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mikas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2017
898
648
Finland
Never built or owned a pc before, but i guess there a first time for everything.

Starting to wonder if there's a need for a dedicated "companion PC for your mac pro" thread ;)
Maybe there is demand for a thread like that.

Updated my sig with a new companion PC: another old HP Z in da house. I’m not gonna buy that purposely locked down iMac Pro with overpriced memory etc. I'd consider the 5500€ iMP at a base price, if you could later upgrade the freaking machine by yourself - but no, you can't do anything at all.

Waiting for Mac Pro 'til 2019..
...
...
Huh, can't do.

So yes, I have considered jumping ships too. With my latest experiences with these older HP’s and WIN10, I believe I could do that. I wouldn’t want to loose OS X (sorry-Mac OS now), but someday I just might have to. Apple's made things that way now, unfortunately.

ps. HP Z800 is a serious windmill though. I hate that noise, power supply fans whining. Need to listen to some music when it renders hard. But it renders cheap and fast.
 
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Jethro!

macrumors 6502
Oct 4, 2015
330
341
Really does not seem like it should be this difficult to put a bunch of high-end components, mostly manufactured by others, into a box.

The Mac Pro stewards at Apple have been afflicted with "overthinking to the n-th degree" for 5+ years now.
A to the Men with that. The MP tower design was nearly flawless. Apple could simply update it with the latest everything and it would sell like hotcakes -- I'd buy one. Then when their Awesome New Innovative MP comes along, sell it alongside the tower. Give us the choice.

But no.

The pro side has been infected with wow-factor expectations from the press and tech bloggers from the iToy side, and now we have paralysis by analysis. Or apathy. Or both. None of it bodes well for pro reliance on Apple.
 

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
2,789
912
Beyond the Thunderdome

Kcetech1

macrumors 6502
Nov 24, 2016
258
120
Alberta Canada
ps. HP Z800 is a serious windmill though. I hate that noise, power supply fans whining. Need to listen to some music when it renders hard. But it renders cheap and fast.

you can put in far quieter fans and upgrade the cooling in them no near silent as well ( we have a pair of them at work )
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,330
2,965
Australia
I have doubts about liquid cooling, I need more research about.

I think all of us have probably been given a very bad impression of liquid cooling, by Apple screwing it up on the G5. We need to keep in mind the rule of thumb - just because something is bad when Apple does it, doesn't mean it's a problem anyone else has. If you listen to ATP Podcast, Marco has lamented about his worry that rather than fixing their laptop keyboards, Apple will turn to "the problem with keyboards is they are failure prone, so we're moving to a touchscreen surface where the keys were", rather than just making a good keyboard.

AIO liquid coolers seem pretty turnkey, and so long as you've got an outboard data backup, even a catastrophic liquid leak, what's it going to do in a machine where you can replace individual parts at market prices rather an Apple's "this wore out because it was a faulty design" extortion (I'm looking at you, thunderbolt display double-tailed cable)? I guess the absolute worst case scenario, is a fire from a short after a spill?

If you wanted to DIY a custom liquid solution, there seem to be "non conductive" cooling liquids out there.
 

vailr

macrumors regular
Oct 22, 2009
207
92
I'm leaving the boat, next week I begin to study my replacement WorkStation, Maybe it will be a Hackintosh/Linux dual boot on Amd Epyc or Xeon-W plus a couple of nVidia GPU.
An AMD CPU would not be a good choice for a custom Hackintosh build.
You'd want to pick an Intel CPU for an easier, more compatible macOS installation experience.
Stick to the April 2018 components recommended at tonymacx86.com.
 

mikas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2017
898
648
Finland
you can put in far quieter fans and upgrade the cooling in them no near silent as well ( we have a pair of them at work )
Will dive into it later, thanks.
(I suspect the two power supply fans, the little ones. I don't mind the lower hum so much. It's the high pitch whine which irritates me.)

As for these hackintoshes, I wouldn't want to go that way either. There seems to be some extra fiddling all the time with them too. Or maybe I have misunderstood or misread about this, don't know.

