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The first post of this thread is a WikiPost and can be edited by anyone with the appropiate permissions. Your edits will be public.

What standard of design should The New Old Web, or Web 1.1, ideally adhere to?

  • < HTML4, CSS2, no JS, no embedded media (Closer to 90's Web)

    Votes: 14 16.3%
  • =< HTML4, CSS2, frugal JS, frugally embedded media (Closer to Early 2000's Web)

    Votes: 68 79.1%
  • Something else (Post an alternative)

    Votes: 4 4.7%

  • Total voters
    86

z970

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
4,543
@readyselectstart That's a good start. Here are a couple of thoughts ...

o As long as the code is sufficiently optimized to render quickly and efficiently, excess CSS is not so much an issue as use of CSS3 is, similar to HTML5. Therefore, CSS should be limited to v2.x and not hindered in quantity if the Web developer wishes to get creative.

Remember, we're not solely targeting '90s and millennium platforms here; we're also accounting for mid-'000s environments too. How the website is structured in which particular fashion, is up to the Web developer's discretion on what era they'd like to emulate.

o I think limiting every image to < 1 MB files might be a little challenging to implement, but is admittedly probably a better practice in the long run. At least for embedded images; perhaps larger files can be merely linked to their source?

o I disagree on the use of cookies as they are not an inherent element of the modern Internet, and their use can still be employed in interesting ways to even very limited platforms. As an example, Cornica.org is a perfectly Web 1.1-compliant website yet still optionally makes minimal use of cookies for a site feature (which if it didn't, it would need to resort to JS instead).

Perhaps to still remain in compliance with the GDPR, Web developers can include a very small and unobtrusive notice detailing exactly what their minimal use of optional cookies do, and only when the user is presented with a choice to enable them for some site feature, like persistent changes.

o I'm a little hesitant on the purpose of Web 1.1S, primarily being that personal / sensitive data should really not be involved in what is essentially an unofficial community-supported effort to attempt to revive a small amount of the user-facing magic that went into the original Internet.

And if personal / sensitive data is then brought into the mix using outdated security standards just to remain compliant with said unofficial effort, that could not only put users' data at risk for interception, but also for potential legal ramifications against the Web developer should the worst occur. So for that reason, it's probably a better idea to just disallow SSL 3.0 and TLS 1.0 entirely, as well as the handling of any personal / sensitive data whatsoever, and just keep it clean instead. I know I mentioned in an earlier post that SSL 3.0 could be used if determined absolutely necessary, but I never mentioned the transfer of personal data being a potential cause.

But then again, you may also be referring to modern SSL and TLS specifications, which given the context of the document, was not immediately clear. In which case, if websites using modern versions of SSL and TLS can only be accessed by modern browsers usually running on new hardware (while the use of HTML5 and CSS3 is simultaneously disallowed), then what becomes the objective? To have a clean and efficient site infrastructure (which, tragically, should be the current standard anyway and not the exception), or to be able to claim a new chunk of the Internet for the legendary platforms of yore?

In my opinion, websites for modern platforms using modern protocols could certainly be inspired by the Web 1.1 specification, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they must receive a certification too, for lack of a better term.

-

Now with that being said, I definitely have to find the time to update the WikiPost so that this could all be detailed a little better and be clearer to understand. Still, I should also reiterate that I think your specification document is well done and a very good effort overall. Keep going! :)
 
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Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Jun 17, 2014
5,249
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Lincolnshire, UK
How the website is structured in which particular fashion, is up to the Web developer's discretion on what era they'd like to emulate.
I must say, on veegeeayy.com I specifically didn't want it to look retro at all (although inevitably due to limited resources it kind of does.)

Personally, I think sites deliberately trying to ape the style of the web of yesteryear are a step in the wrong direction - or at least will keep things in the retro/nostalgia camp.

It would be more of a challenge to create sites that look contemporary whilst using the old standards but I'm aware of the difficulties...(lack of) font choice being one of them.
 
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z970

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
4,543
@Dronecatcher I'm sorry, that wasn't supposed to imply that Web developers are supposed to look to the past in order to have Web 1.1 sites, it just seems to be a common route of action among them is all.

I actually agree with you on creating fresh-feeling, entirely new sites; although reFlash happens to look similar to mid-2000s apple.com, it wasn't purposefully designed that way. Quite the contrary, I thought it was a refreshingly clean, simple, and breathable design that I haven't seen often in websites before, and that's simply the direction I wanted to take.

This makes me wonder what the scalability situation is like for Web 1.1. Since SSL and TLS more or less cannot be used as per the agreed standard (therefore in many ways separating it from the modern Internet landscape), it's a possibility that this will regardless effectively lock it to personal and novelty uses only.

Of course, I certainly don't want to frame it in such a light, but it does make one ponder where exactly it fits.

Ultimately in its own category, I suppose.
 

Macbookprodude

Suspended
Jan 1, 2018
3,306
898
Bottom Line: I am for 1.1 of the web and strongly support 1.2 and 1.1 TLS for main browsing.. and for banking sites, stronger 1.3
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
4,543
o Added FrogRSS to News and Information Sites

o Began work on the revamped Wiki

-

I'm considering adding the Russian YouTube site, but I'm also wondering whether it would be a valuable and standard-compliant addition to the directory, or just a convenient link for future reference ...
 
