Waiting for the 2020 MBP

[leman]

No, they limit the W...since the imac pro is working so great under full load without reaching 100C...

Mac Pro is a desktop with a humongous cooler. I can easily imagine that it can dissipate 300W+ of sustained CPU power. The heatsink alone looks like it would weight around a kilogram kg and have a surface area of a small hotel lobby. And it has 3 of what looks like 17cm fans.

If you want to run a Coffee Lake Xeon at max turbo frequency at 90C, you'd need more then 120Watts of cooling power dedicated to the CPU only. That is just not going to happen in a thin and light laptop. And as to runs cooler... the way Appel designs their laptops is that it allows them to draw as much power as they thermally handle. So it doesn't matter if your CPU is more power efficient — it just means that the MBP will allow it to draw more power (and thus run faster) at the same temperature. Its not a Dell who power-throttle the CPU (at least they used to, no idea if they still do). Apple primarily temperature-throttle.

But of course, we will see. Apple might move to power-throttling as well. Looks better on paper, customer gets less, but hey, if you know that you are being screwed over, you won't complain, right?

 

[MrGunnyPT]

No, they limit the W...since the imac pro is working so great under full load without reaching 100C...an 16" MBP with 2 bigger fans , same W as the current one...means under 92C under full load...dont forget the current Vega20 MBP that runs around 7-8C cooler than the 555-560X MBP...Yes, i would pay 4500$ for an 512/1T ssd, 32 gb ram, with perfect realiable keyboard, with navi 14, 8cores , 16.4" display, 93W battery that runs under 90C under load

Here I am just trying to buy the base 16" model.. Hoping for Navi lol.. Might have to end up upgrading the GPU on Apple website

 

[Falhófnir]

Mac Pro is a desktop with a humongous cooler. I can easily imagine that it can dissipate 300W+ of sustained CPU power. The heatsink alone looks like it would weight around a kilogram kg and have a surface area of a small hotel lobby. And it has 3 of what looks like 17cm fans.

If you want to run a Coffee Lake Xeon at max turbo frequency at 90C, you'd need more then 120Watts of cooling power dedicated to the CPU only. That is just not going to happen in a thin and light laptop. And as to runs cooler... the way Appel designs their laptops is that it allows them to draw as much power as they thermally handle. So it doesn't matter if your CPU is more power efficient — it just means that the MBP will allow it to draw more power (and thus run faster) at the same temperature. Its not a Dell who power-throttle the CPU (at least they used to, no idea if they still do). Apple primarily temperature-throttle.

But of course, we will see. Apple might move to power-throttling as well. Looks better on paper, customer gets less, but hey, if you know that you are being screwed over, you won't complain, right?

Wasn't that exactly what they did with the 2019 MBP to make it behave better than the overheating mess that was the 2018?

Spoiler: video

 

[leman]

Wasn't that exactly what they did with the 2019 MBP to make it behave better than the overheating mess that was the 2018?

People say that Apple has undervolted the chips on the 2019 to get more performance. Unfortunately, I don't have a 2019 i9 model here, so I can't test it. I have a 2018 and it does not throttle, but of course, it does not perform as well as some other laptops with better cooling (for obvious reasons).

At any rate, what I was talking about can be clearly seen in appleinsider test: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...erformance-in-the-eight-core-2019-macbook-pro

You can clearly see from the power gadget screenshot that the CPU itself reaches exactly the same temps as any MBP before it (95-99C), but since it's more power-efficient, it is able to maintain higher clocks at those temperatures. And of course, it might take a bit longer to reach them.

All in all, I never understood the obsession with the temperature. I don't care at what temperature my CPU is running. I care for performance, stability as we as the temperature on the outer case. Apple deliberately designs their laptops so that internals run hotter that some competitors, but the cooling system is more efficient (=less average noise, better battery life, smaller footprint, lower outer case temperatures). It's a design trade-off, and everyone does it differently. Some workstations for instance power-throttle their CPUs to 35W sustained TDP in order to ensure stability of operation. For their customer base, it might be a right thing to do, even though you are loosing 30% or more performance compared to other solutions.

 

[fokmik]

if you care about stability, battery life, colder case and you dont understand than why is the obsession with the temp exists? ...reaching almost to 99-100C is not healthy for the components or for the battery itself...no matter what the cooling system is...IF the cooling is efficient than the cpu should never reach 99-100C...physics ...i see you want and had a lot of 12" Macbooks...
Remember...a macbook is NOT a desktop or a tower...so the cpu temp is right there with all the components ,including the battery...in a very closed and compact case

Even razer until recently they had issue with high temp and high noise...how razer fixed these things? they are placing 4 fans inside now..so yea, physics cannot be ignored

 

[leman]

if you care about stability, battery life, colder case and you dont understand than why is the obsession with the temp exists? ...reaching almost to 99-100C is not healthy for the components or for the battery itself...no matter what the cooling system is...IF the cooling is efficient than the cpu should never reach 99-100C...physics ...i see you want and had a lot of 12" Macbooks...