And what if Apple jumps the chip ship from intel to AMD or A-series, and/or integrates the A-series as general system contollers to all of their line-up. Or maybe even the A-series SSD-controller is enough to break the hackintosh business. All this could happen in a couple of years. And wouldn't be surprised if this kind of thinking has been on Apples roadmap a few years already.
 

Chancha

macrumors 68020
Mar 19, 2014
2,244
2,041
As for these hackintoshes, I wouldn't want to go that way either. There seems to be some extra fiddling all the time with them too. Or maybe I have misunderstood or misread about this, don't know.

And what if Apple jumps the chip ship from intel to AMD or A-series, and/or integrates the A-series as general system contollers to all of their line-up. Or maybe even the A-series SSD-controller is enough to break the hackintosh business. All this could happen in a couple of years. And wouldn't be surprised if this kind of thinking has been on Apples roadmap a few years already.
Hackintosh in general does require delicate setup in the beginning, something a typical Mac user - even a professional one - wouldn't want to fiddle with. But if the specific performance is not met by gears that Apple currently sells, then perhaps even a professional use-case will find the hassle justified.

As for the prospects of A series breaking hackintoshing, it won't happen until the entire Mac line up is shifted out of x86. As long as the very latest macOS needs to support some older Macs with intel on it then the drivers or the kernel itself will need to work with it.
 

filmak

macrumors 65816
Jun 21, 2012
1,418
777
between earth and heaven
and that gorgeous 5k display is incredible with unparalleled color accuracy.
You are joking, aren't you?
[doublepost=1523267732][/doublepost]
SONY produce thousands of interesting prototypes, couldn't focus on more than a dozen, kill off the rest after 3 versions, and make it public
Apple produce dozens of castrated prototypes, can't focus on more than a few, and kill some off right after the 1st version, and keep silent for 6 years.
Anyway, both of them have killed a lot... :)
 

tomscott1988

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2009
709
683
UK
As someone who has moved from Mac to windows for my professional work I thought it worth mentioning a few things for others. My newest machine is a dual Xeon dell with 64gb ram, 1tb SSD and Nvidia 1080ti. My first modern pc was a custom build a few years ago at the end of 2014 as a transition to see if I could deal with windows - its a i7 4790 32gb 256gb ssd GTX 780 while I was still using my 5,1 hex mac pro thats in my sig. At the time the 6,1 had just been announced and I thought I cant wait 4 years for a new machine... so the transition started.

I have been pleasantly surprised with Windows 10, I wouldn't say its a joy to use but there are a number of features that make life very easy like the screen window management and dual monitor implementation. You can get third party plug ins for the mac which I ended up doing for my macbook because Ive got so used to it. Otherwise its mostly just slight differences in the way you use the OS its really not night and day like it used to be.

Both have similar features and work very similarly. There is an app selection window in the task bar where you can put most used programs just like the Mac OS dock, you can drag and drop files onto program icons etc etc its really not a clunky experience and being a mac user for the last 13 years I was up and running in a few hours. Barely any issues at all.

Windows 10 still isnt as reliable or as simple to use but on the odd occasion its nice to have a few more non dumbed down options.

With Adobe CC (which is my main use case) being multi platform its just a case of moving your preferences over downloading the programs and off you go, there is no user difference to using the software on either paltform. I find the suite runs faster on windows too especially lightroom, premier and after effects because you can tailor a machine to ensure these programs work optimally. Unfortunately apple dont supply these components so your stuck with ATI for graphics instead of CUDA.

Things I do miss are the continuity of the mac, iMessage etc etc and just the general lightness and ease of use of the mac. Things I dont miss, slow performance in the apps I use most and I saved some money. The saving allowed me to advertise my business more than I would and also the money went further so I ended up buying a new lens too. Regardless of how you look at it if you can get money to go further the earning potential is higher if you can get the same work done.

Ive been a mac user since 2005 basically since I started uni. Back then I was using custom built PCs and was really into building computers. I haven't used windows since XP and remember being so frustrated with it, super buggy and unreliable and it crashed a lot and the reason I moved to the mac was mainly because of this, spending hours on work then loosing half of it through software glitches. But I was a geek and liked to mess about with my machines which is the reason I didnt like the closed system of the mac.

