Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[yoak]

I’ve learned it’s best to just avoid and not listen to the EV experts, ie those who have never driven an EV. They know everything and it’s all bad.

Your car looks in good nick and you’ve clearly had a good experience with it. I was browsing Tesla Model 3’s earlier on Autotrader and there are a few 3-4 year old long range models for £22k-£25k with less than 30k miles. Depends on your budget but they are apparently a reliable secondhand buy according to WhatCar.

I bought a 3 year old TM3 LR last December. I wanted a car that had some time left on the warranty. The car has been great, and the few things that need to be fixed (Heating/AC and a crack in the rear window) was promptly taken care of by Tesla and fixed under warranty. They even gave me a loaner when they had to wait for a parts one time.

 

[SalisburySam]

I wouldn’t mind betting the Tesla Model 2 will still produce 350 miles on a full charge which is adequate.

At this time I’d take that bet; my guess would be around 200 miles for the M2. Yes, batteries are improving but in an EV the battery size is the biggest cost discriminator so likely the first target to be reduced for small physical size. Second might be the amount of framing/skin/structure metal needed for a smaller vehicle. Other than those two things, the rest of the car cost savings are much smaller (smaller/less capable tires, maybe only one front wiper, non-laminated side glass, and the like). Tesla has already eliminated radars, ultrasonic sensors, rain sensors so no savings to be had there vs. the Models3/Y. Hope I’m wrong.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Here in Europe they strip free charging (if the car has had it), enable enhanced autopilot (but with FSD hardware), remainder of original warranty (which was 4 years) plus 1 year extra; and during that year also pan-european roadside assistance and recovery, and a 30 day premium connect trial.

But what irks me is that you can't see and try the cars, especially considering the bad experiences I've had with all Tesla's so far where Tesla themselves don't seem to realise they are broken. You can exchange within 14 days, but you don't know whether you have a good one until you get it and paid in full. And when rejecting is there another? Nope, don't like the model at all....

Yeah, they are stripping the lifetime supercharging, and lifetime premium connectivity, but I think that lifetime supercharging was only available until 2018 (so only one year model of the Model 3, and never on the Model Y). Most, if not all of the vehicles that came with lifetime supercharging were out of the bumper-to-bumper warranty by the time I was shopping last year.

I was nervous with buying unseen, but after my experience with my TM3, it was settled. I also bought my '21 TMY 7-seater the same way. During delivery inspection of the TMY, I pointed out all the issues I found, it resulted in tesla replacing 3 door skins (drivers, passenger front, and passenger rear). The bumper-to-bumper warranty addressed any other issues I found. In the end, I have 2 vehicles that look almost new, drive perfectly, have Acceleration Boost, and FSD.

Another good thing is, here most used from Tesla vehicles are off lease. Tesla never (as I understand it) allowed lease buyouts on 3/Y, and have stopped on the S/X. Because of this, and how strict Tesla is on lease returns (I would never lease from Tesla), they are really in good shape when they go up for sale.

EDIT: It is a good thing that I had the bumper-to-bumper on my 2019 TM3, it has the PCS failure issue. Apparently, it is more common in 2018 and earlier TM3s. It would have been a $1,800 job after warranty, and isn't covered under the battery/powertrain warranty.

 

[JT2002TJ]

At this time I’d take that bet; my guess would be around 200 miles for the M2. Yes, batteries are improving but in an EV the battery size is the biggest cost discriminator so likely the first target to be reduced for small physical size. Second might be the amount of framing/skin/structure metal needed for a smaller vehicle. Other than those two things, the rest of the car cost savings are much smaller (smaller/less capable tires, maybe only one front wiper, non-laminated side glass, and the like). Tesla has already eliminated radars, ultrasonic sensors, rain sensors so no savings to be had there vs. the Models3/Y. Hope I’m wrong.

I agree with this. If there is a TM2 coming out, it will likely have a smaller battery pack vs the TM3/Y. So, it will likely have a smaller range. They may get around this by using the LFP battery so the owners can us 100% of their battery pack regularly.

If they come out with a TM2 as a car, I can see them also coming out with a compact SUV version that shares 70%+ of parts, like the TM3/Y do.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Yeah, they are stripping the lifetime supercharging, and lifetime premium connectivity, but I think that lifetime supercharging was only available until 2018 (so only one year model of the Model 3, and never on the Model Y). Most, if not all of the vehicles that came with lifetime supercharging were out of the bumper-to-bumper warranty by the time I was shopping last year.

