Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[JT2002TJ]

Tesla issues massive recall of more than 2 million vehicles over autopilot safety concerns

The recall includes the 2012-2023 Model S, 2016-2023 Model X, 2017-2023 Model 3 and 2020-2023 Model Y equipped with Autosteer, a feature Tesla describes as “traffic-aware cruise control.”

www.nbcnews.com

I don't know anyone with a Tesla who actually makes regular use of the Autopilot feature (or has even used it at all), but this recall doesn't surprise me.

I use FSD for as much as 90% of my driving, and I am in my TMY 3 hours a weekday. I commute from Long Island to Brooklyn and back (26 miles door to door).

FSD/Autopilot have their quirks, but is very predictable. I am on the latest Betas for both my TM3 and TMY.

All they are going to do (from my understanding) is just increase the nagging which monitors the driver’s attention with the internal camera and steering wheel inputs. I can’t see it increasing much more than already exists on the latest betas. The problem is there is a WIDE range of OS’ people are on, major of which are not on FSD Betas. I think it is more for these user, they have less nags then we do. The later Betas already very quickly warn you if you pick up your phone, or look at the screen too long.

There are suspensions of Beta. I think they may extend suspensions to Autopilot as well (right now you lose the current trip for Autopilot abuse, but not for the next trip).

You have to pay attention, and should learn how the system works, and where it needs help. Just like with anything, once you learn it, you will know when to take over, and when you can sit back a little more.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I use FSD for as much as 90% of my driving, and I am in my TMY 3 hours a weekday. I commute from Long Island to Brooklyn and back (26 miles door to door).

FSD/Autopilot have their quirks, but is very predictable. I am on the latest Betas for both my TM3 and TMY.

All they are going to do (from my understanding) is just increase the nagging which monitors the driver’s attention with the internal camera and steering wheel inputs. I can’t see it increasing much more than already exists on the latest betas. The problem is there is a WIDE range of OS’ people are on, major of which are not on FSD Betas. I think it is more for these user, they have less nags then we do. The later Betas already very quickly warn you if you pick up your phone, or look at the screen too long.

There are suspensions of Beta. I think they may extend suspensions to Autopilot as well (right now you lose the current trip for Autopilot abuse, but not for the next trip).

You have to pay attention, and should learn how the system works, and where it needs help. Just like with anything, once you learn it, you will know when to take over, and when you can sit back a little more.

Exactly that is how I read the recall. Not that there is actually anything wrong with the system, but that it was determined that the controls demanding driver's attention weren't prominent enough and not preventing driver abuse sufficiently.

With Polestar, there is similar abuse, I know of drivers who buy gadgets from aliexpress and the likes to 'trick' the computer into that they are paying attention and have their hands on the steering wheel whilst they don't.

Personally, I think it is good that they are made to do improve this. I really don't agree with drivers abusing the safety features.

 

[diamond.g]

Exactly that is how I read the recall. Not that there is actually anything wrong with the system, but that it was determined that the controls demanding driver's attention weren't prominent enough and not preventing driver abuse sufficiently.

With Polestar, there is similar abuse, I know of drivers who buy gadgets from aliexpress and the likes to 'trick' the computer into that they are paying attention and have their hands on the steering wheel whilst they don't.

Personally, I think it is good that they are made to do improve this. I really don't agree with drivers abusing the safety features.

My only ask is that NHTSA makes whatever they come up with a standard so users can go between brands and the ADAS features would react the same way to inattention. Currently it is a crapshoot on how each brands vehicle will react to a user not paying attention to the road like they should when using said ADAS features.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Exactly that is how I read the recall. Not that there is actually anything wrong with the system, but that it was determined that the controls demanding driver's attention weren't prominent enough and not preventing driver abuse sufficiently.

With Polestar, there is similar abuse, I know of drivers who buy gadgets from aliexpress and the likes to 'trick' the computer into that they are paying attention and have their hands on the steering wheel whilst they don't.

Personally, I think it is good that they are made to do improve this. I really don't agree with drivers abusing the safety features.

There are these same devices for Tesla, steering wheel weights. I have one, but have never taken it out the box. I bought it as I was waiting for my first Tesla (it was used, but took 2 weeks to take delivery), but after using FSDb (beta) for a week, I realized I didn't need it. I can see a use case for it on a long road trip in a place like Texas. The interior camera still monitors the user, but Tesla's steering wheel user input isn't the best for the user (it is the cheapest for production). Some other manufacturers simply use a steering wheel contact sensor, Tesla requires applying torque to the steering wheel. This gets annoying especially if the road is straight. Also, if you are not "used" to the system, applying torque can make the system think you want to take over. When I let others drive to see the FSDb system, it takes several times for them to learn how to apply just enough torque, but not too much... When I was learning, in the NY City metroplex, there were several times it was nagging during a turn, where I applied too much torque and it dropped out of FSDb during a turn. I was ready, but having the input be the same thing as what you use to take over isn't ideal.