As soon as I realised that I was tinkering more than working and I was starting a career where I relied on the tech to earn money I saw the value in the mac. Back in the day the software was so tailored to the machines that lower specs with OSX ran programs as well if not better than they did on my PC.

I made the move when Apple finally had a comparable machine with the Core 2 Duo machines and bought the most powerful top end 17" MBP at the time which i loved but was short stayed.

I thought I wanted a desktop replacement that I could take with me. I was blown away that I could have a laptop that outperformed my PC that I could dock with a 23" cinema display and take with me. I loved the way it looked and felt the performance was also good at the time but I hated how heavy it was and ended up not taking it to uni often as I had to walk about 3 miles and it was a real back breaker, add a drive the power brick and my books... it was heavy.

In the end I sold it and bought a 13" unibody macbook and a 2008 mac pro so I had the best of both worlds and tbh this was absolutely ideal for me. Since then I sold the 2008 MP in 2013 and swapped it for a 5,1 thats in my sig and upgraded it as far as it would go. This was because I was desperate for a new one. The 2008 got old really quick towards the end of its life and it was slow with slow PCI and Sata connections upgrading it was more difficult.

I was waiting for the 6,1 and was so so so underwhelmed when it was delivered I bought a 4,1 quad upgraded the firmware and put a hex in it. They were within 10% as fast as the hex 6,1 and I could put pereferals in it that was no possible with the 6,1. I ended up paying about £1200 all in for the machine which was a quater of the price at the time. I also dont remember TB2 being a big deal either, here in the UK you literally couldnt find any TB pereferals at all only the odd lacie HDD or spend a fortune having them imported by OWC.

I also sold the macbook for an 11" mba and absolutely loved that too, but it was stolen unfortunately in early 2017 and the 2016 macbook pros seemed an expensive joke that were the same benches as the 2015 model. I ended up getting the macbook as i was desperate for something and didnt really need the power just something I could use for data management.

Anyway back in 2005 there was such a shake up with the Intel switch and Mac OS was miles ahead with the built in productivity apps iMovie, iPhoto, iWork, also Aperture and Final Cut. Apples store presence in the UK was gathering pace too and everyone I knew used macs at uni including the uni, just made sense.

Apple offered so much cool unheard of stuff back then that essentially made the mac a go to for creatives. Now iMovie has sort of been left by the wayside, iPhoto and Aperture merged into photos which isnt really a replacement at all for anyone even slightly serious. Then of course the Adobe suit which ran super smooth on the mac and the light airy feel of OSX was so refreshing, I remember opening the laptop for the first time and Tigers opening sequence started and it was just like nothing I had ever seen, instant love for it.

There was some magic, I dont know whether its me getting old but the mac products feel a bit meh now, maybe because the market is so mature but nothing interesting is happening in the Apple camp and there seems to be innovation in other markets that apple is ignoring. The iPad still is essentially the same as it was in 2010 its still not a macbook replacement and the post PC era products seem to have started to decline because they haven't inovated the mac and ipad line together. Its been time for a long time.

Especially with iPads hitting the £1000 mark and being powerful they are held back by IOS and lack of pro apps and support with desktop apps.

There was always a lust for the apple products since I got the macbook pro and there was a time I bought every product and there was always a machine that almost seemed built for me, whether it was a powerhouse or a portable laptop. Now its not the same, everything has built in obsolescence and you have to pay more to get something similar as SSDs and ram are BTO. This has made similar products to the pre 2013 era roughly 30-40% more expensive and they arent any different they all have the same use case, just speed increases and things that really made the mac different like port selection and mag safe are gone.

The days when macs lasted for years is disappearing. My 2015 macbook struggles to run High sierra even youtube maxes it. Thats 3 years old and you can do nothing to improve it. Probably why they arent keeping their value, mine was 50% cheaper and a year old with 23 cycles. Ridiculous.

