When will Apple directly compete with Surface Pro?

[flur]

I am in the files-centric boat for a couple reasons.
First, I work on projects that span different applications. When I’m working on a project, I want to have all my associated files organized in one place rather than having to look for them scattered around in different apps.
Second, in my view, apps come and go—it’s the files that I want to keep forever. And I don’t want them associated with (and possibly locked to) a particular app any more than I have to.

I’d actually prefer that apps be invisible and get out of the way of files as much as possible. But then, devs make more money when their apps are in the limelight. Of course, I’m talking about creation apps. Consumption apps are a different thing.

Edit- on second thought, this might apply to a lot of consumption apps as well.

I use Dropbox for my files and it does what you’re looking for. And you can now download and store entire directories locally. If you haven’t looked at their service, you might want to consider it.
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I have both the iOS apps (pages, keynote and numbers) and the Microsoft apps. I want to use only the Microsoft apps because I have Windows machines both at work and at home. iOS however always opens such files with the iOS apps and in the process it even creates another files and I don't want that. Can I make iOS to open such files by default with the Microsoft apps?

You should be able to open the docs in the apps. I use Dropbox to store my files, and connect it to my Microsoft apps. The apps show recent files and let you go into your file structure (locally on the iPad, on OneDrive, or Dropbox, or wherever you have set up) to select files. So when I want to open a file in Excel, I just open the app and either select it from my recent files, or select the file location and then navigate to the file. I believe you can do this with iCloud Drive as well, but I haven’t tried, so I don’t know for sure.

I don’t have any need for Pages or Numbers so I deleted them from my iPad.
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I tried the Surface three different times and returned them within a week. Hope Apple does not copy the surface.

I’d like them to steal the kickstand idea, but not put it on the device, put it on the keyboard cover. The one thing I love about the Surface is the ability to adjust it to any tilt angle for typing. I kind of hate how the kickstand digs into my legs if I’m using it on my lap, so if Apple steals that one idea, they need to design it better.

 

[secretk]

You should be able to open the docs in the apps. I use Dropbox to store my files, and connect it to my Microsoft apps. The apps show recent files and let you go into your file structure (locally on the iPad, on OneDrive, or Dropbox, or wherever you have set up) to select files. So when want to open a file in Excel, I just open the app and either select it from my recent files, or select the file location and then navigate to the file. I believe you can do this with iCloud Drive as well, but I haven’t tried, so I don’t know for sure.

Thanks for giving me your input as well. So if I understood you correctly you can use the Dropbox app to access also OneDrive space?

I don’t have any need for Pages or Numbers so I deleted them from my iPad.

That's definitely an option as well. I wanted to give iOS fair starting point so I decided to keep them just so I can test them. However the moment I realized that they have their own file extensions that I then cannot open in Windows I was like "Thanks but no thanks".

 

[flur]

Thanks for giving me your input as well. So if I understood you correctly you can use the Dropbox app to access also OneDrive space?

No, sorry, I should have been more clear. You can access various storage services and locations inside the Microsoft apps. So inside Word, I can access docs from Dropbox, OneDrive, and locally on the iPad. You can easily access full file structures, similar to how you would in the desktop application. So if you have your files setup in OneDrive, and you can pull your files from the Microsoft app rather than Files.

 

[kasakka]

Thanks for sharing your experience! That could be culprit though. I don't own an iPhone so my first attempt at working with iOS gestures is on an iPad. Maybe for a lot of people the process was starting from the iPhone where you say that it's a bit easier as you receive some sort of feedback.

I do actually have issues with the fact the screen is bigger. Some gestures require indeed larger movements that I do not find comfortable making.

When I got an iPhone XS recently the gestures just clicked. Before I was also using them on my iPad and I liked them better than clicking the home button for different things but at the same time they are not quite as easy to grasp as they are on the iPhone. I really hope iOS 13 sees more iPad centric improvements to take it away from being a big phone OS to actually making better use of that big screen.

