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haralds

macrumors 68030
Jan 3, 2014
2,984
1,247
Silicon Valley, CA
My usage on the McBook Pro M1 and previous Mac Pro was a bit under 2TB, so I bought an M1 Ultra with 64GB/4TB. I added a permanently connected OWC Envoy Express with a 4TB M2 for less frequently used project files and VMS. The M2 performance is matched to the Envoy Express running at about 1500MB/s, which is adequate for the use case and cheaper.

I also have had an Archgon Premium Aluminum External USB 3.0 UHD 4K Blu-Ray Writer Super Drive with the firmware updated to "LibreDrive" for use with MakeMKV. It reads and write the occasional VCD, DVD, and BluRay including UHD.

I have a Synology DS920+ with Expansion Bay, M2 cache, and 8GB of RAM (will be 20GB next week for a couple of VMs I use for Intel stuff.) It's only 1GB per Ethernet port, which are bonded to get max available throughput for wired and WIFI 6 access. The Synology has a few USB3 drives for additional backup should the RAID not live up to its promise.

The Synology is the main storage pool for all my systems and also for TimeMachine backup. I also use a a TimeCapsule upgraded to 10TB for a second TimeMachine plus a 10TB USB drive for CarbonCopy clones.

There are a few other systems in the house to support my wife, Zoom on the TV, etc., but the Mac Studio M1 Ultra 64GB/4TB and MacBook Pro 13" 16GB/2TB are my main drivers.
 
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artbyroyal

macrumors newbie
Nov 9, 2020
9
3
I'm artist who's been using a 2012 Mac Pro 5,1 Cheese Grater for years and have decided to purchase a Mac Studio M1 Ultra to replace it. Currently I have 6 SSDs mounted on 3 PCIe cards in the 5,1 MP and I thought that the most logical step for me is to pick up a Sonnet Echo III Desktop Thunderbolt 3 to PCIe Card Expansion System and just transfer the 3 PCIe cards with the SSDs, over to it and continue on as I have been. Any thoughts? Does that sound like a good idea or am I missing something?
 

F-Train

macrumors 68020
Apr 22, 2015
2,272
1,762
NYC & Newfoundland
I'm artist who's been using a 2012 Mac Pro 5,1 Cheese Grater for years and have decided to purchase a Mac Studio M1 Ultra to replace it. Currently I have 6 SSDs mounted on 3 PCIe cards in the 5,1 MP and I thought that the most logical step for me is to pick up a Sonnet Echo III Desktop Thunderbolt 3 to PCIe Card Expansion System and just transfer the 3 PCIe cards with the SSDs, over to it and continue on as I have been. Any thoughts? Does that sound like a good idea or am I missing something?

Just be aware of the fact that the read and write speed of the 6 SSDs will be capped by the speed of the Thunderbolt 3/4 port that you connect the Sonnet enclosure to. This basically means a maximum read and write speed of about 2700MB/s.

Also, note that the Sonnet enclosure is PCIe 3.0 and that PCIe 4.0 enclosures are coming, although when I asked about timing, Sonnet declined to tell me when. However, this won't change the Thunderbolt cap, and I assume that your current SSDs are 3.0 anyway.
 

atonaldenim

macrumors regular
Jun 11, 2018
238
309
I've also had it do it while transferring files from HDD RAID to the Studio, so both ends definitely awake.
Hey @HobeSoundDarryl sorry to hear about the USB RAID troubles, did you say what model of RAID enclosure you’re having problems with?

It has its own hardware RAID controller, it’s not using any software RAID / drivers? You’ve checked with the manufacturer for firmware updates etc?

I have an OWC USB-C RAID I can do some testing with when my Studio Ultra arrives in the next few days. Also have TB3 Thunderbay 4 RAIDs which use SoftRAID for RAID5. I’m curious to test USB drive performance myself.

This will be my first M1 Mac, I’ve read that the USB4 / Thunderbolt 4 controllers on the Apple Silicon Macs have worse USB 3 drive performance compared to Intel Macs. (see this thread) But that the Thunderbolt performance (and USB 4 performance?) is pretty good. It could be that there is an incompatibility of some kind between the USB / RAID chips in your enclosure and the M1’s USB controllers.