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z970

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
4,543
I've recently rediscovered this thread ...


Looks like Web 1.1 was over 3 years late, and sorely needed too.
 

Slix

macrumors 68000
Mar 24, 2010
1,600
2,414
I've recently rediscovered this thread ...


Looks like Web 1.1 was over 3 years late, and sorely needed too.
It's crazy to me to think back to the early 2010s and how easily older computers could handle web browsing compared to now. I was using G4s running stock Safari in 2011 with little issues on the "modern web" at the time, and it's true: the web doesn't look or act that different than that time, it's just slower now.
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
4,543
Cool news all, The Old Net has integrated FrogFind and 68k.news into their services:

Picture 1.png

Picture 2.png


It's just a shame it's all MSM ...

On another note, the thread poll is back open (because why not?), so anyone who did not state their piece back in April can do so now.
 

Macbookprodude

Suspended
Jan 1, 2018
3,306
898
This is so cool.. And i TAKE it even it will work under OS 9 with Classila or any OS 9 browser to browse "simple" internet ?
 

MysticCow

macrumors 68000
May 27, 2013
1,564
1,760
I gleefully call this The Retro Site, since it was made in iWeb 2011 (last version I think...). I kind of prefer it to the Google Site, because iWeb is surprisingly robust.

I have found that videos directly hosted there will not play on my Android phone for some reason. So a disclaimer needed to be placed directing those to the Google Site, where it's all done via YouTube embedding.
 

Riku7

macrumors regular
Feb 18, 2014
208
95
Found a goldmine for music people:

Sound On Sound music technology magazine has a collection of articles from its issues online via the Internet Archive, and they have announced this on their own site as well because they endorse it but probably no longer host the actual archives themselves. The archive goes from 1986 to 2014.

As I got my vintage Macs, I've been increasingly interested in how people used to do things back in those days; My own interest in music technology practically stops to mid-2000s (after which we have different ideas of good taste) so even if some articles there aren't about technology, they represent and oldschool way of thinking that I prefer and respect more; Maybe before everyone was a Youtuber you could simply trust the quality of publications a bit more, whereas today it can be really hard to filter good stuff from the sea of mediocrity.
Anyway, if you're interested in music production with vintage Macs and wasn't doing it at the time, I've noticed that it's really hard to do research on things online because most old forums no longer exist, or they were scarce to begin with. But reading old Sound On Sound not only takes you for a trip to earlier eras, but you'll learn a lot about what software and hardware people used, how they made their setups work, what home and pro studios were like, how some hit songs of the time were made, and which annoyances you're coming across now aren't an indication of you being stupid, but of those annoyances having been an issue to everyone even back in the day.

Sound On Sound archive, seems to work with iBook clamshell running OS 9.

Forgot to add: You can view that archive as is, but trying to open an actual article with Classilla gives the "cannot communicate securely because they have no common encryption algorithms" error.
The way to get around this is to add "http://theoldnet.com/get?url=" to the beginning of the article's actual URL, and you're good to go! OS X shouldn't need this trick.



Another thing…
Who remembers teletext? I don't know which countries have let it go by now, but I recently found out that in my country, both the national broadcasting company as well as the largest commercial channel have an online browser version of their teletext sites. Furthermore, they both have a plain text version too! They're super quick to navigate, they'll have the highlights of local, national, and world news, sports, weather, flight and traffic info, TV guide, that sort of stuff. And because of the brevity, absolutely no clickbait titles or mentions of b-list celebrities.
I have no idea what to search for for English-speaking countries, but anyone who does: It might be worth exploring if your country has a teletext page online. Content in English tends to be internationally usable, so a link could be included here.
 
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Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Jun 17, 2014
5,249
7,887
Lincolnshire, UK
Found a goldmine for music people:

That's great. I too like referring back to SOS - particularly when they put PPCs through their paces with DAWs of the day.

I also fondly remember teletext services and I'm fascinated by the limits and therefore creativity of low resolution graphics - enough to do two designs for my Redbubble shop (any Blake's 7 or Manic Street Preachers fans will comprehend...)

B7Ceefax.png


MCE.png
 

Riku7

macrumors regular
Feb 18, 2014
208
95
I also fondly remember teletext services and I'm fascinated by the limits and therefore creativity of low resolution graphics - enough to do two designs for my Redbubble shop (any Blake's 7 or Manic Street Preachers fans will comprehend...)
Oh that's so cool. We never had pictures like that. Somehow I have the feeling that those were based on photographs that were forced to this bit depth, then possibly written to the teletext system by hand row by row.

For Ceefax I can only find this and it sure has the current news on it... This simulator is far too hi-tech, it most likely wouldn't work with old machines. However, that data must come from somewhere, so if anyone wanted to create a plain text Ceefax, it should be possible by stripping the graphics off of this thing.
Here's an example of what news headlines as the plain text version look like over here; Small enough to comfortably fit 800x600 screens. Click Kuvaversio to see the same page in graphic teletext layout.
 
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originaldotexe

macrumors 6502
Jun 12, 2020
257
436
Kentucky
my site uses a tiny bit of javascript to embed a separate .html file (header.html and footer.html) into each page. i guess that means it can't be posted here?
 
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