I feel like the transition to the compact obsolescence for the 6,1 had a bit of a ripple effect throughout the industry, it did especially for me. That one product that I was waiting for was such a disappointment and I think it was the beginning of the end, i was astounded at how they got it so wrong. Since then I haven't bought a new Mac at all. Its like once you cut the head off the snake everything for me lost its appeal.

The 5,1 was preowned because I couldn't get a new one, the macbook air was stolen so I bought a preowned macbook to cover me for a short time waiting for a better MBP.

Honestly I haven't wanted to part with my money because I haven't felt the products are worth it. The price hikes and every product is a BTO, nothing can be upgraded to extend the life of a product.

You look at a 2012 macbook pro, it was the last products you could upgrade and although they are a little long in the tooth now you can still use them with ram and SSD upgraded and it makes a huge difference, what happens in 6 years time for other products? When new tech comes along they will be literally useless like the standard 2012 does with a spinner and 2gbs of ram. My macbook will be useless come the next OS as it already struggles.

I would love to come back to the mac but there is nothing to come back to. Now I dont live in a bubble, breaking away from the closed system and opening my eyes and seeing what else is around has been really fruitful.

The iMac pro looks great but I wont buy a non upgradable machine for £5k to start, they are having an absolute laugh with that. My dell workstation isnt as fast but its within 10% and it was significantly cheaper and has dual cpus and I can upgrade them... same with everything else, it has 8 PCI, 8 ram slots, 4 for each CPU. It has 6 drive slots all internal storage no need to spend another £500 on a TB3 HDD enclosure because its all internal neat under the desk, same with the GPU and can just put another in... Instead of again adding another £500 for a GPU enclosure.

Nothing in the mac world can come close to that sort of upgradability. There are downsides to not using the mac but at the end of the day for a work machine I cant ask for more and the savings for my business means there is money for other aspects.

The iMacs are like toys in comparison with the only saving grace for me being the screen. Even so, once the macs life is up so is the screen so in my mind your better off investing in dedicated monitors.

I still use a mac as a personal machine as I love mac OS but for the time being im moving further away and cant see a product that will pull me back unless they make a hybrid like the surface book 2 or make the iPad a usable machine thats integrated into the mac ecosystem so I can use the pen like a wacom with a mac desktop.

It really wouldn't be that hard the tech has been available for years. Tim Cook has his head stuffed so far up his ass that hes blind sided, it will only have a ripple affect. If pros stop using the mac they will stop using IOS too and sales will reduce. They cant keep putting prices up to make up the deficit for market shrinkage forever...

The behavior of apple toward the mac has been shocking over the last 3 years, these users arent stupid and these products arent cheap. The fact they had no contingency plan, the iMac pro is a parts bin special, granted a very good parts bin special but its a reaction, not a well planned product and I dont think it would have been the same a few years ago. It should always worry potential buyers if a product was developed so quickly simply because its likely it will be the only one with no upgrade path. Its a stop gap to keep pros nothing else.

So basically a stop gap until the Mac pro is delivered. All this talk of you 'should buy it now' dont wait its not coming... marketing gimics to make people part with £5k now rather than later.

Its certainly an expensive stop gap.

The possible integration is years away and unfortunately I have moved on and many of my professional colleagues have too. Apple should be desperately trying to sort this storm out.

With all the above products its probably about £15k of investment for each pro customer, it will be hurting apple and I hope it does to make them realise. How ever doubtful that is.

I hope im wrong and this year sees the return of kick ass pro products. Until then there has been no option for a lot of people.
 

filmak

macrumors 65816
Jun 21, 2012
1,418
777
between earth and heaven

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
2,789
912
Beyond the Thunderdome
If you wanted to DIY a custom liquid solution, there seem to be "non conductive" cooling liquids out there.
Yes it is my first consideration.
An AMD CPU would not be a good choice for a custom Hackintosh build.
You'd want to pick an Intel CPU for an easier, more compatible macOS installation experience.
Stick to the April 2018 components recommended at tonymacx86.com.
Seems the MP7,1 will be a Hacintosh to me at least, today that one at TonyMAc guides seems a conservative solution, before take a final choice I'll check the possibility to Hackintosh a Lenovo WS.

