workflow team seems like a sensible part of your product development; the fact they didn’t have one and we’re adding it speaks to a fundamental reorganization of their own processes.

As they basically noted, probably until just a short period of time before the April 2017 meeting their answer to the Mac Pro was probably the iMac Pro. They haven’t been spending six years redesigning it, or even four years. It’s probably been not too much more than two.

It’s Apple’s fault that they’re having to rebuild the Mac Pro from scratch essentially, but that’s why it makes no sense to compare their timeframe with HO and Dell who have been incredibly conservative and iterative with their designs too. Wipe that away and tell them to start again while you are also the world’s most profitable consumer PC maker and phone maker and smart watch maker and you likely wouldn’t have a quality product.

 

[CWallace]

I'm not sure they want to sell any product that's freely upgradable outside of them. I think they'd probably say it's not the iMac Pro because it doesn't have a built in display and they'll at least let you swap GPU modules, as long as you buy from them.

But I don't think, given how they're handling everything else, they really care about users freely upgrading computers with off the shelf parts. It's just not part of their value system. The reason I buy the Lego Mac rumor is because I don't think Apple even thinks about off the shelf internal upgrades any more.

I agree that I do not expect the 2019 Mac Pro to have anything close to the "anything goes" upgrade ability of the 2008-2012 model. But I do believe you will be able to replace some parts in it. Even the 2013-2018 model allowed CPU, RAM and SSD upgrades so I expect those to continue to be possible along with GPU upgrades. And a single box will allow for that - no need for separate "CPU boxes", "RAM boxes", "Storage boxes", etc.

I'd say RAM upgrades sounds like something they'd maybe support. But even on the iMac Pro you have to take it to the Apple Store now, and I think they might even restrict you to just Apple RAM.

The iMac Pro's RAM upgrade issues are due to the cooling system design. Let us not forget the 27" iMac still allows user-upgradeable RAM as does the 2018 Mac Mini. So I fully expect the 2019 Mac Pro will allow direct-access to RAM as the 2008-2018 models did.

And they could continue their proprietary storage on the new Mac Pro in a storage module.

The T2 is going to have a role to play, but as others have noted, it's presence does not preclude allowing user-upgradeable storage.

It's goes the same place you put whatever other 2 year old GPU you have. I honestly don't think anyone at Apple really cares about this. They really don't care what you do with it after you buy it. They've already got their money.

Binning entire sections of a Mac Pro as they go out of date would run directly counter to Apple's corporate image as an Environmentally-Friendly company.

And yet Tim Cook has seen a ballooning of SKUs that would put Spindler to shame.

But he hasn't done this at the component level, which is what all these "Lego Mac" concepts would entail.

But that to me starts heading back to attractively integrated internal modularity. Like the original mac pro, you open the hidden door, and someone with no technical skill can slide out a sealed module and slide another one in. Like a conventional computer, but neat.

This I could see. Someone even came up with such a concept and made a YouTube video about it that was posted up-thread somewhere. You'd have a module with the CPU and memory on it (like the 2008-2012 models) and another that would hold 4 SSDs (supporting either RAID-0 or RAID-1) and another that would have a GPU. All were in enclosures that just slid in and out of a larger "box".

 

[goMac]

It’s Apple’s fault that they’re having to rebuild the Mac Pro from scratch essentially, but that’s why it makes no sense to compare their timeframe with HO and Dell who have been incredibly conservative and iterative with their designs too. Wipe that away and tell them to start again while you are also the world’s most profitable consumer PC maker and phone maker and smart watch maker and you likely wouldn’t have a quality product.

Sure. A few years would be reasonable for a re-alignment. If this thing is shipping in 2020, which has been rumored, that's something much larger. That's what gets me suspicious.

I agree that I do not expect the 2019 Mac Pro to have anything close to the "anything goes" upgrade ability of the 2008-2012 model. But I do believe you will be able to replace some parts in it. Even the 2013-2018 model allowed CPU, RAM and SSD upgrades so I expect those to continue to be possible along with GPU upgrades. And a single box will allow for that - no need for separate "CPU boxes", "RAM boxes", "Storage boxes", etc.

I could see Apple allowing RAM upgrades, and having a CPU socket people can mess with.

But SSDs is where I don't see Apple changing directions. I think whatever it is is going to have a T series controller, just like the iMac Pro, and bare SSD blades. They're not going to do M.2 and I really doubt they'll do SATA.