So, there are some things I do disagree with in Tesla's designs. I do not have this problem anymore, I know the right touch, but this clearly isn't the best design for new drivers.

I don't agree with using the avoidance devices, but I also think applying torque to the steering wheel to demonstrate attention also isn't the best way, especially since there is an internal camera that is actually monitoring where your eyes are looking. This to me should be enough...

 

[JT2002TJ]

My only ask is that NHTSA makes whatever they come up with a standard so users can go between brands and the ADAS features would react the same way to inattention. Currently it is a crapshoot on how each brands vehicle will react to a user not paying attention to the road like they should when using said ADAS features.

I agree, I think they should be camera based, they can see where you are looking, anything else is easy to fool the system.

 

[JT2002TJ]

US Tesla buyer question:

What are your thoughts on the new 2024 M3 Highland Tesla ?

Would you buy an older '23 M3 with the full tax credit before 2023 ends or get the '24 M3 with half credit applied at time of purchase (POS)?

Just an FYI, this is what I was warning about, not knowing for sure about tax credits and waiting... You have to take delivery by 12/31/23 to get a tax credit on TM3's now...

Tesla signals Model Y also losing full $7,500 tax credit

Tesla is signaling that along with two trims of Model 3 losing all their federal tax credit next year, Model...

electrek.co

 

[I7guy]

There are these same devices for Tesla, steering wheel weights. I have one, but have never taken it out the box. I bought it as I was waiting for my first Tesla (it was used, but took 2 weeks to take delivery), but after using FSDb (beta) for a week, I realized I didn't need it. I can see a use case for it on a long road trip in a place like Texas. The interior camera still monitors the user, but Tesla's steering wheel user input isn't the best for the user (it is the cheapest for production). Some other manufacturers simply use a steering wheel contact sensor, Tesla requires applying torque to the steering wheel. This gets annoying especially if the road is straight. Also, if you are not "used" to the system, applying torque can make the system think you want to take over. When I let others drive to see the FSDb system, it takes several times for them to learn how to apply just enough torque, but not too much... When I was learning, in the NY City metroplex, there were several times it was nagging during a turn, where I applied too much torque and it dropped out of FSDb during a turn. I was ready, but having the input be the same thing as what you use to take over isn't ideal.

So, there are some things I do disagree with in Tesla's designs. I do not have this problem anymore, I know the right touch, but this clearly isn't the best design for new drivers.

I don't agree with using the avoidance devices, but I also think applying torque to the steering wheel to demonstrate attention also isn't the best way, especially since there is an internal camera that is actually monitoring where your eyes are looking. This to me should be enough...

As far as applying torque, it is said you can also press or roll the right steering wheel button. I never tried, because after a while I developed the right touch. But it is a learning experience.

 

[I7guy]

I use FSD for as much as 90% of my driving, and I am in my TMY 3 hours a weekday. I commute from Long Island to Brooklyn and back (26 miles door to door).

FSD/Autopilot have their quirks, but is very predictable. I am on the latest Betas for both my TM3 and TMY.

All they are going to do (from my understanding) is just increase the nagging which monitors the driver’s attention with the internal camera and steering wheel inputs. I can’t see it increasing much more than already exists on the latest betas. The problem is there is a WIDE range of OS’ people are on, major of which are not on FSD Betas. I think it is more for these user, they have less nags then we do. The later Betas already very quickly warn you if you pick up your phone, or look at the screen too long.

There are suspensions of Beta. I think they may extend suspensions to Autopilot as well (right now you lose the current trip for Autopilot abuse, but not for the next trip).

You have to pay attention, and should learn how the system works, and where it needs help. Just like with anything, once you learn it, you will know when to take over, and when you can sit back a little more.

I don't know how you do the commute (meaning LIE, GCP or Belt with or without the BQE thrown in), but going from LI to Brooklyn with FSD would make me more anxious than actually driving. The level of monitoring to make sure FSD(b) doesn't make a mistake would to me be very stressful. I'd rather just drive or even use autopilot (or navigate on autopilot)

 

[I7guy]

Just an FYI, this is what I was warning about, not knowing for sure about tax credits and waiting... You have to take delivery by 12/31/23 to get a tax credit on TM3's now...

Tesla signals Model Y also losing full $7,500 tax credit

Tesla is signaling that along with two trims of Model 3 losing all their federal tax credit next year, Model...

electrek.co

Tesla will just lower the retail price. In NJ though I think the state tax incentives still stand and there is no tax on EV purchases. The M3 highland is a cracking update, but I have no buyers remorse whatsoever. I took delivery of the car in August and got a great deal.