I was nervous with buying unseen, but after my experience with my TM3, it was settled. I also bought my '21 TMY 7-seater the same way. During delivery inspection of the TMY, I pointed out all the issues I found, it resulted in tesla replacing 3 door skins (drivers, passenger front, and passenger rear). The bumper-to-bumper warranty addressed any other issues I found. In the end, I have 2 vehicles that look almost new, drive perfectly, have Acceleration Boost, and FSD.

Another good thing is, here most used from Tesla vehicles are off lease. Tesla never (as I understand it) allowed lease buyouts on 3/Y, and have stopped on the S/X. Because of this, and how strict Tesla is on lease returns (I would never lease from Tesla), they are really in good shape when they go up for sale.

EDIT: It is a good thing that I had the bumper-to-bumper on my 2019 TM3, it has the PCS failure issue. Apparently, it is more common in 2018 and earlier TM3s. It would have been a $1,800 job after warranty, and isn't covered under the battery/powertrain warranty.

Yes you are right. Over here it is mainly Model S and X that had free supercharging. And as a headline it sounds great, but actually those cars were pre-raven and even supercharging is slow by today's standards and expectations, and the charging curves on that battery technology is not great either. Combine that with the fact that for the majority of journeys they start and end at the home, it was a really great marketing gimmick.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Yes you are right. Over here it is mainly Model S and X that had free supercharging. And as a headline it sounds great, but actually those cars were pre-raven and even supercharging is slow by today's standards and expectations, and the charging curves on that battery technology is not great either. Combine that with the fact that for the majority of journeys they start and end at the home, it was a really great marketing gimmick.

Yeah, I would have to go out of my way to use a supercharger... So, even if it was free for me, I would never really use it.

I do wish they weren't stripping the lifetime connectivity, that's a $100 savings per year of a functionality. Also, we aren't exactly sure what Tesla is going to do going forward with "Standard Connectivity." This could lose GPS, the manual is purposely vague about what comes with standard connectivity.

 

[diamond.g]

Yeah, I would have to go out of my way to use a supercharger... So, even if it was free for me, I would never really use it.

I do wish they weren't stripping the lifetime connectivity, that's a $100 savings per year of a functionality. Also, we aren't exactly sure what Tesla is going to do going forward with "Standard Connectivity." This could lose GPS, the manual is purposely vague about what comes with standard connectivity.

I thought it was a "done deal" on what comes with "Standard Connectivity".


They have to leave GPS because FSD needs that data, and the packages are separate...

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I think for all cars, not just EV or Tesla, ongoing connectivity will make them more money than the rest of the car business. I'm in two minds about it, I can appreciate that it cost money to have the infrastructure and services, also that data costs money, but they really have to offer a good service for it that makes it worthwhile. We should also have a choice of data (eSim) provider.

Jaguar Land Rover is a good example; this week they've blocked all third-party access to the API's and thus vehicle. This means that many people can't consume flexible on-demand pricing for charging at home. I'm all up for security (the cited reason) but surely, there are ways around it and work with a good security protocol. So after many year the iPace is all of a sudden severely limited, and you have to pay for the services...

 

[diamond.g]

I think for all cars, not just EV or Tesla, ongoing connectivity will make them more money than the rest of the car business. I'm in two minds about it, I can appreciate that it cost money to have the infrastructure and services, also that data costs money, but they really have to offer a good service for it that makes it worthwhile. We should also have a choice of data (eSim) provider.

Jaguar Land Rover is a good example; this week they've blocked all third-party access to the API's and thus vehicle. This means that many people can't consume flexible on-demand pricing for charging at home. I'm all up for security (the cited reason) but surely, there are ways around it and work with a good security protocol. So after many year the iPace is all of a sudden severely limited, and you have to pay for the services...

To be honest I think Tesla is the only manufacturer that doesn't actually make you pay for remote access to your vehicle (outside of viewing the vehicle cameras in the app). Most give you access for a time period, then have you pay later on.

Same thing with the Advanced ADAS. Folks like to complain about Tesla charging 12k for FSD, but others (like Ford and GM) will charge you for the hardware then charge you yearly/monthly to use it. IIRC Bluecruise is 800 a year after the 90 day trial, GM requires the 25/mo add-on for Supercruise in addition to your OnStar plan after the 3 year trial.

 

[JT2002TJ]

To be honest I think Tesla is the only manufacturer that doesn't actually make you pay for remote access to your vehicle (outside of viewing the vehicle cameras in the app). Most give you access for a time period, then have you pay later on.

