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The first post of this thread is a WikiPost and can be edited by anyone with the appropiate permissions. Your edits will be public.

What standard of design should The New Old Web, or Web 1.1, ideally adhere to?

  • < HTML4, CSS2, no JS, no embedded media (Closer to 90's Web)

    Votes: 14 16.5%
  • =< HTML4, CSS2, frugal JS, frugally embedded media (Closer to Early 2000's Web)

    Votes: 67 78.8%
  • Something else (Post an alternative)

    Votes: 4 4.7%

  • Total voters
    85

lepidotós

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2021
677
750
Marinette, Arizona
I made this mockup of an EveryMac-style site made specifically targetting Power Mac/PowerBook users running Classilla (though it should be easy for Frogfind to convert it for older browsers) to try to exercize my web design and figure out what I'm doing for the big one. It doesn't look amazing, but at least I'm shaking off some of the rust. Max-width is 500px so even a 512x384 monitor should have room for the whole page and a scroll bar.​
Picture 11.png
 
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Kitsune86

macrumors newbie
Feb 15, 2022
5
8
I don’t own a retro Mac, I’m actually a Windows user. But never the less have found this thread absolutely fascinating.

I love the idea of revitalizing the old the web, moving away from centralization and creating accessible pages that any device, even those 20+ years old can access.

So I’ve decided to make my own personal blog / projects site within the 1.1 specification.



 
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lepidotós

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2021
677
750
Marinette, Arizona
Netscape Composer will work, as will StoneDesign Create, Adobe DreamWeaver, really just look for any web publishing program from ca. 2000. Mac OS X DP2 even comes with one, albiet a basic one. You will also need to make sure that you host the website on a server that doesn't force encryption, especially not TLS 1.3. Neocities is out, as are Wix and Squarespace -- probably the best option is to get a Mac mini or Raspberry Pi or the like, register a domain name, and host it yourself. That's what I'm going to be doing with my websites -- hosting them on my Gigabit Ethernet (because I can) with domain names I bought myself.​
 
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Doq

macrumors 6502a
Dec 8, 2019
535
798
The Lab DX
You might even be able to get away with older versions of iWeb. Though if you want the absolute lightest experience out of your Web 1.1 project, you're best off building it yourself with a text editor and a web standards resource. I did this with ame.lmao.rip (and even its beefy older sister ameowli.dev) and it loads instantly, even on my Titanium's paltry 802.11b wifi.
 

Kitsune86

macrumors newbie
Feb 15, 2022
5
8
Update on my Web 1.1 personal project. I deployed it to a live web server then installed It Windows 2000 on a virtual machine. I wanted to actually also test it in something like OSX 10.1 for periods accurateness but PowerPC emulation appears a bit above me it just kept throwing error at me. So still working on testing 1.1 compatibility with old mac browsers.

I tested Netscape 3.4 and 4.3 on Win2k and 4.4 rendered the page perfectly fine. Oddly 3.4 wouldn’t display any images at all despite my best efforts.

Future tests:
old versions of Safari
Maybe the old “Safari on Windows” builds
What browser would you all recommend testing on OS9 if I get that working?

Here’s video of current progress

I took it to it's illogical conclusion:
 

MysticCow

macrumors 68000
May 27, 2013
1,564
1,760
You might even be able to get away with older versions of iWeb. Though if you want the absolute lightest experience out of your Web 1.1 project, you're best off building it yourself with a text editor and a web standards resource. I did this with ame.lmao.rip (and even its beefy older sister ameowli.dev) and it loads instantly, even on my Titanium's paltry 802.11b wifi.