 

[JT2002TJ]

As far as applying torque, it is said you can also press or roll the right steering wheel button. I never tried, because after a while I developed the right touch. But it is a learning experience.

Yes. Rolling either steering wheel dial does meet the driver's input algorithm's requirements. I do use it as well, but find myself doing the steering wheel torque more, since you can apply it anywhere on the wheel.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I use the steering wheel torque as well, it's second nature and makes sense to me in a level 2/3 car. But level 4/5 not so much.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I don't know how you do the commute (meaning LIE, GCP or Belt with or without the BQE thrown in), but going from LI to Brooklyn with FSD would make me more anxious than actually driving. The level of monitoring to make sure FSD(b) doesn't make a mistake would to me be very stressful. I'd rather just drive or even use autopilot (or navigate on autopilot)

It is predictable. I go NSP/GCP to Jackie Robinson to Eastern Parkway then side streets. So, I do not have a lot of exits/merges onto highways. I typically will disengage at specific points (I engage after getting onto NSP, then disengage at the merger between GCP and Jackie Robinson, then reengage. I cover the go pedal (in case it decides to slow down when I disagree) and am ready to take over at any point. On the commute home (mostly slow-moving traffic) it is AWESOME, I do feather the go pedal to minimize the gap (otherwise other drivers will cut you off to get in).

On the commute home, I typically make my way over to the LIE and use the HOV lane. I find that Tesla's GPS will want to route me back over to NSP, even though I want to stay on the LIE until my exit (my exit has the LIE and NSP within blocks of each other). To defeat this, I turn off my GPS destination until after the NSP exit off of LIE.

So, after almost of year of using FSDb, I find it very very predictable. I know the quirks, and my "I'm not relying on FSDb" moments. With each update I test out each of my checklist items (where I'll take over) to see if FSDb has improved. If not, I continue to take it over, and send voice feedback on the issue.

A good example is, if you go to an intersection that is more than 4 points, you better be ready to give it go pedal, or take over. There is one intersection near me, where it will yield when you have the right of way, by pressing the go pedal it will keep going.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Tesla will just lower the retail price. In NJ though I think the state tax incentives still stand and there is no tax on EV purchases. The M3 highland is a cracking update, but I have no buyers remorse whatsoever. I took delivery of the car in August and got a great deal.

They may, but they may not. I think you did the right thing and also were advocating for that poster to not wait. When the discussion was going there, I point I was going to make was that there was a big risk in missing the tax credit because we don't even know when highland will hit the US. I would think it is more likely to happen now that the tax credit won't be available on the TM3, because why would they shut down a factory to retool, which would cut production numbers during a time when customers can take advantage of a HUGE discount that costs Tesla $0 in profits? Now that this is gone, it makes more sense to make the transition...

 

[4sallypat]

Just an FYI, this is what I was warning about, not knowing for sure about tax credits and waiting... You have to take delivery by 12/31/23 to get a tax credit on TM3's now...

Tesla signals Model Y also losing full $7,500 tax credit

Tesla is signaling that along with two trims of Model 3 losing all their federal tax credit next year, Model...

electrek.co

Unfortunately the wife is not ready to buy a Tesla this year, much less the old outgoing M3.

She said she will wait for the '24 Highland M3 facelifted version - her concerns: sound dampening inside and ride harshness is her concern.

Hoping a possibility that Tesla could cut prices further to compensate in 2024 much to the bane of other EV manufacturers....

 

[JT2002TJ]

Unfortunately the wife is not ready to buy a Tesla this year, much less the old outgoing M3.

She said she will wait for the '24 Highland M3 facelifted version - her concerns: sound dampening inside and ride harshness is her concern.

Hoping a possibility that Tesla could cut prices further to compensate in 2024 much to the bane of other EV manufacturers....

This makes perfect sense. If the wife is happy paying full price to get what will make her happy, then a rebate/tax credit is simply a bonus but not a priority.

I hope you get the best of both worlds, and selfishly, I want to see continued increases in Tesla sales. The better Tesla does, the better my Tesla experience will be as a Tesla owner x2.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Got quite a long trip today in our Q4 and it’s interesting just how much range, or predicted range is lost in colder weather. A car that predicts 290 miles on a full charge a few months ago now says 206 miles.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Got quite a long trip today in our Q4 and it’s interesting just how much range, or predicted range is lost in colder weather. A car that predicts 290 miles on a full charge a few months ago now says 206 miles.

The driving style will also factor. I assume you use heated seats rather than heat the cabin etc? Mine doesn’t lose that high a % on long trips.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

The driving style will also factor. I assume you use heated seats rather than heat the cabin etc? Mine doesn’t lose that high a % on long trips.

No we use both occasionally, all on very low though. That shouldn’t lose over 80 miles on the predicted range though. It’ll probably all change once we start driving, well I hope so at least.