A colleague of mine was having trouble recently with frequent disconnects on a new USB 3.0 external HDD and an Intel Mac, turns out the issue was a USB-A to USB-C adapter she was using, the problem went away when we bought her a new USB-B to USB-C cable. But sounds like you’ve already tried different cables with no luck.
 

MiG007

macrumors member
May 14, 2015
95
68
A colleague of mine was having trouble recently with frequent disconnects on a new USB 3.0 external HDD and an Intel Mac, turns out the issue was a USB-A to USB-C adapter she was using, the problem went away when we bought her a new USB-B to USB-C cable. But sounds like you’ve already tried different cables with no luck.
Probably unrelated, but IMHO the manufactured specs on USB-C connections (plug and socket) seem to be all over the place. I see some devices where the plug doesn't go in as far in one device compared to another. Move a dock slightly and sometimes drives get disconnected. Just a feeling that tolerances built-in to the USB-C connector spec aren't being followed or the spec is too generous. I'm not an engineer I just get various drives from clients that I have to copy from on a regular basis.
 
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HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Hey @HobeSoundDarryl sorry to hear about the USB RAID troubles, did you say what model of RAID enclosure you’re having problems with?

It has its own hardware RAID controller, it’s not using any software RAID / drivers? You’ve checked with the manufacturer for firmware updates etc?

I have an OWC USB-C RAID I can do some testing with when my Studio Ultra arrives in the next few days. Also have TB3 Thunderbay 4 RAIDs which use SoftRAID for RAID5. I’m curious to test USB drive performance myself.

This will be my first M1 Mac, I’ve read that the USB4 / Thunderbolt 4 controllers on the Apple Silicon Macs have worse USB 3 drive performance compared to Intel Macs. (see this thread) But that the Thunderbolt performance (and USB 4 performance?) is pretty good. It could be that there is an incompatibility of some kind between the USB / RAID chips in your enclosure and the M1’s USB controllers.

A colleague of mine was having trouble recently with frequent disconnects on a new USB 3.0 external HDD and an Intel Mac, turns out the issue was a USB-A to USB-C adapter she was using, the problem went away when we bought her a new USB-B to USB-C cable. But sounds like you’ve already tried different cables with no luck.

Unfortunately, mine is a OWC RAID, purchased new in 2018. Like many of their dual drive boxes, it includes a selectable switch to choose the desired RAID-type (I set it to RAID-0 when purchased) and then formatted it APFS with Disk Utility. It works perfectly fine and remains consistently connected to Intel Macs using the same cable. However, I did try other cables too, including a hope that maybe using a USB-C cable instead of USB-A might make a difference (both to USB-B on the RAID end). No luck.

I hope you will post your test results as I continue to look for a (stay-connected) RAID enclosure I can buy that doesn't require me to buy hard drives too (unlike a Lacie HDD-RAID some have claimed works fine).

After ruling out every controllable variable I could, I reached the "give up" point and purchased OWC Ministack STX and installed ONE large HDD in it, giving up about half of the total storage in the RAID for a single drive setup. That connects via Thunderbolt and has remained consistently connected since (7 days now). All kinds of single drive enclosures I was testing to try to rule out faulty Studio USB ports- including pretty old enclosures- all worked just fine during testing: no unexpected ejections. Apparently what U in USB means for single drive enclosures fully applies. Apparently U is just hit or miss with multi-HDD RAID enclosures. This thread is packed with LOTS of people seeming to have no such issue with multi-SSD RAID enclosures, so an issue seems focused in on multi-drive, HDD RAIDs.

Ministack STX is independently powered, so as one more test I could do, I plugged the RAID into one of the Ministack Thunderbolt ports to see if maybe it- as middleman- would keep the RAID consistently connected. A hypothesis was maybe Studio is overly tuned on minimizing power that it would drop below some threshold needed to keep the link to the RAID, driving "unexpected eject." Inserting Ministack in between Studio and RAID might not have what I presume to be the same bug. However, this made no difference. Ministack and the single drive within remained/remains consistently connected, RAID would be available as normal for up to about 3 hours or so and then randomly "unexpected eject" even if Studio definitely did not sleep during that time. No big surprise: I had already tried a few other "middlemen" powered hubs on hand but this offered the unique test of a Studio to STX connection via Thunderbolt cable.