Same thing with the Advanced ADAS. Folks like to complain about Tesla charging 12k for FSD, but others (like Ford and GM) will charge you for the hardware then charge you yearly/monthly to use it. IIRC Bluecruise is 800 a year after the 90 day trial, GM requires the 25/mo add-on for Supercruise in addition to your OnStar plan after the 3 year trial.

I am a huge Tesla fan, but just like other manufactures if you do the FSD subscription it is $200 per month. So technically, Tesla also charges you for the hardware, and monthly to use it (unless you buy the lifetime at the current price of $12k).

I don't know enough about the other systems like BlueCruise to know if they offer some kind of traffic aware cruise control free, like Tesla does with Auto Pilot. So perhaps that is the difference you are talking about.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I thought it was a "done deal" on what comes with "Standard Connectivity".


They have to leave GPS because FSD needs that data, and the packages are separate...

It is vague, but we don't know since 8 years haven't passed yet. I think the rules were different for S/X when they were new, they all had lifetime up until the 3/Y's were out, so I don't think anyone actually knows what will happen yet.

Here is the current info from Tesla's US site:

All Tesla vehicles come with access to Standard Connectivity. Standard Connectivity is included in your vehicle, at no additional cost, for eight years beginning on the first day your vehicle was delivered as new by Tesla or the first day it is put into service (for example, used as a demonstrator or service vehicle), whichever comes first. If you are purchasing a used vehicle, you will be notified of how long your vehicle will include access to Standard Connectivity. With Standard Connectivity, you have access to most connectivity features over Wi-Fi, in addition to basic maps and navigation and music streaming over Bluetooth®.

Source:

Connectivity | Tesla Support

Connectivity is an important part of all Tesla vehicles, further enhancing the driving experience by providing access to features that require data usage. Find out more about Standard and Premium Connectivity.

www.tesla.com

 

[diamond.g]

I am a huge Tesla fan. If you do the FSD subscription it is $200 per month. So technically, Tesla also charges you for the hardware, and monthly to use it (unless you buy the lifetime at the current price of $12k).

I don't know enough about the other systems like BlueCruise to know if they offer some kind of traffic aware cruise control free, like Tesla does with Auto Pilot.

That is kind of semantics, since you can buy a Ford/GM without the supercruise hardware and never be able to add it in if you wanted to use the feature.

I think for BlueCruise/SuperCruise if you don't pay you lose the lane centering, but retain lane keep assist.

 

[JT2002TJ]

That is kind of semantics, since you can buy a Ford/GM without the supercruise hardware and never be able to add it in if you wanted to use the feature.

I think for BlueCruise/SuperCruise if you don't pay you lose the lane centering, but retain lane keep assist.

Ah, I didn't know the hardware was an option. Yeah, Tesla uses the same hardware for both AP and FSD, they just limit the software if you don't buy monthly/lifetime FSD.

 

[diamond.g]

It is vague, but we don't know since 8 years haven't passed yet. I think the rules were different for S/X when they were new, they all had lifetime up until the 3/Y's were out, so I don't think anyone actually knows what will happen yet.

Here is the current info from Tesla's US site:





View attachment 2356483

View attachment 2356484

Source:

Connectivity | Tesla Support

Connectivity is an important part of all Tesla vehicles, further enhancing the driving experience by providing access to features that require data usage. Find out more about Standard and Premium Connectivity.

www.tesla.com

Ah, I had forgotten that Tesla added that 8 year verbiage. Yeah won't know how that will turn out for folks for another 2 years, since they started this whole thing connectivity plan thing sometime in 2018/2019 (if memory serves).

 

[diamond.g]

Actually belay my previous, looks like we wont know until 2030 since every Tesla delivered before 2022 has Standard Connectivity for life.

Connectivity | Tesla Support

Connectivity is an important part of all Tesla vehicles, further enhancing the driving experience by providing access to features that require data usage. Find out more about Standard and Premium Connectivity.

www.tesla.com

 

[JT2002TJ]

Actually belay my previous, looks like we wont know until 2030 since every Tesla delivered before 2022 has Standard Connectivity for life.

Connectivity | Tesla Support

Connectivity is an important part of all Tesla vehicles, further enhancing the driving experience by providing access to features that require data usage. Find out more about Standard and Premium Connectivity.

www.tesla.com

It is confusing, is it initial order? I have a 2019 TM3 and a 2021 TMY but I purchased both in 2023. I had to "order" it on Tesla's Website. So, do mine fall under the initial order date, or the day I ordered them from Telsa's used inventory...