A a miss in TonyMac's configuration is a Nbase-T NIC, since it wont be thunderbolt enabled I plan to use my 10G Network + NAS for mass storage/backup.
 

pl1984

Suspended
Oct 31, 2017
2,230
2,645
The behavior of apple toward the mac has been shocking over the last 3 years, these users arent stupid and these products arent cheap. The fact they had no contingency plan, the iMac pro is a parts bin special, granted a very good parts bin special but its a reaction, not a well planned product and I dont think it would have been the same a few years ago. It should always worry potential buyers if a product was developed so quickly simply because its likely it will be the only one with no upgrade path. Its a stop gap to keep pros nothing else.
I am going to have to disagree with you on the iMac Pro being a parts bin special. I'm sure Apple had many types of iMac "pro" in their R&D well before they decided to release one.
 

PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,227
Midwest America.
Time to start another thread. This time it is based on something:

Edited, original article: https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/05/apples-2019-imac-pro-will-be-shaped-by-workflows/

We want to be transparent and communicate openly with our pro community, so we want them to know that the Mac Pro is a 2019 product. It’s not something for this year.” In addition to transparency for pro customers on an individual basis, there’s also a larger fiscal reasoning behind it.

“We know that there’s a lot of customers today that are making purchase decisions on the iMac Pro and whether or not they should wait for the Mac Pro,” says Boger.
"

I remember the 'pre-trash can' drawings and concepts that people came up with. Many of them were quite remarkable, and would have demanded my money. What came out was a dud... All I kept reading was that the internal storage was small, requiring expensive external devices, and on and on.

Maybe this time, they will get it righter... I doubt it. Sounds like they are overthinking this now. Committee decision...
 

reetcher

macrumors member
Apr 11, 2007
43
14
Waiting until 2019 is ridiculous. Tim Cook should be fired. The fact that he isn't leads me to believe the mutual funds that are holding Apple stock are keeping this company elevated beyond it's worth.
 
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fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
Waiting until 2019 is ridiculous. Tim Cook should be fired. The fact that he isn't leads me to believe the mutual funds that are holding Apple stock are keeping this company elevated beyond it's worth.

Tim Cook isn't being fired because at the end of the day investors don't care about the tiny market segment that is professional users. And Apple keeps making a metric ton of money.

Every Mac Pro thread is infected with comments that don't understand that pros aren't an important market segment for a company that sells tens of millions of phones a quarter, and frankly you should be happy Apple is reconsidering abandoning the area entirely, or just get a PC and stop the bellyaching.
 
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tomscott1988

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2009
709
683
UK
I am going to have to disagree with you on the iMac Pro being a parts bin special. I'm sure Apple had many types of iMac "pro" in their R&D well before they decided to release one.

What i mean as a parts bin special is that they made something with parts they already had. Just recycled design, not something I expect from apple. Its not a separate machine its a space grey iMac with workstation internals. They could have done so much more with a different chassis and made a new line. Its not impressive to me that they fit that power in an iMac because the AIO format is not what I would consider a pro machine.

In the jobs years this wouldnt have happened. It would have been a massive splash not a last minute lets fit as much as we can in an already compromised design.
 

ThatSandWyrm

macrumors 6502
Oct 30, 2017
251
214
Indianapolis
Read through it and really have a deeper impression that something is rotten at Apple-not sure who not sure where, but Apple is introuble. Even the author felt that Apple only realized an “erosion” with the pro community closer to the April Apology meeting.
Last April is roughly when hackintoshing started going mainstream. I'm sure their data analysts picked up on a sudden surge of suspicious installs. Cue panic.

What's rotten at the core of Apple is their need to differentiate their products in some way from everyone else, and maintain their growth/margins. Releasing a standard PC tower with standard expansion slots, even if "protected" with a T2 chip, wouldn't necessarily serve their interests. They don't want people endlessly upgrading 8-10 year old hardware with mass-market components. They want those people buying new systems after 3-4 years. The old cheese-grater Mac is the is the thorn in their side that they can't yet remove in order to stop the piracy threat.