Having attempted to rule out all I can, I'm left with only the unique variables of Studio (brand new Mac), M1 (vs. Intel), Monterey (vs. earlier versions of macOS running on those Intel Macs). Every other USB device I connect to Studio seems to work as expected, so I'm heavily doubting something wrong with Studio hardware. I also ruled out bad single port by trying ALL of them (the 2 on the front too). If the problem is Studio hardware, I think the whine would be much louder and diverse.

Similarly, M1 Macs have been out for a long time and obviously most people are having no issues with attached drives from third parties. So I'm doubting the issue is hardware related to M1.

That leaves Monterey. I wish I could install pre-Big Sur macOS on Studio to simply see what would happen with this RAID if Big Sur and Monterey were fully ruled out. My strongest belief is that the issue is a macOS bug(s), probably around since Big Sur given what I read online trying to resolve this issue.

I did speak to OWC tech support and interpreted the exchange to mean that Apple is well aware and that the bug is in macOS Monterey. But of course, the easiest thing in the world to do in situations like this is to deflect. So Apple can blame third party hardware and third party hardware can blame Apple... and/or both can blame cables (though I've tested through 3, all of which are fine when connecting same hardware to Intel Macs). A consumer has no way to really figure out where the actual issue lies if that consumer has ruled out everything they can test themselves.

Could be Studio. Could be M1 Ultra. Could be Monterey. Could be OWC enclosure. I want to believe the U in USB is actually literal... which it certainly seems to be with everything else I've connected and tested, including some near-antique USB enclosures. This RAID with the same cable remains consistently connected to Intel Macs running pre-Big Sur macOS. That makes me doubt the "blame OWC enclosure" option. It does work just fine connected to Studio for some period of time... up to about 3 hours... before unexpected eject. If I turn it off and back on, I may be good to go for another up to about 3 hour span of time.

I hope your OWC HDD-RAID remains consistently connected to your new Studio. With us both having the SAME Mac, I'm very interested to know how that goes. I'll hope it goes better with your specific OWC RAID box.
 
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RumorConsumer

macrumors 68000
Jun 16, 2016
1,639
1,151
Hey @HobeSoundDarryl sorry to hear about the USB RAID troubles, did you say what model of RAID enclosure you’re having problems with?

It has its own hardware RAID controller, it’s not using any software RAID / drivers? You’ve checked with the manufacturer for firmware updates etc?

I have an OWC USB-C RAID I can do some testing with when my Studio Ultra arrives in the next few days. Also have TB3 Thunderbay 4 RAIDs which use SoftRAID for RAID5. I’m curious to test USB drive performance myself.

This will be my first M1 Mac, I’ve read that the USB4 / Thunderbolt 4 controllers on the Apple Silicon Macs have worse USB 3 drive performance compared to Intel Macs. (see this thread) But that the Thunderbolt performance (and USB 4 performance?) is pretty good. It could be that there is an incompatibility of some kind between the USB / RAID chips in your enclosure and the M1’s USB controllers.

A colleague of mine was having trouble recently with frequent disconnects on a new USB 3.0 external HDD and an Intel Mac, turns out the issue was a USB-A to USB-C adapter she was using, the problem went away when we bought her a new USB-B to USB-C cable. But sounds like you’ve already tried different cables with no luck.
Interested those results of the Thunderbay 4. Are you full up with drives? Curious what the performance is like using RAID5. Thanks.
 
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atonaldenim

macrumors regular
Jun 11, 2018
238
309
I hope your OWC HDD-RAID remains consistently connected to your new Studio. With us both having the SAME Mac, I'm very interested to know how that goes. I'll hope it goes better with your specific OWC RAID box.
Okay so I received my Studio Ultra on Monday, updated it to the latest Monterey, and hooked up the OWC USB-C RAID0. It's been up for about 36 hours now (idle) and no notifications yet about the drive disconnecting, thankfully.

Darryl I'd suggest starting a new thread specifically about this problem would be the best way to get advice perhaps from other people who've run into similar problems. Some other things that have come to mind as remote possibilities:

• Power supply - Double check that it's the right PSU for the RAID, supplying enough Amps? Try a replacement if possible / hooking it up to a different power outlet / UPS if possible? Maybe the power is fluctuating in a way that doesn't bother the Intel USB controller, but triggers a disconnect for the Apple M1 USB controller?