 

[Dave-Z]

I realized that they have their own file extensions that I then cannot open in Windows I was like "Thanks but no thanks".

Pages and Numbers on iOS can save to MS formats but it's not seamless. You basically import/export every time. It's not fun because one normally saves work in progress and that ends up being a .pages file (for example) that has to be deleted when you're done exporting (otherwise you end up with duplicate files in different formats).

 

[subjonas]

I use Dropbox for my files and it does what you’re looking for. And you can now download and store entire directories locally. If you haven’t looked at their service, you might want to consider it.

I use Dropbox too. It lets me keep my files organized how I want, but sharing files back and forth with other apps is incredibly cumbersome. No default app so I have to poke through a share menu every time, then it duplicates the file to the app, then if I edit it in the app I have to manually copy the file back to dropbox, then delete both the old version in dropbox and the copy in the other app. Not sure if this is how it works with all apps, but it’s how it works with the apps I use.
And as far as I know, dropbox folder syncing is a paid only service. I don’t really want to pay an ongoing subscription for something as basic as having local access to my own files. For now I work around it with the manual sync function in Documents.

 

[secretk]

No, sorry, I should have been more clear. You can access various storage services and locations inside the Microsoft apps. So inside Word, I can access docs from Dropbox, OneDrive, and locally on the iPad. You can easily access full file structures, similar to how you would in the desktop application. So if you have your files setup in OneDrive, and you can pull your files from the Microsoft app rather than Files.

Ah now I see what you mean. Thanks. Yeah sometimes I do this too. I still have not found the most efficient workflow for me to be honest.
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When I got an iPhone XS recently the gestures just clicked. Before I was also using them on my iPad and I liked them better than clicking the home button for different things but at the same time they are not quite as easy to grasp as they are on the iPhone. I really hope iOS 13 sees more iPad centric improvements to take it away from being a big phone OS to actually making better use of that big screen.

To be honest I do use quite a lot the home button. It definitely plays a part in the true navigation because the gestures are really not intuitive for me. I have read the explanations numerous times and they still don't always work. I do not have the time or patience to try them out again and again. I am big on time efficiency. If something takes a lot of time I would just find a way to workaround it.
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Pages and Numbers on iOS can save to MS formats but it's not seamless. You basically import/export every time. It's not fun because one normally saves work in progress and that ends up being a .pages file (for example) that has to be deleted when you're done exporting (otherwise you end up with duplicate files in different formats).

You pretty much explained my struggle. I wonder how much they are used on iPad. Most probably they get used by people that have Macs and work extensively with people that have Macs so they an share those files seamlessly without issues.

 

[flur]

I use Dropbox too. It lets me keep my files organized how I want, but sharing files back and forth with other apps is incredibly cumbersome. No default app so I have to poke through a share menu every time, then it duplicates the file to the app, then if I edit it in the app I have to manually copy the file back to dropbox, then delete both the old version in dropbox and the copy in the other app. Not sure if this is how it works with all apps, but it’s how it works with the apps I use.
And as far as I know, dropbox folder syncing is a paid only service. I don’t really want to pay an ongoing subscription for something as basic as having local access to my own files. For now I work around it with the manual sync function in Documents.

It doesn’t work like that in all apps. The three that I use the most - MS Word, Excel, and Scrivener - all sync directly to the Dropbox folder and don’t make extra copies. In Word and Excel, if I want to make a copy, they ask me where I want to save, and I can save directly back to Dropbox. I believe Scrivener does the same, but I can’t recall the last time I made I copy. Obviously I haven’t used every app out there, but the only app that I regularly use files with that forces a copy is Apple Photos.

 

[Mac 128]

To me the new iPad Pro with a keyboard is basically a Surface Pro. Touch screen, keyboard, healthy processor, etc.

Pretty much the only difference overall between the two is one has no mouse support, and a limited OS.