I use the all black template on iWeb. Works quite well that way.
 

lepidotós

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2021
677
750
Marinette, Arizona
I wanted to actually also test it in something like OSX 10.1 for periods accurateness but PowerPC emulation appears a bit above me it just kept throwing error at me.
Your website looks 2016 as hell, but I don't know if that's what you mean. The simplest and most accurate option is to just... get an iBook G3. Puma is a pretty slow OS in general, so maybe get a 700MHz translucent since it's the fastest G3 that will run it, or a PowerBook G4 500MHz if you think you might need vector processing, but it'll feel slower than the 700MHz G3 otherwise considering it's the same chip with AltiVec bolted on. Not only will it have the right resolution, but the colors and brightness will look how they will on other people's genuine Macs.​
Future tests:
old versions of Safari
Maybe the old “Safari on Windows” builds
What browser would you all recommend testing on OS9 if I get that working?
Classilla 9.3.3 is generally the gold standard, but IE5 and Netscape 4 both come with it last I checked.​
 
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Kitsune86

macrumors newbie
Feb 15, 2022
5
8
Your website looks 2016 as hell, but I don't know if that's what you mean. The simplest and most accurate option is to just... get an iBook G3. Puma is a pretty slow OS in general, so maybe get a 700MHz translucent since it's the fastest G3 that will run it, or a PowerBook G4 500MHz if you think you might need vector processing, but it'll feel slower than the 700MHz G3 otherwise considering it's the same chip with AltiVec bolted on. Not only will it have the right resolution, but the colors and brightness will look how they will on other people's genuine Macs.

Classilla 9.3.3 is generally the gold standard, but IE5 and Netscape 4 both come with it last I checked.​
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions especially since in terms of Operating System and such I'm not exactly in my wheelhouse here.

Just picking up an iBook for something like a hobby Web 1.1 project isn't exactly feasible. From a cursory glance you'd be dropping $200 - $300 CDN for a used imported unit and here in the Canadian Midwest they don't really appear to be a readily available thing.

I love the idea of getting into retro computing beyond just emulators on my Windows Workstation but there comes the realities of physical space (I don't want to fill my apartment with computers) and spending that much money on a hobby machine just really isn't plausable.

Its why I was looking to turn to emulation
 
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lepidotós

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2021
677
750
Marinette, Arizona
Since you're in Canada, @B S Magnet might be able to help you on that, at least the latter concern. Though, honestly, a 14 or 15 inch laptop really isn't a huge space suck, mine is pretty comfortable even in the probably 30 square foot side room of my grandma's house.

10.2 Jaguar is generally considered the best of the original trilogy as it were, and it runs on a wider range of hardware. 10.3 Panther is even faster, but it's also much more modern. 10.0 Cheetah is a complete waste of time besides historical curiosity.
Mac OS 8.6 also runs Classilla, and is often considered faster, so it might be a good option regardless of either emulation or hardware.
10.4 and 10.5 aren't really "retro" in any way. Especially not in web browsing, they both have HTML5 capable web browsers (InterWebPPC and Leopard WebKit), so if you're looking to test compatibility they'd be probably a footnote for thoroughness.​
 
Since you're in Canada, @B S Magnet might be able to help you on that, at least the latter concern. Though, honestly, a 14 or 15 inch laptop really isn't a huge space suck, mine is pretty comfortable even in the probably 30 square foot side room of my grandma's house.​

If you’re in a city like Winnipeg, Sk’toon or Regina, @Kitsune86 , you might try check to see whether Bunz (a Canada-only trading/barter exchange site) is up and running locally. Also, I’ve been told another place to look locally for old Macs is FB marketplace (I’ve never joined FB, so I can’t vouch for or attest to its utility). Also, if there are any Value Villages or Goodwills or Sally Anns in your town, those can also be a place to find old Macs (I’ve found at least one iBook this way for, like $35). And come May, keep an eye out for relatively nearby yard sales.

Most importantly if you’re looking for something cheap or even free to tinker on and explore, the key is to have patience and persistence — namely, keeping an ear open and checking in regularly for stuff which shows up for trade or sale or, again, even free. Even in unlikely places like eBay, I’ve managed to find Canadian-origin used PowerBooks for cheap (and is how I happened upon my $25 A1138, which came to, like, $40 with shipping, and originated in Kelowna, while my $65 A1139, also about $15 in shipping, came from Scarborough).