• HDD firmware incompatibility with M1 - Try other HDDs in the same enclosure if possible? Perhaps the HDDs themselves have some kind of unusual sleep mode or something that the M1 doesn't understand.

• 3.3V PWDIS pin 3 issue - I don't think this could be it, but it came to mind.

• Loose connections - maybe the power jack or the TB/USB-C port is a little loose or getting slightly bumped, triggering the disconnect? Maybe the cable has to stretch further to reach the M1 Mac vs the Intel Mac, some kind of physical real estate issue like that. Or maybe there is some piece of lint or something in the M1's TB port interfering with the signal. Crazier things have happened to the best of us...

Anyway I'd guess that it's some kind of issue with your specific unit, OWC RAIDs are frequently used with Macs, I'm sure there are many OWC RAIDs plugged into many M1 Macs around the world, check with OWC I'm sure they'd have heard about any widespread problems. Good luck mate!
 
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HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
All those suggestions are good ones. Thank you.

However, I put either Intel Mac NOT running Monterey on my desk unhook the one cable to RAID from Studio, plug it into either Intel Mac and no problems- stably connected as it has been for several years. From that, I have to assume that It would rule out most of those except maybe firmware compatibility with M1.

Besides, the idea that it is only this one box is not true.There are MANY people with MANY boxes having this issue.

Could you identify the specific OWC model you are using? Perhaps I will buy that same one and hope for the same results.
 

atonaldenim

macrumors regular
Jun 11, 2018
238
309
All those suggestions are good ones. Thank you.

However, I put either Intel Mac NOT running Monterey on my desk unhook the one cable to RAID from Studio, plug it into either Intel Mac and no problems- stably connected as it has been for several years. From that, I have to assume that It would rule out most of those except maybe firmware compatibility with M1.

Besides, the idea that it is only this one box is not true.There are MANY people with MANY boxes having this issue.

Could you identify the specific OWC model you are using? Perhaps I will buy that same one and hope for the same results.
Yeah it’s linked in my post, the OWC Mercury Elite Pro Dual with 3-port Hub. https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-mercury-elite-pro-dual

(Inside it are 2x 8TB WD Red drives pulled from a broken 2020 WD My Book Duo, in AppleRAID 0 with the enclosure in JBOD mode so my RAID would also work in other enclosures / in my Mac Pro too.)

I did read the Apple forum thread where various people were saying they had problems with their drives disconnecting in Big Sur. Later in the thread a lot of them were able to fix their problems by disabling sleep mode, swapping USB cables, installing Big Sur updates, etc. I’m sure some of them may have had more tricky problems like you’re having. And it sounds totally plausible that Bug Sur may have introduced some new code that causes USB drive problems that weren’t there before. Especially since Big Sur was the first to introduce M1 support. But my impression from that thread is that drives disconnecting might be kind of a common problem that could arise for a variety of reasons.

Hope you’re able to sort it out! If you do trace it back to a specific incompatibility with M1 / Monterey / certain hardware please do post a thread about it, that’ll be good to know.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Yeah it’s linked in my post, the OWC Mercury Elite Pro Dual with 3-port Hub. https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-mercury-elite-pro-dual

(Inside it are 2x 8TB WD Red drives pulled from a broken 2020 WD My Book Duo, in AppleRAID 0 with the enclosure in JBOD mode so my RAID would also work in other enclosures / in my Mac Pro too.)

I did read the Apple forum thread where various people were saying they had problems with their drives disconnecting in Big Sur. Later in the thread a lot of them were able to fix their problems by disabling sleep mode, swapping USB cables, installing Big Sur updates, etc. I’m sure some of them may have had more tricky problems like you’re having. And it sounds totally plausible that Bug Sur may have introduced some new code that causes USB drive problems that weren’t there before. Especially since Big Sur was the first to introduce M1 support. But my impression from that thread is that drives disconnecting might be kind of a common problem that could arise for a variety of reasons.

Hope you’re able to sort it out! If you do trace it back to a specific incompatibility with M1 / Monterey / certain hardware please do post a thread about it, that’ll be good to know.
Again, thank you very much for remembering to get back to me and share your success. It's good to know that someone with the same new Mac as me has found a RAID-0 HDD box that definitely works. I'll probably pick that one up soon and enjoy having a reliable RAID-0 again.

THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!

And congratulations on a great Mac and a stable RAID combo. Enjoy your new system. Other than this one issue, I’ve really been enjoying mine.
 
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tlindaas

macrumors newbie
Mar 15, 2008
21
10
SSD speed test:

Internal SSD Macbook Pro 16-inch 2021-model with M1 Pro processor: Read 5350 MB, Write 5650 MB.
One Sabrent Rocket Plus 4TB SSD in Acasis enclosure connected with Thunderbolt: Read 2770 MB, Write 2800 MB.
Two Sabrent Rocket Plus 4TB SSDs in Acasis enclosures (RAID 0) connected with Thunderbolt: Read 4330 MB, Write 5390 MB.
 

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F-Train

macrumors 68020
Apr 22, 2015
2,272
1,762
NYC & Newfoundland
SSD speed test:

Internal SSD Macbook Pro 16-inch 2021-model with M1 Pro processor: Read 5350 MB, Write 5650 MB.
One Sabrent Rocket Plus 4TB SSD in Acasis enclosure connected with Thunderbolt: Read 2770 MB, Write 2800 MB.
Two Sabrent Rocket Plus 4TB SSDs in Acasis enclosures (RAID 0) connected with Thunderbolt: Read 4330 MB, Write 5390 MB.

Great to see these results. Were the enclosures significantly hotter when in RAID configuration?
 

tlindaas

macrumors newbie
Mar 15, 2008
21
10
Great to see these results. Were the enclosures significantly hotter when in RAID configuration?
No, it's about the same. Tried to run the speed test for 30 minutes both in single drive and RAID mode and the drives feels hot when I hold them in my hands, but it is not uncomfortable to hold them. When running idle, the drives are just warm, not hot. Note that when running for half an hour the speed reduced to approximately 4 MB for both read and write in RAID mode.

Update: Just copied 1.5 TB to one of the SSDs, and it's really hot now, uncomfortable to hold in my hand.
 
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swamyg1

macrumors regular
Dec 11, 2007
234
76
I have a Thunderbay 4 with 6b on my current iMac setup… but I ordered the studio with 8tb so I don’t have to worry about external solutions anymore. The speed will be amazing!!
 
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Shamgar

macrumors regular
Jun 28, 2015
198
170
I/O speed is quirky on the Mac Studio. I just got mine in its final setup with everything transferred from my Hackintosh. I consolidated my internal drives into an OWC Thunderbay 4 (2x SSD JBOD, and 2x HDD RAID 1). The stock fan for that enclosure got the boot immediately for a Noctua NF-A9 FLX & ultra-low noise adapter. I got about 80% of the expected SATA performance in initial testing. Then I hooked it up in the actual deployed setup using the DisplayPort of the Thunderbay for my secondary 4k monitor, and I was seeing the full SATA performance I expected from my SSDs and HDDs. Weird, but whatever.

The WD SN750 m.2 drives went into a Sabrent Dual enclosure and formatted as RAID 0. That was tricky. I had to create the RAID array and then physically disconnect/reconnect the drive to have it be recognized. The array could not be recognized without the disconnect. Then I had to delete the created APFS volume to replace it with an encrypted APFS volume that I actually wanted, since RAID assistant does not give that option. Performance is about 1900 MB/s Write and 2400 MB/s Read. Less than what the drives could do (even without RAID), but about what I expected for that enclosure over TB3. Not amazing, but a very capable and capacious editing drive for my purposes. That enclosure gets toasty, by the way.

For portables, my Samsung T7 performance is at about 80% speed compared to an Intel machine, and my T5 performance drops to almost half of what it should be. USB speed negotiation is flakey in general. Some 10 Gb/s drives report as 5 Gb/s and some 5 Gb/s as 480 Mb/s. I can eventually get them to be recognized properly, but "It just works" has an asterisk.

The built-in SD card reader gets me 70/90 MB/s performance on drives that do 110/160 over a USB-C reader. Handier than grabbing said reader, but still disappointing.