Creating a simple Mac tower isn't hard. What's hard is offering "modularity" in a way that Apple can completely control. Since those are conflicting goals, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
 

vddobrev

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2016
962
833
Haskovo, Bulgaria
Good thing I didn’t wait, I got a 2013 Mac Pro in March and I am perfectly happy with it. But then again I don’t do video editing, I couldn’t care less about the video card, as long as it can do 4K@60Hz.
 
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singhs.apps

macrumors 6502a
Oct 27, 2016
659
397
Every Mac Pro thread is infected with comments that don't understand that pros aren't an important market segment for a company that sells tens of millions of phones a quarter, and frankly you should be happy Apple is reconsidering abandoning the area entirely, or just get a PC and stop the bellyaching.

Take it up with Apple management and ask them to stop claiming that Mac Pro users are important to them ( after lying comatose in the interim) which BTW contradicts your own stance that this segment isn’t important to Apple.

And while you are at it, stop littering these threads yourself if you aren’t using or interested in using such systems ( macs or otherwise ) if you get by iOS products.
 

Jethro!

macrumors 6502
Oct 4, 2015
330
341
What's rotten at the core of Apple is their need to differentiate their products in some way from everyone else, and maintain their growth/margins. Releasing a standard PC tower with standard expansion slots, even if "protected" with a T2 chip, wouldn't necessarily serve their interests. They don't want people endlessly upgrading 8-10 year old hardware with mass-market components. They want those people buying new systems after 3-4 years. The old cheese-grater Mac is the is the thorn in their side that they can't yet remove in order to stop the piracy threat.
If that's the way Apple is thinking, they're fools and they're toast. I'm still trucking along nicely with my 8-core 2009 MP (gonna upgrade it again this year), but I would have bought a new one had it been available. If they iMac Pro-ize the new MP -- virtually nothing user serviceable or upgradable -- that's it for me. Done with Apple. And probably lots of others, too. All they'll be left with are the shiny iToy chasers, who are a fickle bunch and will drop Apple in a heartbeat when they don't "innovate" to blogger expectations.
 
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fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
Take it up with Apple management and ask them to stop claiming that Mac Pro users are important to them ( after lying comatose in the interim) which BTW contradicts your own stance that this segment isn’t important to Apple.

And while you are at it, stop littering these threads yourself if you aren’t using or interested in using such systems ( macs or otherwise ) if you get by iOS products.

I'm a professional user, you nitwit. I guess your reading comprehension is lacking. I'm just the person who's not demanding a multibillion company is failing and its leadership should be fired because they aren't targeting my interests above all else. The last thing Mac threads need is more pointless hyperbole.

If you make purchasing decisions based on what company management says versus their actual offerings, you're a fool.

If that's the way Apple is thinking, they're fools and they're toast. I'm still trucking along nicely with my 8-core 2009 MP (gonna upgrade it again this year), but I would have bought a new one had it been available. If they iMac Pro-ize the new MP -- virtually nothing user serviceable or upgradable -- that's it for me. Done with Apple. And probably lots of others, too. All they'll be left with are the shiny iToy chasers, who are a fickle bunch and will drop Apple in a heartbeat when they don't "innovate" to blogger expectations.

The "fickle" iToy chasers continue to make Apple boatloads of money, and they have yet to experience any meaningful contraction. Seems like your characterization is based more in being upset about your own wants rather than Apple's actual consumers.

People have been saying Apple is doomed over not making their machines upgradable since literally the Mac 128K, and it's been six years now since the rMBPs and the sky still remains firmly above us.
 

ActionableMango

macrumors G3
Sep 21, 2010
9,612
6,909
They don't want people endlessly upgrading 8-10 year old hardware with mass-market components.

On the other hand, because they don't sell a suitable Mac, a lot of us have simply left for a Windows PC.

And now that I've sold all my Mac Pros and I'm becoming accustomed to working in Windows, I'm wondering why I'm still keeping a Mac Mini around.

In other words, the 6,1 was just so incredibly unsuitable that it knocked me entirely out of the Mac ecosystem.

The mMP might being me back, but it would have to be perfect, and priced right.
 
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