Another thing is try not to expect a specific Mac model to turn up: you’ll frustrate yourself whilst waiting. Just see what comes up locally, and if it’s something right for you (like, will it run what you want to run?) and something you can transport (or have transported) easily to your place for a good price, then get that one.

10.2 Jaguar is generally considered the best of the original trilogy as it were, and it runs on a wider range of hardware. 10.3 Panther is even faster, but it's also much more modern. 10.0 Cheetah is a complete waste of time besides historical curiosity.
Mac OS 8.6 also runs Classilla, and is often considered faster, so it might be a good option regardless of either emulation or hardware.
10.4 and 10.5 aren't really "retro" in any way. Especially not in web browsing, they both have HTML5 capable web browsers (InterWebPPC and Leopard WebKit), so if you're looking to test compatibility they'd be probably a footnote for thoroughness.​

Panther is a transitional OS X build and kind of a curiosity in of itself, though having used it back then, prior to Tiger existing, I don’t really miss it. I mean, it’s fairly stable and quick on older hardware, but what one can do with it now is fairly constrained, at least relative to Tiger. Tiger, meanwhile, is probably the most versatile OS X build for earlier G3 and G4 Macs, and for the fastest of the PowerPC Macs (and with a decent GPU), Leopard can be a big step forward from there. I’m still using G3, G4, and G5 Macs at home which I’ve had for up to 15 years, and they still do well with what they’re designed to do — no “retrocomputing” involved.
 
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Macbookprodude

Suspended
Jan 1, 2018
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Hi, so I tested the new web 1.1 websites on OS 9 and they work rather well, and fast too - This is what its all about, the web should be like this ! As far as youtube is concerned, this really does not interest me as much on OS 9 as back when OS 9 was official as everyday OS I am not certain if even Youtube existed at all. I at least, don't remember using it when I had my sawtooth G4 back in 1999-2001, in either case this is making it so exciting that I may get back into web design and blogging using web 1.1 standards. Can someone recommend for me a good program to create web 1.1 websites under OS 9? I really want to use OS 9 as my everyday OS. Call it nostalgic aspiration.
 

whiskersld

macrumors member
Mar 3, 2020
52
59
Gonna suggest spacehey.. it’s a MySpace clone that works pretty well on older browsers. Privacy oriented too
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Jun 17, 2014
5,244
7,880
Lincolnshire, UK
Gonna suggest spacehey.. it’s a MySpace clone that works pretty well on older browsers. Privacy oriented too
Post 207 :)

 

Macbookprodude

Suspended
Jan 1, 2018
3,306
898
So, with web 1.1, are we making any progress by trying to get the internet changed ? Surely, the anti-1.1 web people are threatened by the growth of return to 1.1 web standards. In 2022, I would like to see 1.1 dominate again and end javascript.
 

whiskersld

macrumors member
Mar 3, 2020
52
59
So, with web 1.1, are we making any progress by trying to get the internet changed ? Surely, the anti-1.1 web people are threatened by the growth of return to 1.1 web standards. In 2022, I would like to see 1.1 dominate again and end javascript.
Will never dominate the web, web 1.1 will always be a smaller subculture. But that isnt bad at all
 

Macbookprodude

Suspended
Jan 1, 2018
3,306
898
iteroni.com is a good replacement for ytprivate, only invidious repo that ive found that still works on classic macs
This does not work using interwebPPC as I am getting an error regarding " No video with supported format and mime type not found", that is: it does not work for interwebPPC, but LWK it does, strange. if not, maybe I am doing something wrong - webrowser is interwebPPC
 
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Macbookprodude

Suspended
Jan 1, 2018
3,306
898
@originaldotexe That is impressive. I'll give it a try on Safari 4 when I can and then add it in depending on the results.

What's more, it looks like different groups on the Internet coming up with their own renditions of "Web 1.1" are all the rage!

This is a start, but it has to be more. actually, I want web 1.1 to be large like regular web.
 
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