You know, it’s one of those “facts” that everyone knows about, but there is zero practical evidence that high CPU temperatures will have measurable impact on real-world computer lifespan. MacBook Pros for instance have been running close to their Tjunction under load since 2012 or so, but somehow their average expected lifespan is comparable to the most reliable brands out there. Sure, high temperatures increase electromigration rate and decrease the expected lifespan of the components... but frankly I don’t care if my CPU will live for 50 years or for 6 if I’m going to get a new laptop after three years anyway.

But if my memory serves me right, we already spent some time discussing this and it’s clear that both of us have our own opinions. Frankly, I don’t care much. If Apple manages to decrease the temp by 10 C without sacrificing performance, good for them. But please, not if this is marketed as a great “feature” with a $500 premium.

 

[Ma2k5]

...reaching almost to 99-100C is not healthy for the components or for the battery itself...

Do you have a source for this?

Like @leman , I am skeptical about users wanting their CPU/GPU not to go above x degrees - is there any evidence to back up the ideal tempt to circle around? Is it just old ideologues from yesteryear? I know recently Dell upped theirs for some of their laptops to maybe it isn't all bad?

 

[fokmik]

You know, it’s one of those “facts” that everyone knows about, but there is zero practical evidence that high CPU temperatures will have measurable impact on real-world computer lifespan. MacBook Pros for instance have been running close to their Tjunction under load since 2012 or so, but somehow their average expected lifespan is comparable to the most reliable brands out there. Sure, high temperatures increase electromigration rate and decrease the expected lifespan of the components... but frankly I don’t care if my CPU will live for 50 years or for 6 if I’m going to get a new laptop after three years anyway.

But if my memory serves me right, we already spent some time discussing this and it’s clear that both of us have our own opinions. Frankly, I don’t care much. If Apple manages to decrease the temp by 10 C without sacrificing performance, good for them. But please, not if this is marketed as a great “feature” with a $500 premium.

Depends of the users....pro users that run that mbp with pro apps...has their issues with battery life..
Again, macs tent to be more reliable than others (expect keyboard) but if you want an ultrabook specs, but into a bigger display and best build...15" until now you had not the option...now you do, its called Microsoft Surface Laptop 15", it runs windows but for average consumer should not count too much...since macOS has stability and issues like never before for some time now
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Do you have a source for this?

Like @leman , I am skeptical about users wanting their CPU/GPU not to go above x degrees - is there any evidence to back up the ideal tempt to circle around? Is it just old ideologues from yesteryear? I know recently Dell upped theirs for some of their laptops to maybe it isn't all bad?

Intel itself...it reset your pc/laptop/device if it goes above 100C...so if the cpu provider do not want to use the cpu above 100C its clear , not safe...so they inveted Thermal throttling. like a car..you have red limit that you can reach...but it is not safe to stay there everyday you are driving

 

[Ma2k5]

Intel itself...it reset your pc/laptop/device if it goes above 100C...so if the cpu provider do not want to use the cpu above 100C its clear , not safe...its like a car..you have red limit that you can reach...but it is not safe to stay there everyday you are driving

Intel have said it is safe to operate up to 100-105 (depending on chip), that doesn't mean that is the maximum. The maximum could be 120 but Intel has decided 100 is safe.

Look I am not saying you are right or wrong about 100 degrees not being good or bad, it is that Intel doesn't say it is bad and I was wondering is there any actual evidence of it being bad other than what people on forums say?

 

[fokmik]

If you want to try for your own system...try and disable thermal throttling in the summer..see how it goes
Remember , the cpu stays on the motherboard ...

Celsius Degrees

www.rapidtables.com

So until motherboards are build from gold or some other thing that has higher temp melting , i think we should trust intel in this...i bet they did these kind of test from the 90'

 

[leman]

Depends of the users....pro users that run that mbp with pro apps...has their issues with battery life..

Of course, if your laptop is drawing 50W of power, no battery will last. Not sure what you are trying to say

Intel itself...it reset your pc/laptop/device if it goes above 100C...so if the cpu provider do not want to use the cpu above 100C its clear , not safe...so they inveted Thermal throttling. like a car..you have red limit that you can reach...but it is not safe to stay there everyday you are driving

At the same time Intel says that running at 100C is perfectly safe. Every seen a MacBook Pro shut down because of high temperatures? I haven’t either - and I have supervised close to 100 MBPs over last 8 years in an environment where users would let them run at 100% for days.

 

[fokmik]

Really?? you never seen an macbook pro shut down/reset?? i see all the time 2012 r MBP with dGPU in the summer shut down after video editing for some time ...To let a mac run 100% for days...100% of what of cpu usage?Why people buy laptops to run them at 100% cpu for days and not buy mac mini/mac pros/racks. I forgot to mention i speak here about 15" MBP that has dGPU also and runs hot also, not those with just cpu and igpu, those without dgpu are far more realilble for obvious reasons
Of course Intel says that because they tested for decades...that was an answer for our pal Ma2k5

 

[leman]

Really?? you never seen an macbook pro shut down/reset?? i see all the time 2012 r MBP with dGPU in the summer shut down after video editing for some time

My guess would be that your laptop is defective.