As amazing as the built-in SSD is, I expected the storage experience to be inferior to my Hackintosh overall. And it is. But not disruptively so.
 

rumbobmac

macrumors newbie
May 22, 2022
11
9
Just got my MAC Studio with 1TB. Looking at this thread to see what would be a good external option for me. I will be using it mainly for pictures.
 

DRDR

macrumors regular
Jul 23, 2008
210
195
  • 2 x 1 TB NVMe in TB3 enclosures in Raid 0
  • 2 x 2 TB NVMe in one TB3 enclosure in Raid 0
  • 1 x RAID 5 Array of 4 HDD connected through eSATA to a TB3 dock
  • 1 x RAID 5 Array connected by 10 GbE to a Mac Mini for backup of the Raid 0 disks
 

MajorFubar

macrumors 68020
Oct 27, 2021
2,167
3,792
Lancashire UK
In 25 years time when all the storage, apps and OS's will be cloud-based because everyone will be on 1 GByte/S internet, how the youngsters will laugh at vintage posts like this and how their dads and granddads all had to come up with local storage and archiving solutions because cloud-storage was just too expensive and glacially slow.

[/removes tongue from cheek]
 

dizmonk

macrumors 65816
Nov 26, 2010
1,080
678
In 25 years time when all the storage, apps and OS's will be cloud-based because everyone will be on 1 GByte/S internet, how the youngsters will laugh at vintage posts like this and how their dads and granddads all had to come up with local storage and archiving solutions because cloud-storage was just too expensive and glacially slow.

[/removes tongue from cheek]
Yea and will all be broke because all the storage companies conspire and jack up prices.... :(
 
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Boomish69

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2012
402
109
London
Yea and will all be broke because all the storage companies conspire and jack up prices.... :(
lol Don't think that'll take 25 years prices seem to rise by the hour at the mo :( then there are all the greedy companies switching to subscription offering nothing in return, in 25 years can you imagine subscription prices then ! 1 kidney for a lifetime sub :)
 
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Boomish69

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2012
402
109
London
I'm artist who's been using a 2012 Mac Pro 5,1 Cheese Grater for years and have decided to purchase a Mac Studio M1 Ultra to replace it. Currently I have 6 SSDs mounted on 3 PCIe cards in the 5,1 MP and I thought that the most logical step for me is to pick up a Sonnet Echo III Desktop Thunderbolt 3 to PCIe Card Expansion System and just transfer the 3 PCIe cards with the SSDs, over to it and continue on as I have been. Any thoughts? Does that sound like a good idea or am I missing something?
I'm in the same boat but looking for way cheaper options, thaSonnect echo III is a £1k box ! Remember the speed will be limited to the 1 connection for all the drives, I'm looking at individual cheaper thunderbolt NVME adapter's that'll give the full speed of the drive, mind you I only have 2 NVME drives, the SSD's I have will only reach 600mb's so a good USB 3.1/2 dock should have the speed to cover them. Trouble is finding one cheap enough.
 

Niek D

macrumors newbie
Dec 28, 2008
13
1
I am using a Ewent 7077 4GB raid 0, and connecting it to my Studio Max is so far a confusing case of trial-and-error. The Ewent has an USB-C 3.2 gen 2 port and comes with 2 cables, USB A to C and USB C to C. And because I have a lot of hard drives and other equipment with USB-A I have an Orico 4 port USB-C to USB-A and a RSHTECH 10 port USB-C to USB A hub. Both USB-3 and 10 GB/sec and external powered.


My experience with Blackmagic disk speed so far:

Ewent directly in Studio Max USB A port: Write 400 MB/sec, Read 410 MB/sec
Ewent directly in Studio Max TB port using USB-C connector: Write 425 MB/sec, Read 385 MB/sec
Ewent directly in Studio Max C front port: Write 815 MB/sec, Read 730 MB/sec

Ewent via Orico with Apple TB to USB-A adapter in TB port: Write 430 MB/sec, Read 860 MB/sec
Ewent via RSHTECH 10 port hub in C front port via USB-C: Write 505 MB/sec, Read 550 MB/sec
Ewent via RSHTECH 10 port hub in TB port via USB-C: Write 950 MB/sec, Read 825 MB/sec

I would never have thought that the worst way to connect the drive was to put it directly in the TB port using the USB-C cable. And that it would be almost 2x faster by connecting a 10 port USB-C to USB-A hub to the TB port....
 
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