 

[Apple fanboy]

No we use both occasionally, all on very low though. That shouldn’t lose over 80 miles on the predicted range though. It’ll probably all change once we start driving, well I hope so at least.

It makes quite a difference actually. But so does the cold, wet roads etc. Remember your ICE car produces heat which you just direct into the cabin in winter.
In an EV you are using an electric heater effectively.
I tend to wrap up warmer on a long drive to extend my range.
For normal day to day driving I don’t. I’ve dropped from 4.2 to 4.1 miles per kWh this winter.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

It makes quite a difference actually. But so does the cold, wet roads etc. Remember your ICE car produces heat which you just direct into the cabin in winter.
In an EV you are using an electric heater effectively.
I tend to wrap up warmer on a long drive to extend my range.
For normal day to day driving I don’t. I’ve dropped from 4.2 to 4.1 miles per kWh this winter.

It ended being more efficient than the app was suggesting and we covered 126 miles and used 48% of the battery, all motorway and set to 73mph. Not too bad and just topping it up now on a Tesla supercharger to make sure we have no issues tomorrow when we head home.

Sods law, this was only the second time we’ve charged in public an we ended up wasting 10 mins trying to get a charger to work that was faulty, without realising. All very easy on a working one, and 85p per kW which isn’t too expensive.

 

[Apple fanboy]

It ended being more efficient than the app was suggesting and we covered 126 miles and used 48% of the battery, all motorway and set to 73mph. Not too bad and just topping it up now on a Tesla supercharger to make sure we have no issues tomorrow when we head home.

Sods law, this was only the second time we’ve charged in public an we ended up wasting 10 mins trying to get a charger to work that was faulty, without realising. All very easy on a working one, and 85p per kW which isn’t too expensive.

It happens. But at least there was another one to go use. I tend to set mine to 65 mph. Helps with the range.

 

[culo77]

Got quite a long trip today in our Q4 and it’s interesting just how much range, or predicted range is lost in colder weather. A car that predicts 290 miles on a full charge a few months ago now says 206 miles.

That dang Guess-O-Meter is always smoking crack when it's witner. I don't think it really can calc the real range so it just says "well what was the efficiency the last 20 miles driven and what is the battery temp right now, I will just tell my owner not to expect too much".

A cold soaked battery will not regen, and use battery juice to warm its self, then it doesn't get to scavenge a combustion heat to heat the passengers. But once its to temp its all normal, yet the Guess-O-Meter calc's current state and previous used efficiency and not factoring that driving will warm it all up quick, so its pessimistic in winter.

My car sits outside at work cold soaking for 8 hours so my drive home my miles per kwh is brutal for the short drive home. Drive is not long enough to warm the battery but long enough for my Guess-O-Meter to use that drive for its sole factor, so that in the next morning even though my car is plugged in and preconditioning in the garage it says I get almost half of my summer range.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

That dang Guess-O-Meter is always smoking crack when it's witner. I don't think it really can calc the real range so it just says "well what was the efficiency the last 20 miles driven and what is the battery temp right now, I will just tell my owner not to expect too much".

A cold soaked battery will not regen, and use battery juice to warm its self, then it doesn't get to scavenge a combustion heat to heat the passengers. But once its to temp its all normal, yet the Guess-O-Meter calc's current state and previous used efficiency and not factoring that driving will warm it all up quick, so its pessimistic in winter.

My car sits outside at work cold soaking for 8 hours so my drive home my miles per kwh is brutal for the short drive home. Drive is not long enough to warm the battery but long enough for my Guess-O-Meter to use that drive for its sole factor, so that in the next morning even though my car is plugged in and preconditioning in the garage it says I get almost half of my summer range.

Absolutely. We preconditioned the battery before setting off and the range estimate was fluctuating in the first 10 miles or so, but ended up being ok. They do need to work on the public costs though for charging. It cost us £57 to top up (48%) which is literally twice the price of diesel for the same range at the moment. I know people say you’re paying extra for the convenience of fast charging, but it’s not even convenient when it takes an hour. I am still not fully convinced the technology is ready for mass adoption yet and this experience has reminded me of my reservations before we got the EV. I don’t plan on getting rid of my ICE car just yet, as it’s a great option to fall back on for the longer journeys.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

If you drive your EV in cold weather, this video can be very informative:

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Unfortunately the wife is not ready to buy a Tesla this year, much less the old outgoing M3.

She said she will wait for the '24 Highland M3 facelifted version - her concerns: sound dampening inside and ride harshness is her concern.

Hoping a possibility that Tesla could cut prices further to compensate in 2024 much to the bane of other EV manufacturers....

Smart lady. The new one is so much better. I was never interested in the old one, found it more Toyota opposed to something enjoyable. The new one has given me hope that Tesla can play in the premium segment and I would now consider one.