Of course the T series SSD would make sense if it was it's own complete component that could be swapped in and out.

The iMac Pro's RAM upgrade issues are due to the cooling system design. Let us not forget the 27" iMac still allows user-upgradeable RAM as does the 2018 Mac Mini. So I fully expect the 2019 Mac Pro will allow direct-access to RAM as the 2008-2018 models did.

2018 Mac mini is not user upgradable, but it's not soldered.

I expect the Mac Pro would have user upgradable RAM too. If anything, I think that's going to be a selling point over the iMac Pro.

The T2 is going to have a role to play, but as others have noted, it's presence does not preclude allowing user-upgradeable storage.

I think the strategy Apple will take is "all internal storage is our T series/SSD tech, if you want anything else here is Thunderbolt." They'll gladly sell you a new T series/SSD module if you want to swap. And if it's stackable you could buy multiples.

Binning entire sections of a Mac Pro as they go out of date would run directly counter to Apple's corporate image as an Environmentally-Friendly company.

I mean, it's literally what they do with every other product. I'm sure they'd be happy to take your old competent back and recycle it for you. But they're already doing this on every other product line.

But he hasn't done this at the component level, which is what all these "Lego Mac" concepts would entail.

You could see where the madness would start though. Tim could be annoyed that the Mac Pro factory has to spend all this time on BTO configs. But what if there was an idea that you could sell each component separately and the user would assemble it. That would cleanup production in a way that would be catnip to an Apple that is more about efficiency. It's the IKEA model, for better or worse.

This I could see. Someone even came up with such a concept and made a YouTube video about it that was posted up-thread somewhere. You'd have a module with the CPU and memory on it (like the 2008-2012 models) and another that would hold 4 SSDs (supporting either RAID-0 or RAID-1) and another that would have a GPU. All were in enclosures that just slid in and out of a larger "box".

It's reasonable, but I think the problem is going to be if the user wants 2 or 3 GPUs. I also don't think Apple is going to go back to standard SSDs or normal RAID controllers.

 

[Blair Paulsen]

A large enough case to support internal sleds, drawers, etc for a tidy version of modular sounds great. Sadly, it would require many buyers to get a much larger desktop box than they actually need.
I still think the logical approach is a mini-tower sized mMP that can take a single PCIe card, probably Apple proprietary form factor, and be plenty of compute for many users. To satisfy the modular commitment, they would offer a second mini-tower - cosmetically matched to the "brain" unit - with PCIe slots and a high bandwidth/low latency connection to the mobo.
Giving each external GPU, SSD, etc a TB3 port and it's own casing has, as noted by others, many downsides. Making a single case solution that could house a properly loaded workstation feels like a trip back in time to the cMP days, which, as others have noted, seems highly unlikely.

 

[goMac]

Just got new cues which seems to confirm vertical airflow atx-sized mini-tower design all aluminum space gray rounded corners (Mac mini like with grille on top ) big enough for 2 GPU in triple slot .

I'd love to believe it, but Nvidia support doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Silencio]

I don't think the MP ever had a keyboard or mouse option. My first MP was bought back in mid 2000's and fairly sure I had to buy a keyboard and mouse even back then.

Go back even further. Most of the Classic Macs since the Macintosh II only shipped with a mouse; you had to buy your ADB keyboard separately, and those would run you $100+ (in 1980s dollars!).

 

[CWallace]

2018 Mac mini is not user upgradable, but it's not soldered.

It's not easily user-upgradeable (like on an iMac 5K where you just pop the door), but someone with general technical savvy can do it and there are not the "big blockers" like the display screen that make it so much more difficult/scary on the 4K iMac and iMac Pro.

I mean, (throwing it away is) literally what they do with every other product. I'm sure they'd be happy to take your old competent back and recycle it for you. But they're already doing this on every other product line.

You can pass-on still-functional iPhones, iPads, Watches and Macs because it's a self-contained unit. You can't really do that with a module designed only to work as part of a larger unit.

You could see where the madness would start though. Tim could be annoyed that the Mac Pro factory has to spend all this time on BTO configs.

So you limit the number of BTO options.

But what if there was an idea that you could sell each component separately and the user would assemble it. That would cleanup production in a way that would be catnip to an Apple that is more about efficiency. It's the IKEA model, for better or worse.