After reading a review about the Pixel Slate, I’m thinking it’s closer to that, since the tablet portion seems to be much better than Microsoft’s effort, and that’s basically why you buy an iPad. But then, the chrome OS is there with an optional trackpad and keyboard, as well as it’s own stylus.

As Chromebooks become more popular, and the Chrome touch OS improves, this could become a potent little hybrid device.

 

[pika2000]

Despite what some youtubers wants you to think, the Surface Pro is not competing with the iPad Pro. The Surface Pro is competing with Windows ultrabooks, laptops. You rarely see Microsoft promoting the Surface Pro without its keyboard (sold separately). It's a laptop with a niche form factor, that's all. Using it as an actual tablet is painful. I know because I have one, the Surface Pro 4. Tried using it as a tablet while waiting for the keyboard to arrive, it's a fruitless experience.

 

[subjonas]

It doesn’t work like that in all apps. The three that I use the most - MS Word, Excel, and Scrivener - all sync directly to the Dropbox folder and don’t make extra copies. In Word and Excel, if I want to make a copy, they ask me where I want to save, and I can save directly back to Dropbox. I believe Scrivener does the same, but I can’t recall the last time I made I copy. Obviously I haven’t used every app out there, but the only app that I regularly use files with that forces a copy is Apple Photos.

I see. So if you save it back to dropbox, then continue editing the document in the app, does it automatically update the file in dropbox? Or do you have to manually save it to dropbox each time?

 

[Tech198]

If Apple had a 'surface like device' which docked, that would be the missing gap between a laptop & a desktop, but since Apple favors more of battery life and quality.... I doubt this would happen.

 

[sracer]

I tried the Surface three different times and returned them within a week. Hope Apple does not copy the surface.

Apple won't flat out "copy" the Surface... they'll take any path to make sure that their product is different from the Surface... even if that path is "inferior".

If Apple were to simply add a few features and make a few tweaks to iOS, they could go a long way toward competing with the Surface Pro without having to cram a desktop OS in tablet form. They can do it without compromising the current vision/path for iOS. When they do, it'll be terrific. This coming from someone who is NOT a fan of the current iPad Pros.

 

[flur]

I see. So if you save it back to dropbox, then continue editing the document in the app, does it automatically update the file in dropbox? Or do you have to manually save it to dropbox each time?

It automatically updates. It’s kind of amazing because you never really have to save, it just does.

 

[ahostmadsen]

It automatically updates. It’s kind of amazing because you never really have to save, it just does.

Yes, it works well for MS apps. But unfortunately Dropbox quite limits the apps you can do it with. For example, it seems you cannot edit Pages documents that way. You have to go into Pages and open them from there. Similarly, you cannot edit .csv files from Dropbox. You have to open them from excel. So, it does not really work like the Finder on Mac.

You can of course access Dropbox from the files app. But then, as far as I can see, you cannot search for documents or see recent documents. So, the situation is not quite ideal.

 

[flur]

Yes, it works well for MS apps. But unfortunately Dropbox quite limits the apps you can do it with. For example, it seems you cannot edit Pages documents that way. You have to go into Pages and open them from there. Similarly, you cannot edit .csv files from Dropbox. You have to open them from excel. So, it does not really work like the Finder on Mac.

You can of course access Dropbox from the files app. But then, as far as I can see, you cannot search for documents or see recent documents. So, the situation is not quite ideal.

The solution is to not use Files (or Pages, Numbers, etc.). IMO there are a handful of apps that Apple makes that are fantastic, but the majority are subpar to other offerings. I’ve found that by not using Apple apps and services, I have a much easier time with my music, files, movies, news, pretty much everything. I adore Keynote but Apple makes it unnecessarily complicated to get images into, and IMO that’s one of their best apps.

Also, just FYI, Dropbox has an API that devs can use. It’s not Dropbox limiting access for Pages, it’s Apple.

 

[QquegChristian]

Speaking of batteries, Surface pen still requires a AAAA battery, right?