I have actual "Order Agreements" as part of my listed set of documents provided by Tesla, with the dates I placed the online order...

EDIT: The reason I say this is, if you look at the next question, about Premium Connectivity, we know they are getting stripped from vehicle resold by Tesla, just like lifetime supercharging:

EDIT 2: Standard Connectivity, Premium Connectivity and Lifetime Supercharging are being stripped. I will not have Standard Connectivity after 8 years of initial service connection since I purchased both after 7/20/22...

 

[diamond.g]

It is confusing, is it initial order? I have a 2019 TM3 and a 2021 TMY but I purchased both in 2023. I had to "order" it on Tesla's Website. So, do mine fall under the initial order date, or the day I ordered them from Telsa's used inventory...

I have actual "Order Agreements" as part of my listed set of documents provided by Tesla, with the dates I placed the online order...

EDIT: The reason I say this is, if you look at the next question, about Premium Connectivity, we know they are getting stripped from vehicle resold by Tesla, just like lifetime supercharging:

View attachment 2356507

It says ordered. So I assume you should be good. I was/am bitter about the PC thing cause I got my first 3 in August of 2018 (50k VIN) and it was totaled in January, Tesla wouldn't transfer it (PC) to the replacement car.

 

[JT2002TJ]

It says ordered. So I assume you should be good. I was/am bitter about the PC thing cause I got my first 3 in August of 2018 (50k VIN) and it was totaled in January, Tesla wouldn't transfer it (PC) to the replacement car.

I edited my post (a second time), then next question gave a definitive answer that I will not have it.

For your response about PC, I would have fought the insurance company (if not your fault) to pay for the PC for a new Tesla for the average life expectancy of a car. So if it's $99 a year, and the average life expectancy in your area is 8-10 years I would have fought to have them pay $800-$1,000 on top of the totaled value.

That's really on the insurance company, not Tesla. But I agree, I would be pissed too...

 

[4sallypat]

Ford is now able to charge at Tesla SC in North America.

Ford is sending a free charging adapter (NACS-CCS1).

Mine should be here in May!

 

[quagmire]

It's certainly odd how the adapter works with superchargers, but not the destination/wall charger and will need yet another adapter.

 

[4sallypat]

It's certainly odd how the adapter works with superchargers, but not the destination/wall charger and will need yet another adapter.

Yes, the DC Fast charging Tesla SuperChargers are CCS1 compatible with the adapter.
Assuming the Tesla SC has the updated hardware & software - only V3 and V4 will work with Ford EVs.

For Tesla's Destination charger using L2 (240V AC), adapter is different ( NACS-J1772) but is less expensive and readily available.

 

[JT2002TJ]

It's certainly odd how the adapter works with superchargers, but not the destination/wall charger and will need yet another adapter.

That is strange. Do DC CCS vehicles use the top part for AC charging? The top part (the circle, J1772)?

I know 0 about them, other than when I use an AC J1772 to NACS for my Teslas. It seems like the J1772 part plugs into cars without needing them to lower the flap. So, they probably removed the parts that are J1772 AC related from the DC adapter to save cost.

 

[diamond.g]

That is strange. Do DC CCS vehicles use the top part for AC charging? The top part (the circle, J1772)?

I know 0 about them, other than when I use an AC J1772 to NACS for my Teslas. It seems like the J1772 part plugs into cars without needing them to lower the flap. So, they probably removed the parts that are J1772 AC related from the DC adapter to save cost.

The CCS1 adapter (as far as I am aware) doesn't carry the AC power pins, only the data pins. Note that CCS1 doesn't have those pins populated anyways. Could someone make an adapter that has both? Yeah. Will they, probably not.

 

[jz0309]

That is strange. Do DC CCS vehicles use the top part for AC charging? The top part (the circle, J1772)?

I know 0 about them, other than when I use an AC J1772 to NACS for my Teslas. It seems like the J1772 part plugs into cars without needing them to lower the flap. So, they probably removed the parts that are J1772 AC related from the DC adapter to save cost.

yes, L1/2 use the top part only.
There's a post on the bolt forum that explains exactly, need to find it again and then will put a link here
Edit:found it:

What we know about NACS and Adapters

We are seeing a lot of confusion regarding the transition to NACS. This article attempts to be a resource to help clear some of the confusion, but admittedly, there are details that are yet to be made public. Updates will be made as we learn more. What is NACS? NACS (SAE J3400) is the so...

www.chevybolt.org

 

[diamond.g]

Ya'll tracking the Rivian R2/R3 reveal?