That would just be shifting the "annoyance" from the assembly line to the warehouse and supply chain. And now you have to depend on your customer to assemble these components and not damage them in the process, triggering a warranty claim.

It's reasonable, but I think the problem is going to be if the user wants 2 or 3 GPUs. I also don't think Apple is going to go back to standard SSDs or normal RAID controllers.

Agreed, but this ties into the limit of the BTO options.

One or two GPUs only - want more, use eGPUs via TB3.

2x or 4x SSDs only - want more, use external storage connected via TB3.

 

[Martyimac]

2018 Mac mini is not user upgradable, but it's not soldered.

Yes it is. Upgraded mine to 32 OWC ram. Did it myself. This is answer applies only to your response earlier about ram.

 

[goMac]

Yes it is. Upgraded mine to 32 OWC ram. Did it myself. This is answer applies only to your response earlier about ram.

It's not easily user-upgradeable (like on an iMac 5K where you just pop the door), but someone with general technical savvy can do it and there are not the "big blockers" like the display screen that make it so much more difficult/scary on the 4K iMac and iMac Pro.

I'm aware it can be done. But it's warranty voiding and not considered user serviceable by Apple, which is kind of the important part.

You can pass-on still-functional iPhones, iPads, Watches and Macs because it's a self-contained unit. You can't really do that with a module designed only to work as part of a larger unit.

This isn't really any different than any leftover GPU or drive today.

Apple can't even replace a MacBook Pro keyboard without replacing the entire logic board. It's going to be tough to convince me that they're waste conscious.

So you limit the number of BTO options.

Which isn't plausible on a pro workstation.

That would just be shifting the "annoyance" from the assembly line to the warehouse and supply chain.

But you'd gain the ability to sell BTO configurations in store, which Apple can't right now.

And now you have to depend on your customer to assemble these components and not damage them in the process, triggering a warranty claim.

That sounds like the sort of thing Ive could spend 4 years designing around, and then get on stage and brag about Apple's innovation.

Agreed, but this ties into the limit of the BTO options.

One or two GPUs only - want more, use eGPUs via TB3.

2x or 4x SSDs only - want more, use external storage connected via TB3.

It's possible. And I think it's likely that some things (like SATA drives or standard GPUs) Apple will tell people they need to use Thunderbolt.

But Apple is very image conscious, and you know they probably weren't happy about all the wire mess Mac Pro memes. They very likely could have looked at that and gone "We like Thunderbolt, we like everything being external, is there a way we could do that without the wires?"

 

[-hh]

See when I hear "stackable", I've never thought "every single component in a separate module" - ie every GPU in a proprietary individual box, I'm thinking the existing cMP PCI backplane, IO ports, power supply, and processor boards in separate boxes, using the same sort of megaconnector that attaches the CPUs to the backplane.

Further, I could easily see a version that has all IO on PCI cards (including something like the oldschool "personality card", which had several IO bundled together), and you just configure it with a "lane budget" if you don't want a preconfigured option. It's a small volume product, Apple can afford to run it as a more complex BTO-Only product with several options for PCI expansion numbers, or make parts like that a third party opportunity...

Well, after a few weeks, I'm caught up (for the moment) on this thread. Something in the above post triggered a thought on the whole "modular/leggo" style of discussions.

Basically, the thought that got triggered was "..this has been done before..".

What I'm thinking of is the PC104 "stack" design, often used in industrial PCs applications:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC/104

From the Wiki page (my emphasis has been added in BOLD):

"PC/104 (or PC104) is a family of embedded computer standards which define both form factors and computer buses. PC/104 is intended for specialized environments where a small, rugged computer system is required. The standard is modular, and allows consumers to stack together boards from a variety of COTS manufacturers to produce a customized embedded system.[1]"

In a nutshell, this existing standard would be the "engineering guts" which Jonny Ive would then create a pretty Apple case (with cooling) to go around.

The catch to this - - and maybe a plausible basis for Apple's long gestation period - - is that per Wiki, it looks like the PC104 hasn't had a major Standards update since 2008. As such, Apple could have been putting together the case to propose a new standard which incorporates Thunderbolt (and or maybe PCI 4?) and whatever Apple is thinking.

Granted, this is probably vastly too optimistic to believe that Apple could be heading this way, but its a least something that superficially seems to pull some of the threads together - - and if it does go the industry standard route, then we wouldn't necessarily be totally held hostage to only Apple.