It lasts a year. On a $2 battery. I’d say it’s far more cost effective and better for the environment than throwing the entire Apple Pencil away every 3 years because the battery is glued in.

It reminds me of my Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse set that I’ve had for 4 or 5 years. The keyboard takes AA batteries I feel like I’ve only ever changed twice, but the mouse is rechargeable and now I’m having to plug it in every few days as the battery is clearly dying and it’s annoying as hell. The mouse will be going into a landfill soon, but I’m sure I’ll be using the keyboard for a few more years.

Edit to add: just figured out that my mouse takes a standard rechargeable AA battery so that ain’t going into a landfill after all.

 

[ahostmadsen]

The solution is to not use Files (or Pages, Numbers, etc.). IMO there are a handful of apps that Apple makes that are fantastic, but the majority are subpar to other offerings. I’ve found that by not using Apple apps and services, I have a much easier time with my music, files, movies, news, pretty much everything. I adore Keynote but Apple makes it unnecessarily complicated to get images into, and IMO that’s one of their best apps.

Also, just FYI, Dropbox has an API that devs can use. It’s not Dropbox limiting access for Pages, it’s Apple.

Yes, I agree the MS apps are better in general. But for my specific case, MS limits input of mathematical equations in latex to Windows, whereas the Apple apps can do latex on both Mac and iOS. So I use the Apple apps sometimes.

 

[Macalway]

I'm surprised people are even discussing this. These two items are not in the same category. It's Apples/Oranges

 

[ahostmadsen]

I'm surprised people are even discussing this. These two items are not in the same category. It's Apples/Oranges

No, they have the same goal coming from two opposite directions

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/11/30/pixel-slate-wong

 

[zhenya]

It doesn’t work like that in all apps. The three that I use the most - MS Word, Excel, and Scrivener - all sync directly to the Dropbox folder and don’t make extra copies. In Word and Excel, if I want to make a copy, they ask me where I want to save, and I can save directly back to Dropbox. I believe Scrivener does the same, but I can’t recall the last time I made I copy. Obviously I haven’t used every app out there, but the only app that I regularly use files with that forces a copy is Apple Photos.

The big problem is that this kind of workflow is not consistent across the device. It works ok if you use iCloud or Dropbox and limit your workflow to apps that support working with their files directly. Unfortunately, the nature of iOS is that because there isn’t a standard file management system, every cloud storage provider has to keep their app up to date just to remain compatible, and then, (it appears to me anyhow) that every app developer must explicitly support your cloud provider of choice. It’s a ridiculous system that only works if you stay within the narrow confines of the couple most popular apps.

 

[derekamoss]

Now I know this isn't really what everyone is wishing, there is a tablet Mac company called Modbook. It's not touch screen but its in tablet form and the screen is a Wacom digitizer. Really expensive but I guess they are not catering to that crowd.

 

[flur]

The big problem is that this kind of workflow is not consistent across the device. It works ok if you use iCloud or Dropbox and limit your workflow to apps that support working with their files directly. Unfortunately, the nature of iOS is that because there isn’t a standard file management system, every cloud storage provider has to keep their app up to date just to remain compatible, and then, (it appears to me anyhow) that every app developer must explicitly support your cloud provider of choice. It’s a ridiculous system that only works if you stay within the narrow confines of the couple most popular apps.

I don’t know if it’s still true, but Dropbox was for a quite a while the most popular cloud storage service. Several of the apps I use chose to implement Dropbox support months before the even began work on supporting iCloud. Dropbox support goes well beyond a handful of popular apps. I only have a couple of apps that use files that don’t support Dropbox.

 

[subjonas]

It automatically updates. It’s kind of amazing because you never really have to save, it just does.

That’s good. I hope my apps can do that someday.

 

[Booji]

Perhaps never, but it looks like Microsoft is going to take the surface concept big https://www.techspot.com/news/77665-leaks-reveal-next-five-major-updates-microsoft-surface.html