...To let a mac run 100% for days...100% of what of cpu usage?Why people buy laptops to run them at 100% cpu for days and not buy mac mini/mac pros/racks.

Because we only issue laptops for our research stuff and they are too lazy to set up supercomputer workflows. I also ran simulations on my 2012 15" for my PhD thesis, sometimes for five days in a row without a pause. And I am talking about 100% CPU utilisation. Its' not optimal, but it does work if you need it.

 

[MrGunnyPT]

What graphic options are looking at for the upcoming 16"? Will Apple finally have Vega or Navi as base?.... 560x is ancient Polaris tech these days

 

[leman]

What graphic options are looking at for the upcoming 16"? Will Apple finally have Vega or Navi as base?.... 560x is ancient Polaris tech these days

My prediction: Navi 14 as base, Navi 14 with full cores and some HBM flavor in high-end.

 

[MrGunnyPT]

My prediction: Navi 14 as base, Navi 14 with full cores and some HBM flavor in high-end.

Count me in if Navi 14 is base.. Will definitely upgrade for something a bit higher and I can finally play world of Warcraft and work on the very same machine which is pretty awesome.

I still somehow think Navi 12 will be base..

 

[leman]

Count me in if Navi 14 is base.. Will definitely upgrade for something a bit higher and I can finally play world of Warcraft and work on the very same machine which is pretty awesome.

I still somehow think Navi 12 will be base..

Navi 12 is the upcoming big chip, Navi 14 is the small one (aka. RX5500)

 

[Ma2k5]

Really?? you never seen an macbook pro shut down/reset?? i see all the time 2012 r MBP with dGPU in the summer shut down after video editing for some time ...To let a mac run 100% for days...100% of what of cpu usage?Why people buy laptops to run them at 100% cpu for days and not buy mac mini/mac pros/racks. I forgot to mention i speak here about 15" MBP that has dGPU also and runs hot also, not those with just cpu and igpu, those without dgpu are far more realilble for obvious reasons
Of course Intel says that because they tested for decades...that was an answer for our pal Ma2k5

Apple does not run their chips hotter than Intel recommended, so your posts are moot. Without any evidence, your fear of 100 degrees is irrational at best. Intel has not said "Please keep your CPU less than 90" or anything to that effect.

 

[Ener Ji]

a lot of laptops are packing at least a rtx 2060. i returned a predator helios 300 with 1660 ti while i confirmed that windows is now an even bigger mess than it used to be. the 560x is weak compared to what a lot of laptops are packing.

The new Navi mobile GPU should be competitive with the 2060 mobile. We'll find out soon enough when benchmarks are published. I agree the 560x needs to be retired - it's basically the same GPU Apple has been shipping since 2016.

 

[leman]

The new Navi mobile GPU should be competitive with the 2060 mobile.

More like the 1660, but you are not that far off. The 2060 mobile is still a 80W GPU, and Apple is not going to put anything like that in their laptops.

 

[SRTM]

So the reveal will most likely just be a press release?
Why are people saying it will be next week? I can't wait any longer!

 

[MrGunnyPT]

More like the 1660, but you are not that far off. The 2060 mobile is still a 80W GPU, and Apple is not going to put anything like that in their laptops.

1660 is more than enough.. Say for example game in World of Warcraft or CVI VI at 1920x1080.

At least that's what my use for that.. And connecting to external dual 4k displays
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So the reveal will most likely just be a press release?
Why are people saying it will be next week? I can't wait any longer!

If no event then yeah that seems the only possible outcome out of this.. It' s a Prosumer computer at the end of the day...

 

[turbineseaplane]

Release the scissory beast!

 

[fokmik]

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Apple does not run their chips hotter than Intel recommended, so your posts are moot. Without any evidence, your fear of 100 degrees is irrational at best. Intel has not said "Please keep your CPU less than 90" or anything to that effect.

When did i said that?..jesus...what i wrote and what you understood...

What graphic options are looking at for the upcoming 16"? Will Apple finally have Vega or Navi as base?.... 560x is ancient Polaris tech these days

vega 20 as default its minimum...and navi for extra 200 or 300$
So i guess if no information in 1 hour about invitations...that means no event...maybe an press release Thursday or Friday, or next week

 

[Ma2k5]

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When did i said that?..jesus...what i wrote and what you understood...


vega 20 as default its minimum...and navi for extra 200 or 300$
So i guess if no information in 1 hour about invitations...that means no event...maybe an press release Thursday or Friday, or next week

You said:

"reaching almost to 99-100C is not healthy for the components or for the battery itself...no matter what the cooling system is. "

You was asked to provide evidence that this was the case.

You then rambled about Intel saying this. Intel DID NOT say reaching 99-100c is not healthy, they specified max safe operating temps which Apple abide by.

In conclusion, you have no evidence to back up your original claim so please stop embarrassing yourself.